Irina Gen received a five-year suspended sentence and has been barred from working in state schools
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Who let the glowies in here? 🤔

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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Whenever I see a poll about Russian public opinion, I think about people like this teacher. How can people have truly formed their own opinions when public debate gets your life ruined, or worse?

yes!

whenever ppl try to point out that hey, maybe a state-funded agency directly asking people potentially incriminating questions with serious prison time in the streets (not even accounting for the respondent biases of polling methods themselves), isn’t the most reliable metric to measure something, you get called a paid troll or something

This is true everywhere, only to a lesser degree

You could say that for any number of things. LGBTQ people are treated as lesser everywhere, but there’s a pretty material difference between the US or Europe (provides legal protections) and Saudi Arabia (provides death). Just because they are on the same spectrum doesn’t mean they’re comparable.

Was it actual war crimes, or the ones that were made up?

It shouldn’t matter.

You clearly don’t know Russia

It’s never good when a government punishes anyone who criticizes it.

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Completely dystopian.

B-but America…!

Yeah. What about Asssange for example?

Ah yes, the simple school teacher who told his students about US war crimes

You know that I did not mean it like that. But you certainly chose to act like that. Do you have any worthwhile answer or insight for this topic?

Of course I believe Assange didn’t do anything wrong, and so his persecution is a terrible thing. The problem is the persecution of the Russian state against its own citizens as at a scope/level far greater than in the United States. The same is true for China and other despotic regimes in the world. USA isn’t wonderful by any means, it’s simply better than those, which is not hard to accomplish because that’s setting the bar as low as possible.

The USA is the most despotic regime in the world since the Nazis. Even before then they were the ones who encouraged such fascism! You don’t know a thing about despotic regimes if you don’t put the USA as the worst one.

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I live in a former Soviet country now and it’s obviously worse than the USA. Your claim about the USA being “the most despotic regime in the world” is utterly braindead.

Catraism-Stalinism
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post-soviet? sounds like capitalism is your problem. I don’t give two shits about americans under america, thank you very much. Not when compared to the 7 billion other people who suffer from their country.

I’m sorry, but this is simply a ridiculous claim. The most despotic regime wouldn’t tolerate publications like Jacobin Magazine. The CPC in contrast is so unwilling to allow criticism that it has erected a massive firewall and censorship system. Dissidents are routinely silenced. And the CPC is far from the worst out there, it just works on the largest scale.

Ah yes, the Jacobin that loves the CIA. Nothing weird going on there, the government is absolutely not using Jacobin to prevent you from moving into the actual effective left (Marxism-Leninism) and instead keep you powerless in the democratic party.

https://www.historicly.net/p/beware-of-the-respectable-left

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Can you link one article from Jacobin that is such a scathing criticism that a despotic regime would not allow the publishing of?

Uh… most of every single edition? It’s literally devoted to ending capitalism. Just to name a single journalist out of over a hundred Chinese journalists arrested and an untold number intimidated, Zhang Zhan. She was critical of the handling of the COVID-19 pandemic in Wuhan, and for that was convicted of “picking quarrels and provoking trouble”, which is a blanket charge for “we don’t like you”. She is now serving a 4 year prison sentence, while Jacobin happily publishes weekly unhindered by the evil capitalists that are quite happy to allow their infrastructure to be used to plot their downfall.

张展当年可是被全网骂,你这不该好好反思一下张展说了什么引起全网愤怒?

I only speak English, so I’m going to have to rely on machine translation.

Zhang Zhan was scolded by the whole network back then. You shouldn’t reflect on what Zhang Zhan said caused the anger of the whole network.

I don’t know if this is just a poor translation, but nowhere in here do I hear a good reason for imprisoning and silencing someone. It just sounds like the Party is thin skinned.

张展在香港返送中运动时在中国大陆的城市中打出标语”中国共产党下台“为什么没有被判刑?因为没有人民群众知道这件事,没有人骂他。而后来张展对武汉抗议的不客观不真实报道被揭露,评论都在骂张展,这下是人民群众都在骂他了。你自己想想给张展判刑是共产党的意愿还是人民的意愿?

This is the translation I’m working off:

Why was Zhang Zhan not sentenced to a slogan in cities in mainland China when he was campaigning for the return of the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong? Because no people knew about it, no one scolds him. Later, Zhang Zhan’s inaccurate and untrue report on the Wuhan protests was exposed. The comments were all scolding Zhang Zhan, and now the people are scolding him. Do you think about whether Zhang Zhan’s sentence is the will of the Communist Party or the will of the people?

First, Zhang Zhan was targeted by the police for actions in support of various causes. Merely speaking or working in support of a cause wouldn’t get someone a prison sentence.

Second, it’s worth noting that referring to all the comments as scolding Zhang Zhan is fallacious. Opposition commentary is routinely scrubbed from the Internet. Under an environment like that, there’s no way to tell how many people were in support. It’s also impossible to have an informed citizenry because the only thought that can exist is enslaved to the Communist Party.

Third, I was just using Zhang Zhan as an example. There are many other examples of people being arbitrary detained or imprisoned for criticizing the CPC. This same type of criticism is highly protected at least in the US.

你回句话好不好?你不论是觉得你自己赢了还是输了都别不回话呀

I concluded that this wasn’t a productive conversation. I’m used to very strict press freedoms. Maybe not perfect, but leagues better than China. China just doesn’t have that. Journalists can and routinely are detained merely for what they said. It may not be as bad as the most despotic countries, but it’s not a country with a free press.

你所谓的严格的新闻自由只是可以随意造谣吗?CNN曾拍摄过一段采访新疆警察是如何迫害维吾尔族人的视频,视频中的这位新疆警察的臂章上的中文是错误的,CNN在造假时将“公安”两个字写成了“公支”,一眼假。这就是所谓的新闻自由?https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/05/im-getting-shot-attacks-on-journalists-surge-in-us-protests 这就是新闻自由!你真是秦始皇摸电线赢麻了捏

Well, there’s defamation for many claims, so people aren’t complete free to make false accusations. For example, Alex Jones of Info Wars is currently the subject of multiple lawsuits from the families of victims of mass shootings in which Jones made defamatory statements on air. But it’s going to be a much higher standard than the government declaring your speech as “spreading rumors”.

The journalists that got hurt were right in the thick of protests that sometimes got very violent. There’s plenty of blame to go around there, of course. These do not appear to have been targeted attacks on journalists. Also, from what I understand there were a lot of people who were taking part in the protests, but had the press jacket on.

Now compare that to, say, the recent treatment of the Hong Kong media. Since 2019, one independent outlet after another has closed its doors as the police have raided their offices. Within just a few years, it’s gone from media that was free to criticize the government for shortcomings to something more like the Chinese media, where publishing in contradiction of the CPC’s narratives risks arrest.

你说的那个记者发表诽谤性言论被制裁,CNN的那段“采访迫害维族人的警察”的视频是绝对造假的,毕竟这两个简单的汉字在中国有小学一年级的学历的人就不会搞错。而CNN不需要承担任何代价,证明你们所谓的新闻自由并不比中国好,甚至更恶心,可以随意地进行造谣

你倒是解释一下为什么关于弗洛伊德游行的记者会被这样对待?这一百四十八名记者诽谤了什么?CNN对新疆的诽谤为什么没有遭到处理?说白了,美国同样打击谣言,新闻自由仅对攻击敌国的新闻生效。我再问你,真正的记者在游行活动中会做出伤害他人的暴力行为吗?我觉得不会。警察又有什么权力攻击没有做出暴力行为的示威者?没有吧?那警察为什么要逮捕记者?所以你的辩护不成立。警察不过是要破坏所谓新闻自由罢了。香港暴动里包括苹果日报等都大肆宣传香港警察打伤打死示威者但基本没有任何证据或者是有失偏颇的报道。最广为流传的“示威者被香港警察打伤”图片被证明图片中的伤者是被另一个示威者用弹弓打伤的。你所谓的独立媒体不过是反中亲西方的擅长于报道假新闻和片面新闻的媒体罢了

Have you contemplated the possibility that you are being lied to?

CNN once released an interview of a policeman in xinjiang. this policeman said what they did on uyghurs. On the policeman’s cloth I saw two hanzi:公支 but police in Chinese is 公安, obviously CNN didnt know Chinese well. So have you ever thought that you may be the person who is being lied to?

why do you always think you know china better than chinese people?please stop expressing your funny idea, no matter how CPC wants to cover something, i am in China, I will know the truth and know it better than you OK?

Okay, at least answer me this: Do you think this story would happen in the US? Both the initial action of the police and the later censorship of social media?

i will never happen in america because Li Wenliang isnt living in america. but this has already happened in america, hasnt it?https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/05/im-getting-shot-attacks-on-journalists-surge-in-us-protests

Again, those were journalists that were in the middle of protests that had gotten violent. That’s just not comparable to this situation:

Four days later he was summoned to the Public Security Bureau where he was told to sign a letter. In the letter he was accused of “making false comments” that had “severely disturbed the social order”.

There was no chaos around that. It was a conscious decision to not just punish someone who had said something that was true, but to deny the truth. All under the power of the police.

someone reported that a “fake" information of new virus was spreading, and police didn’t know what exactly happened so they certainly thought Li Wenliang was lying. But what about the 148 journalists?The policemen knew these journalists were just taking photos and videos but they still arrested them

你每天看着例如CNN发布的印着错误的汉字的警察说自己如何镇压维族人的新闻,你已经被骗了

你倒是有没有想过你被骗?你怎么始终觉得你自己比中国人更懂中国

@m532@lemmygrad.ml
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真正遭中共”迫害“的是谁?七十年前的奴隶主阶级代言人达赖喇嘛,三十年前骗取大量钱财的法轮功创始人李洪志,最近还抓了个台独分子。抓这些人,我百分百支持捏

PX项目事件是完全和平的,还被中国媒体广泛报道。而某位”民主斗士“广泛传播的言论称其”流了许多血“并且有超过一千的转发。这已经不是批评了,而是造谣。然而这位”民主斗士“至今还没有遭到监禁。这位”民主斗士“本人就在中国新疆。你的”例子“到底都是从西方宣传中得知的,中国将维吾尔族人关进集中营也是来自西方宣传。有些信息是真实的,有些信息是部分真实的,有些信息是完全虚假的。你固然没有能力调查这些信息的真实性,但你却选择无条件相信。如果你认为此类批评受到高度保护,别忘了特朗普在这几天才遭到搜查。这就是高度保护吗?

你都不会中文,那你也没上过中文互联网。谁告诉你反对派言论总被从网上删除?知乎里全是骂中国吹美国的,你在知乎说中国好还要被人骂,被删了吗?没有。QQ空间全是”网络左派“与自由派。有一个拥有十万粉丝的哔哩哔哩LGBT博主,DD第二代,在微博上反对他人骂台独,辱骂毛泽东,称毛泽东、斯大林等人都是虚假的马克思主义者,还使用谐音说他人是支那人(支那人的意思就像ChingChong),在几个月的举报后他的微博才被封。没有。这就是你所谓的反对言论总被删除?这些言论已经不仅仅是反对了,而是对他人的侮辱。为什么骂中国吹美国的人和自由派没有表达对张展的支持?因为张展被注意到的时候美国与其他欧洲国家已经死了几十万人了。张展的文章标题”满地无主手机“证明张展认为中国有很多人因COVID而死,而为什么中国会死这么多人?张展认为这是因为中国的制度落后于欧美的民主制度。张展发表这些文章时COVID的绝大多数死亡案例都在中国。然而在张展被人们注意到时,它的观点早已被证明是完全错误的,因此中国的反对派固然不会支持张展。或者说中国网民都反对张展,你怎么还说得出是”任意监禁“?

整个中国互联网当年都在声讨张展和方方两位“大作家”,张展在香港暴乱时公开上街支持香港返送中运动,结果没人理他,路人看到还报警了。给张展判刑与其说是中共的意愿不如说是中国人民的意志。张展的文章《当最基本的生存权都无法保障时,政府和国家还有意义吗》《人命重要还是权力重要》《纷争:防疫防控已经成为大于民生的政绩工程,恐造成又一轮新灾难》《威权防疫后果在持续显现》放在现在结合”民主国家“的死亡人数,后遗症率,”大作家“张展对中国防疫政策的”批评“最终都落到”民主国家“头上了,也难怪会引起全互联网的愤怒

I’m sorry, but this is simply a ridiculous claim.

Sadly it is not. Read up on history of war crimes of the US. Read up on US interventions like overthrowing governments of other countries for power or resource gain. Read about the shit the FBI, CIA and NSA are doing since decaeds. Wikipedia can give you a good overview. You’ll easily find good articles on that.

It’s a fucking lot. Like… a serious fuck ton of “holy shit I didn’t know human beings can be THIS evil” material.

I’m aware of what the US government has been up to, more or less. But it was also doing good things at the same time. There have been plenty of regimes in the post-WW2 era that are just evil. Take the Myanmar junta. They have destroyed civilian rule, carried out a genocide against the Rohingya, and generally oppressed the people.

Much of the US’s large record has to do as much with it being a superpower. The people at the helm could do more good or more evil. Contrast that with a country like Iran where the people are brutally oppressed and they routinely fund regional terrorist groups. Iran does less terrible stuff overall, but that’s more because they have so much less power. Well, that and a lack of Henry Kissinger, because screw Henry Kissinger.

It’s not that the US government hasn’t committed terrible crimes, it’s just that you’re (perhaps unintentionally) giving yourself in to bias. You aren’t really considering the true amount of evil done by more despotic and wretched regimes like the ones in China and Russia.

你这叫秦始皇摸电线赢麻啦!全方位立体化防御系统是吧,这么厉害捏!俄国我没发言权,中国干啥啦?

Дафъаи баъд кӯшиш кунед мантиқитар ҷавоб диҳед. Он чӣ навиштед дар баҳси феълии мо кӯчактарин арзише надорад.

你说我说的没用只是因为你看不懂中文啦,机翻你看不懂嘛我当然当然理解,不懂汉语的人觉得自己比讲汉语的人更了解中国笑死

Catraism-Stalinism
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CIA, FBI

those are enough to back up my claim.

Gulags

So regular prisons then? Also FYI GULag means “main camp administration”, and not the camp itself

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Yippee, an argument from semantics. English speakers commonly use “gulag” to refer to the network of forced labor prison camps. You know that, I know that, and we’re writing English not Russian.

The difference is that Soviet Union actually abolished gulags, meanwhile US still has its slavery based penal system today. US also holds more people in these prison labor camps than USSR ever had in gulags.

Catraism-Stalinism
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Bruh why would I hate the Gulag?

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So you’re in favor of putting political opponents in prisons that killed over a million people? Come on, even the Soviet Union realized that shit was messed up and abolished it post-Stalin.

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You mean Krushchev revisionism? And 1 million people? lmao.

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I don’t knew what to tell you if you’re going to stick your head in the sand over the mass murder that Stalin especially committed towards his own people. The US can take plenty of dissent among its citizens. Stalin instead slaughtered his political enemies, real or imagined.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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I highly recommend reading chapter 10 in Democracy for the Few to see the amount of political repression that actually happens in US. Especially against the people who are deemed to be an actual threat to the system. US regime slaughtered many political opponents over the years, MLK and Fred Hampton being two prominent ones. It’s also worth reading up on McCarthyism and all the purges that happened then. I find that once you really start looking at how US regime operates it becomes clear that the freedoms are paper thin in practice.

I do indeed know about McCarthyism. I believe my high school US history class covered it briefly, then my English class covered it more in depth when covering The Crucible. In the US, many of the worst excesses of the FBI can be traced to J Edgar Hoover. That includes his harassment of King and murder of Hampton, but not the murder of King. My understanding is that Hoover’s reign is such a dark spot because he had dirt on a lot of Congress. Once he was gone, the FBI got reigned in a lot. We know of programs like COINTELPRO because of the US Senate’s Church Committee report. I’m skeptical that a thin-skinned authoritarian regime would do that sort of investigation.

All that said, there are still way more freedoms to speak your mind. I can go protest a government decision in the streets and generally things stay pretty calm. Even protests that go sour don’t usually go that sour in the modern day. And there are lots of ways to influence local decisions that the left especially underestimates.

你怕是没看过B站上的网左,知乎上的神蛆和微博上的一群人,神蛆可以喊“支那人”还不被禁言,网左可以凭空捏造出各种数据证明中国要完而不被禁言。这已经是过于自由了,这些根本算不上批评,没有建设性的意见。你要对政府工作有什么意见,每个县级政府都有网站,去说就好了捏 我用中文反正你机翻了也看不懂捏

Imagine saying that with a straight face when US holds 20% of world’s population in prison and uses it as literal slave labor. That’s like the definition of a despotic regime.

isn’t it 40%?

Last I looked it was around 20%.

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Racist

笑死,我也在中国捏,我咋没觉得自己给关监狱当奴隶,中国如果有百分百那我也在其中吧?

Беҳтарин зиндон он аст, ки зиндонӣ намедонад, ки дар зиндон аст. Албатта маълум аст км дурӯғгӯ ҳастӣ, вале мушкиле нест. Ба ҷуз як манкурт чизе нестӣ.

пошел на хуй дебил

Nice, using the language of the colonizer

Catraism-Stalinism
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my god are you from the baltics?

I love how he unironically says it all the while talking in english here.

赢!秦始皇摸电线,属实是赢麻了!讲不过开始人身攻击了捏~急了急了笑死

什么叫境外势力捏~阿Q的精神胜利法捏哈哈哈哈哈

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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That was really unnecessary.

Perhaps, it gets pretty old listening to people make stories up about China who don’t actually know anyone from China, never been to China, and can’t speak the language. Maybe instead of badmouthing countries where people’s lives are constantly improving people should focus on fixing their own.

I get it, I’m just thinking about a conversation we had a few days ago.

I do try my best. :)

Probably as many times as you have

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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I’m not the one claiming to know more about China than people living there. It’s absolutely hilarious that you’re literally arguing with somebody who actually lives in China in this very thread. The fact that you managed to convince yourself you know more about a country you’ve never visited than people living there truly highlights your intellectual capacity.

As if China is any better

In every single way.

Keep dreaming

You’re gonna be doing so much coping going forward.

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We have to disagree on the “better” part. What the US did in the last 100 years, and continues to do, is nothing but the most extreme shit you can imagine. Over and over again, lies were used to start wars, and it’s not even a conspiracy theory, it’s in the fucking open. People just don’t care, because it’s so prevalent that people feel like they can’t do anything.

Every evil has to be stopped. No matter if it is Russian or American.

你这么赢下去我有点害怕,赢赢赢到头来是输输输捏

Ninmi
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because two things can’t be bad simultaneously 🤨

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