When men see other men who are successful with women, that’s exactly what it looks like. Confidence is attractive to people. When the attraction is mutual, expecting that you’re entitled to affection is exactly the appropriate response.
The conflict happens when one person misses the signs that the attraction is not mutual and keeps pursuing which comes across as creepy etc. and yes women
It’s not so black and white. If it were life would probably be pretty boring.
It’s probably rude to say it but when guys ask girls out, the primary reason is most likely they want to have sex. You can have other activities and traits you enjoy sharing together as well, and there is absolutely more to life than having sex.
Men and women have similar and different complex wants and needs. Life is hard yes. But if we’re going to be offended about male sexuality then I guess we’re going to have to keep pretending that men don’t think about sex as much as they do.
Generic advice often sounds to some guys like… ok I should try to be friends with her and pretend I don’t want to have sex. The guy wants sex and will follow any advice and process to reach that goal. To tell the guy to not want sex is useless advice, because he wants it.
I see your point about having values and not basing your validation and ego around what other people think of you, it’s very important for healthy self esteem. But there’s no simple answer and we all have to navigate our complex personal relationships on the fly as we go, and some lessons are difficult to learn. I don’t have the answers but it’s interesting discussion.
I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Nobody is ever entitled to affection whether somebody is attracted to them or not. Even in a committed relationship. You can expect it, but you’re never entitled to it.
You can put your head in the sand if you like, I prefer living in reality. Where semantics are much less difficult to understand than actual human interactions and relationships.
You’re trying to draw a red line in on invisible sand and saying don’t cross this line. No one but you knows where that line is but you will know it when they cross the line, and if they do they are a bad person. This doesn’t help us become better people but I guess it makes you feel superior because you’re in the right?
Hm. You’re projecting a lot into this conversation. There is no semantics with consent. Nobody is entitled to anybody’s affection and much less their body (I know you didn’t say this part but this whole discussion is about sex so I imagine it’s implied). No superiority here. That’s all in your head. I’m just trying to explain how it is and why some people might be feeling rejected.
We can and should validate everybody’s feelings but not at the expense of others’ safety and autonomy, and we can validate feelings while at the same time not enabling and perpetuating bad behavior that got the person feeling rejected in the first place.
All due respect, just telling it like it is. No ego here.
Dalto is right, we are talking past one another. You’re not looking at the context of what I was saying and you are just saying consent is consent. That’s all well and good but navigating that is not black and white. Human relationships are more complex than just saying consent is consent and no one is entitled. It’s just a talking point but in reality relationships are complex and nuanced. Autonomy and consent is really important and necessary in relationships especially sexual ones.
I mean, I dunno, I do think it’s sort of stupid idea to, as I see it, give men the advice to just sort of, pretend they like someone, when realistically they just want to have sex. Basically just telling them to, say, be courteous, or whatever, or to “be themselves”, when “themselves” is the guy that’s courteous, has sex, and then ghosts a chick, or does something worse. I think the advice kind of originates from the idea that sexual relationships will more naturally evolve into normal relationships over time, and if they just have sex, then their relationships will naturally evolve from there. It’s a perspective where sex is the end goal, rather than like, third base, and then when they are unable to achieve sex, they turn into incels, and then when they achieve it and it doesn’t work out how they want, they turn into cynical red pill grifters. Like, it’s a very conventional reasoning for chastity before marriage, right, that you have sex, and that’s sort of, the foundation of the relationship. I think that’s really kind of stupid and misunderstands what the role of marriage is, but nonetheless, that’s the origin of that advice, I think.
I think probably the difference would be that, upper in the comment chain, you respond to a comment about “men should be able to be friends with women without wanting to have sex with them”, you respond to that with, “nah it’s just gonna happen anyways”. Like, the men wanting to have sex. I dunno, I think human behavior, if anything, is successful in it’s flexibility, and I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation to think that both sexes should be able to socialize outside of their sex without sex being the primary driving motivation. Especially for men. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation, and I think it’s actually a pretty healthy one.
This isn’t to say that men shouldn’t necessarily experience sexual attraction, right, because that’s sort of, harder for most men to exercise some level of self-control over. But I don’t think it’s a step too far to say that they should try not to show this sexual attraction in their behavior, or use it as a primary motivator in their behavior. I think it’s probably more that one leads to the other, and men who exercise this level of self-control over their sexual attraction will probably be more consistently able to control their sexual attraction over time.
I mean, sometimes you’ll get a boner in class or whatever, right, which I would consider more just a physiological oddity than originating from sexual attraction, but even that’s not common if you’re not a teenage boy. Usually, real sexual attraction comes from some level of like, human behaviors which can be changed. A stray or conscious glance at someone, a loop of thoughts, etc. This is sort of, related to normal human self-control, right. It’s hard to not think of a pink elephant, if I tell you to think of one, right? But at the same time, it can be done, and you can not think about it. You can just, not really process it consciously, or cut off that thought at the root and think about something else. That’s maybe getting more into the weeds a bit, though, and certainly, it’s variable, depending on the person.
I also think there’s probably a multitude of contexts in which two people can be experiencing sexual attraction and it’s not right for them to both enter a relationship, have sex, or, have an expectation of affection. I would say, certainly, I understand the other person’s perspective in basically never expecting that.
I think you and this other bloke are talking past each other a bit, it seems like they’re talking more about just, men and women being able to have more platonic relationships, which, yeah, that seems healthy and probably like it should happen more, and you’re talking more about like, the nuance of human behavior in maybe a less prescriptive way.
Interesting…. I think you’re right in that we are probably talking past one another.
We can and hopefully we all do engage in platonic relationships where sex is not an expectation… I hope so dear lord.
It does upset me though in these conversations where some one just says… hey, don’t be a dick, it’s easy…. As if that is useful or helpful advice… and then also the canned and simplified response of sex is never an entitlement or an expectation. It’s not always that black and white. Yes we all have autonomy, and yes all sexual relationships should be consensual.
Human sexuality is a bizzarre thing and a lot of the things that we tell guys to do is the exact opposite of what should be done depending on the exact circumstances. It’s difficult to navigate, because women are not an algorithm where the correct input can be given to achieve the expected results, any more than men are. We are all complex. So one guy can do and say things depending on circumstances that would and do come across as creepy if another guy sees it and tries the same thing.
And in this comic I think it does speak to a lot of women’s personal experience.
Understanding one sides point of view doesn’t have to belittle the other persons experience on the other side either.
I’m glad we didn’t start attacking each other, it’s really interesting to me like I said. Thanks for responding.
When men see other men who are successful with women, that’s exactly what it looks like. Confidence is attractive to people. When the attraction is mutual, expecting that you’re entitled to affection is exactly the appropriate response.
The conflict happens when one person misses the signs that the attraction is not mutual and keeps pursuing which comes across as creepy etc. and yes women
It’s not so black and white. If it were life would probably be pretty boring.
It’s probably rude to say it but when guys ask girls out, the primary reason is most likely they want to have sex. You can have other activities and traits you enjoy sharing together as well, and there is absolutely more to life than having sex.
Men and women have similar and different complex wants and needs. Life is hard yes. But if we’re going to be offended about male sexuality then I guess we’re going to have to keep pretending that men don’t think about sex as much as they do.
Generic advice often sounds to some guys like… ok I should try to be friends with her and pretend I don’t want to have sex. The guy wants sex and will follow any advice and process to reach that goal. To tell the guy to not want sex is useless advice, because he wants it.
I see your point about having values and not basing your validation and ego around what other people think of you, it’s very important for healthy self esteem. But there’s no simple answer and we all have to navigate our complex personal relationships on the fly as we go, and some lessons are difficult to learn. I don’t have the answers but it’s interesting discussion.
I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Nobody is ever entitled to affection whether somebody is attracted to them or not. Even in a committed relationship. You can expect it, but you’re never entitled to it.
You can put your head in the sand if you like, I prefer living in reality. Where semantics are much less difficult to understand than actual human interactions and relationships.
You’re trying to draw a red line in on invisible sand and saying don’t cross this line. No one but you knows where that line is but you will know it when they cross the line, and if they do they are a bad person. This doesn’t help us become better people but I guess it makes you feel superior because you’re in the right?
Hm. You’re projecting a lot into this conversation. There is no semantics with consent. Nobody is entitled to anybody’s affection and much less their body (I know you didn’t say this part but this whole discussion is about sex so I imagine it’s implied). No superiority here. That’s all in your head. I’m just trying to explain how it is and why some people might be feeling rejected.
We can and should validate everybody’s feelings but not at the expense of others’ safety and autonomy, and we can validate feelings while at the same time not enabling and perpetuating bad behavior that got the person feeling rejected in the first place.
All due respect, just telling it like it is. No ego here.
Dalto is right, we are talking past one another. You’re not looking at the context of what I was saying and you are just saying consent is consent. That’s all well and good but navigating that is not black and white. Human relationships are more complex than just saying consent is consent and no one is entitled. It’s just a talking point but in reality relationships are complex and nuanced. Autonomy and consent is really important and necessary in relationships especially sexual ones.
All good. We’re not gonna solve sexism here. Best wishes to you and all current and future relationships, romantic or otherwise.
No! We will solve it here and Now!!! 😂. Communication is so important in any relationship but it is not always easy. Same to you
I mean, I dunno, I do think it’s sort of stupid idea to, as I see it, give men the advice to just sort of, pretend they like someone, when realistically they just want to have sex. Basically just telling them to, say, be courteous, or whatever, or to “be themselves”, when “themselves” is the guy that’s courteous, has sex, and then ghosts a chick, or does something worse. I think the advice kind of originates from the idea that sexual relationships will more naturally evolve into normal relationships over time, and if they just have sex, then their relationships will naturally evolve from there. It’s a perspective where sex is the end goal, rather than like, third base, and then when they are unable to achieve sex, they turn into incels, and then when they achieve it and it doesn’t work out how they want, they turn into cynical red pill grifters. Like, it’s a very conventional reasoning for chastity before marriage, right, that you have sex, and that’s sort of, the foundation of the relationship. I think that’s really kind of stupid and misunderstands what the role of marriage is, but nonetheless, that’s the origin of that advice, I think.
I think probably the difference would be that, upper in the comment chain, you respond to a comment about “men should be able to be friends with women without wanting to have sex with them”, you respond to that with, “nah it’s just gonna happen anyways”. Like, the men wanting to have sex. I dunno, I think human behavior, if anything, is successful in it’s flexibility, and I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation to think that both sexes should be able to socialize outside of their sex without sex being the primary driving motivation. Especially for men. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation, and I think it’s actually a pretty healthy one.
This isn’t to say that men shouldn’t necessarily experience sexual attraction, right, because that’s sort of, harder for most men to exercise some level of self-control over. But I don’t think it’s a step too far to say that they should try not to show this sexual attraction in their behavior, or use it as a primary motivator in their behavior. I think it’s probably more that one leads to the other, and men who exercise this level of self-control over their sexual attraction will probably be more consistently able to control their sexual attraction over time.
I mean, sometimes you’ll get a boner in class or whatever, right, which I would consider more just a physiological oddity than originating from sexual attraction, but even that’s not common if you’re not a teenage boy. Usually, real sexual attraction comes from some level of like, human behaviors which can be changed. A stray or conscious glance at someone, a loop of thoughts, etc. This is sort of, related to normal human self-control, right. It’s hard to not think of a pink elephant, if I tell you to think of one, right? But at the same time, it can be done, and you can not think about it. You can just, not really process it consciously, or cut off that thought at the root and think about something else. That’s maybe getting more into the weeds a bit, though, and certainly, it’s variable, depending on the person.
I also think there’s probably a multitude of contexts in which two people can be experiencing sexual attraction and it’s not right for them to both enter a relationship, have sex, or, have an expectation of affection. I would say, certainly, I understand the other person’s perspective in basically never expecting that.
I think you and this other bloke are talking past each other a bit, it seems like they’re talking more about just, men and women being able to have more platonic relationships, which, yeah, that seems healthy and probably like it should happen more, and you’re talking more about like, the nuance of human behavior in maybe a less prescriptive way.
Interesting…. I think you’re right in that we are probably talking past one another.
We can and hopefully we all do engage in platonic relationships where sex is not an expectation… I hope so dear lord.
It does upset me though in these conversations where some one just says… hey, don’t be a dick, it’s easy…. As if that is useful or helpful advice… and then also the canned and simplified response of sex is never an entitlement or an expectation. It’s not always that black and white. Yes we all have autonomy, and yes all sexual relationships should be consensual.
Human sexuality is a bizzarre thing and a lot of the things that we tell guys to do is the exact opposite of what should be done depending on the exact circumstances. It’s difficult to navigate, because women are not an algorithm where the correct input can be given to achieve the expected results, any more than men are. We are all complex. So one guy can do and say things depending on circumstances that would and do come across as creepy if another guy sees it and tries the same thing.
And in this comic I think it does speak to a lot of women’s personal experience.
Understanding one sides point of view doesn’t have to belittle the other persons experience on the other side either.
I’m glad we didn’t start attacking each other, it’s really interesting to me like I said. Thanks for responding.