University of Southern California, Harvard University, University of Texas at Austin and Columbia University all had student riots on Wednesday, as anti-Israel hostility on college campuses grows.
We have a group of people, we cannot attribute who is a belligerent or not, we deny food and water to the entire group, we do not let any of the group Members leave, we bombed the group, this is textbook collective punishment. I’m not sure where the line is in your mind between a war and collective punishment.
In my mind, if people are not allowed to opt out of the combat, it is collective punishment. In most wars, opting out simply means refugees walk away from the combat area. It’s still terrible, but at least they’re not directly involved in the combat.
In my mind, if people are not allowed to opt out of the combat, it is collective punishment.
That is your opinion, but that isn’t how it is defined in law.
opting out simply means refugees walk away from the combat area.
If they hadn’t attacked all their neighbors, they would have a place to go.
Hamas bears the bulk of the blame here. I do blame Israel for not providing food, water and medical care. That is their obligation, and the world would provide them resources to do it.
Yes. The fire bombings on world war II were absolutely collective punishment.
Collective punishment is a punishment or sanction imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group, which could be an ethnic or political group, or just the family, friends and neighbors of the perpetrator.
From the wiki you just linked. Can we agree that there are people who live in Gaza, who do not support Hamas, and who are not actively involved in the fighting? You’ve just said they have to convince Hamas to stop fighting before things can be " over "?
You’re making uninvolved people, responsible for the actions of others. That fits the definition from Wikipedia that you just link to.
All right let’s go through a thought experiment: You’re a 16-year-old girl, you just had a baby. The father is dead. You want to leave the fighting zone. You’re not allowed to leave. How do you affect collective action, and change the government? The government which last had an election before you were born
The fact that you and your baby cannot overthrow Hamas, is that enough reason for you to die?
I think that’s a catch-22. If you organize a protest and you get into a group. You’re very likely to be bombed.
We are saying a member of this collective, is responsible for the behavior of other members of that collective. And until they fix the collective behavior, they cannot leave the kill box. That’s unethical, that’s immoral, that’s collective punishment
@wintermute_oregon Okay to be fair, I in general support #Israel but the siege on #Gaza at the very least constitutes as collective punishment to some degree, intentional or unintentional as it might have been.
I’m not sure where my logics breaking.
We have a group of people, we cannot attribute who is a belligerent or not, we deny food and water to the entire group, we do not let any of the group Members leave, we bombed the group, this is textbook collective punishment. I’m not sure where the line is in your mind between a war and collective punishment.
In my mind, if people are not allowed to opt out of the combat, it is collective punishment. In most wars, opting out simply means refugees walk away from the combat area. It’s still terrible, but at least they’re not directly involved in the combat.
That is your opinion, but that isn’t how it is defined in law.
If they hadn’t attacked all their neighbors, they would have a place to go.
Hamas bears the bulk of the blame here. I do blame Israel for not providing food, water and medical care. That is their obligation, and the world would provide them resources to do it.
You’re conflating they the belligerents and they the civilians. You’re mixing these two groups.
Which law are you referring to? Quite frankly even international law typically never gets applied inside of a country’s borders.
Telling people they have to die, because of where they are born, is a terrible thing. I will stand by that regardless of how you define the labels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
Nobody is telling them they have to die. If they removed Hamas or Hamas stopped fighting, this would be over tomorrow.
Using your logic, the bombings in WW2 were collective punishment since civilians were hit as well.
Yes. The fire bombings on world war II were absolutely collective punishment.
From the wiki you just linked. Can we agree that there are people who live in Gaza, who do not support Hamas, and who are not actively involved in the fighting? You’ve just said they have to convince Hamas to stop fighting before things can be " over "?
You’re making uninvolved people, responsible for the actions of others. That fits the definition from Wikipedia that you just link to.
No, they were attacking military tagets. They are not collective punishment.
They are not uninvolved. That is their government that started the fight.
I have very little empathy for the Palestinians. When they brought the hostages back, nobody stood up for them. Nobody tried to save any of them.
All right let’s go through a thought experiment: You’re a 16-year-old girl, you just had a baby. The father is dead. You want to leave the fighting zone. You’re not allowed to leave. How do you affect collective action, and change the government? The government which last had an election before you were born
The fact that you and your baby cannot overthrow Hamas, is that enough reason for you to die?
You protest with likeminded people.
I think that’s a catch-22. If you organize a protest and you get into a group. You’re very likely to be bombed.
We are saying a member of this collective, is responsible for the behavior of other members of that collective. And until they fix the collective behavior, they cannot leave the kill box. That’s unethical, that’s immoral, that’s collective punishment
@wintermute_oregon Okay to be fair, I in general support #Israel but the siege on #Gaza at the very least constitutes as collective punishment to some degree, intentional or unintentional as it might have been.
I agree the water, food and medical care are potentially collective punishment and at least against the rules of war.
The assault is not.
I’m not pleased Israel hasn’t done more to provide food, water and medical care.