The judge said the evidence did not establish Tickle was excluded from Giggle directly “by reason of her gender identity although it remains possible that this was the real but unproven reason”.
Rather, the indirect discrimination case succeeded because Tickle was excluded from the use of the social media app “because she did not look sufficiently female”.
And yet…
Grover [app’s maker] told the court that she would not address Tickle as “Ms” and that, even if a transgender woman presented as female, had gender affirmation surgery, lived as a female and held female identity documents, Grover would still see her as a “biological male”.
Sounds like literal discrimination by her gender identity to me. If Grover said this in court, displayed this in court, how could there be any doubt?
Maybe I’m confused, but aren’t all trans women still biologically male, as they still have XY chromosomes? They might be dressing, experiencing life, and living as a female, but their chromosomes are still XY?
Genuinely curious, as I have very limited exposure to trans issues in my personal life and work life.
Edit: thank you for all the responses and taking the question in good faith as I genuinely was curious
I’m going to take this in good faith and assume you truly are open to being educated here, but I will caution you that this is right on the line of something I would remove (transphobes often use questioning similar to this to troll and harass the trans community).
Grover’s insistence on referring to Tickle as a man reflects an (intentionally) limited and outdated understanding of gender, as well as a clearly spiteful attempt to hurt and disrespect Tickle.
Lets first address the biological aspect. Firstly, “biological sex” (itself a fairly outdated term) is more complicated than simple chromosomes. Yes, most people with XY chromosomes are assigned-male-at-birth and have the corollary primary and secondary sex characteristics to match, but that doesn’t make it universal. For instance, individuals with Swyer Syndrome are born with XY chromosomes but develop female characteristics, including uteri, and can even give birth with IVF.
Furthermore, the medical community has long generally drawn a distinction between sex (your biological characteristics) and gender (a complex psychological and social identity). This awareness has been present in Western medical thought since the 1950s, following research by J Money and others. Gender identity represents more than biological characteristics and is about how people perceive themselves and live their lives. Grover’s ideas also loosely play into the notion of biological essentialism, an outdated idea that a self proclaimed feminist such as herself should be rejecting (Simone de Beauvoir was writing about this in 1949!).
It can be pretty difficult for a cis (not trans) person to understand what it feels like to have a misaligned sex and gender, since yours are largely indistinguishable, so let me give you my personal experience (with the disclaimer that it is not universal, everyone is different). For me, it was a largely unplaced discomfort with my body and hatred of my “masculine” features. I was maxing out about every depression metric, even as a toddler. When I eventually connected the dots and began medically transitioning (taking testosterone blockers and estrogen) this discomfort eased significantly. My body and (occasionally) how society understood me finally matched how I understood myself. It felt like I had been suffocated my entire life and was finally able to breath.
From a practical standpoint, you are almost always using pronouns and titles based on your perception of a person’s gender identity and presentation - it is not reasonable to perform a DNA test on everyone you meet. On a deeper level though, when interacting with others, using pronouns and titles that align with their gender identity is not just a matter of politeness but a recognition of their humanity and autonomy. Misgendering someone invalidates a person’s identity and can contribute to their distress and alienation. To do this intentionally is fundamentally disrespectful, rejects decades of medical progress, and ignores the personal experiences of the target.
I think you handled this wonderfully, I also felt that this could be genuine as well, and was not personally offended after reading their comment. I feel very represented by your cautious openness, and am glad that you’re among those running this joint. Thanks!
Thank you for the information, and taking my question in good faith, as I genuinely was very curious. Last time I learnt about anything chromosomal and biological sex related was probably almost 20 years ago in science lessons in a Catholic school… so you can guess how narrow the taught spectrum was there
Chromosoms are not what makes someone male or female, basically Chromosoms are used as an justification to discriminate against trans people.
If you want to learn more you can watch this video-essay about this topic
So sex in biology isn’t usually identified via studying the chromosomes of an organism, since not even every species uses an XY Sex Determination system. It is generally determined via the primary and secondary sex characteristics exhibited by the organism. If the organism has female sex characteristics, they are “biologically female”. Its get even murkier when discussing things like Klinefelter Syndrome, Swyer Syndrom, and de la Chapelle Syndrome.
There are people out there with XX Chromosomes that were born looking like men, have penises like men, sound like men, etc. And there are people out there with XY Chromosomes that were born looking like women. These people might not even be trans; it is just that genetics, biology, chromosomes and the like aren’t so clear cut and easily put into two categories like “biologically male” and “biologically female”.
The terms “biologically male” and “biologically female” tend to be phrases that exist within the realms of transphobes and the like to deny people’s gender identities, and not anything used by scientists.
People use that to treat people as the wrong gender, which is messed up. I’m a trans woman, and while I have male primary sex characteristics, I don’t have the mind of a man like many transphobes implicitly assume.
They say one argument but mean something else, probably because they’ve never actually unpacked their thoughts and don’t some thinking. Sure, I guess I’m “biologically male”, but they said it’s a woman-only app, so that’s gender. They implicitly argue that the “biological male” thing has any bearing on being a woman, that’s the only way to make their conclusion follow from their reasoning.
That’s exactly how it works. At least the Grover guy is being honest, but in the majority of cases people will act all holy but their actions still end up fucking you over.
And yet…
Sounds like literal discrimination by her gender identity to me. If Grover said this in court, displayed this in court, how could there be any doubt?
Maybe I’m confused, but aren’t all trans women still biologically male, as they still have XY chromosomes? They might be dressing, experiencing life, and living as a female, but their chromosomes are still XY?
Genuinely curious, as I have very limited exposure to trans issues in my personal life and work life.
Edit: thank you for all the responses and taking the question in good faith as I genuinely was curious
I’m going to take this in good faith and assume you truly are open to being educated here, but I will caution you that this is right on the line of something I would remove (transphobes often use questioning similar to this to troll and harass the trans community).
Grover’s insistence on referring to Tickle as a man reflects an (intentionally) limited and outdated understanding of gender, as well as a clearly spiteful attempt to hurt and disrespect Tickle.
Lets first address the biological aspect. Firstly, “biological sex” (itself a fairly outdated term) is more complicated than simple chromosomes. Yes, most people with XY chromosomes are assigned-male-at-birth and have the corollary primary and secondary sex characteristics to match, but that doesn’t make it universal. For instance, individuals with Swyer Syndrome are born with XY chromosomes but develop female characteristics, including uteri, and can even give birth with IVF.
Furthermore, the medical community has long generally drawn a distinction between sex (your biological characteristics) and gender (a complex psychological and social identity). This awareness has been present in Western medical thought since the 1950s, following research by J Money and others. Gender identity represents more than biological characteristics and is about how people perceive themselves and live their lives. Grover’s ideas also loosely play into the notion of biological essentialism, an outdated idea that a self proclaimed feminist such as herself should be rejecting (Simone de Beauvoir was writing about this in 1949!).
It can be pretty difficult for a cis (not trans) person to understand what it feels like to have a misaligned sex and gender, since yours are largely indistinguishable, so let me give you my personal experience (with the disclaimer that it is not universal, everyone is different). For me, it was a largely unplaced discomfort with my body and hatred of my “masculine” features. I was maxing out about every depression metric, even as a toddler. When I eventually connected the dots and began medically transitioning (taking testosterone blockers and estrogen) this discomfort eased significantly. My body and (occasionally) how society understood me finally matched how I understood myself. It felt like I had been suffocated my entire life and was finally able to breath.
From a practical standpoint, you are almost always using pronouns and titles based on your perception of a person’s gender identity and presentation - it is not reasonable to perform a DNA test on everyone you meet. On a deeper level though, when interacting with others, using pronouns and titles that align with their gender identity is not just a matter of politeness but a recognition of their humanity and autonomy. Misgendering someone invalidates a person’s identity and can contribute to their distress and alienation. To do this intentionally is fundamentally disrespectful, rejects decades of medical progress, and ignores the personal experiences of the target.
I think you handled this wonderfully, I also felt that this could be genuine as well, and was not personally offended after reading their comment. I feel very represented by your cautious openness, and am glad that you’re among those running this joint. Thanks!
Thank you, I try my best 😅
Thank you for the information, and taking my question in good faith, as I genuinely was very curious. Last time I learnt about anything chromosomal and biological sex related was probably almost 20 years ago in science lessons in a Catholic school… so you can guess how narrow the taught spectrum was there
Chromosoms are not what makes someone male or female, basically Chromosoms are used as an justification to discriminate against trans people. If you want to learn more you can watch this video-essay about this topic
Thanks for the video, very informative
So sex in biology isn’t usually identified via studying the chromosomes of an organism, since not even every species uses an XY Sex Determination system. It is generally determined via the primary and secondary sex characteristics exhibited by the organism. If the organism has female sex characteristics, they are “biologically female”. Its get even murkier when discussing things like Klinefelter Syndrome, Swyer Syndrom, and de la Chapelle Syndrome.
There are people out there with XX Chromosomes that were born looking like men, have penises like men, sound like men, etc. And there are people out there with XY Chromosomes that were born looking like women. These people might not even be trans; it is just that genetics, biology, chromosomes and the like aren’t so clear cut and easily put into two categories like “biologically male” and “biologically female”.
The terms “biologically male” and “biologically female” tend to be phrases that exist within the realms of transphobes and the like to deny people’s gender identities, and not anything used by scientists.
Thank you for the information
Using the terms male for XY and Female for XX is an over simplification. There is plenty of data in both and they both do many different things.
We are all biologically human, we have chromosomes, but they express themselves in many different ways.
People use that to treat people as the wrong gender, which is messed up. I’m a trans woman, and while I have male primary sex characteristics, I don’t have the mind of a man like many transphobes implicitly assume.
They say one argument but mean something else, probably because they’ve never actually unpacked their thoughts and don’t some thinking. Sure, I guess I’m “biologically male”, but they said it’s a woman-only app, so that’s gender. They implicitly argue that the “biological male” thing has any bearing on being a woman, that’s the only way to make their conclusion follow from their reasoning.
That’s exactly how it works. At least the Grover guy is being honest, but in the majority of cases people will act all holy but their actions still end up fucking you over.
Sauce: Daily experience