If the democrats hold “civility” and “precedent” more highly than outlawing a candidate who, by their own admission, would plunge the country into fascism, then democrats are complicit.
Dog, take a look at what has happened this week alone (under a dem president): arguing in favor of unprecedented levels surveillance to any president, sending billions of dollars to a genocidal regime, the revelation that like 40% of democrats are in favor of mass deportations…
Fascism is already here. Just because it is being formally codified in Project 2025 doesn’t mean it has yet to arrive. Democrats, and liberalism in general, are unable to stomp fascism.
While I agree, it’s still important to vote Democrat just to keep things from getting worse even faster while we drum up support for a better solution.
Na fuck that. Voting Democrat is voting against progression. Progression will be achieved by igniting the masses. You fuel the fire and the new growth is what will grow to the old forest for your grandkids kids who will never know or thank you will live in. Vote Trump and burn the fucker to the ground.
It’s not enough to just burn it to the ground - the right people need to be behind the fire, or the only people to survive will be the wealthy with all their money and power.
If we work on spurring the people to rise up, buying time until enough people get on board, we can make real positive change; if we allow capitalism to destroy the country, the working class will die and the upper class will just move somewhere else.
The only logical conclusion to that line of thinking is, 30 years from now, voting for the candidate who supports 5 genocides as opposed to the candidate who supports 10 genocides. It is a liberal and fascistic strategy. Any vote within the American electoral system, which is kabuki theater, does nothing other than to refine capitalism and the regime.
I love how unhinged your argument is, essentially boiling down to “Voting is a waste”. Get out of here with that noise. You “both sides are the same” fools are just foreign disinformation agents, or useful idiots.
Bud, what? We need a revolution, yes, but it takes time to build it up - we’re not going to overthrow the government tomorrow. So, what do we do while we’re building up that support? Keep the country stitched up with the knock-off duct tape that is the democrats. Yes, the entire thing is coming apart at the seams, and pieces are falling off, but it’s better than letting people actively break it further. There will be no revolution if there’s nobody left to rise up.
Not only this, but our populace keeps shifting socially leftward. Hence why we have legalized gay marriage and why trans rights are even able to be discussed openly. The dems have been forced to shift their stances from the 90s on these issues bc of their core demographic shifting to the left.
Take note that lgbt rights, privacy, universal healthcare, and sensible climate change policies are no longer fringe, they are at the forefront of what the youth wants. Dont believe the lie that things will only get worse from here if we compromise on status quo joe.
The country is changing whether we like it or not. Either the leftward trend of the majority continues and those who wish to be elected fall in line, or we vote for the biggest boot youll ever see in ur lifetime.
Social acceptance of queer people is falling. Maybe if we’re talking about the prospects of revolution, we shouldn’t wait until social acceptance of queer people is so low that no one wants to work with us to make necessary change. I’m not saying revolution has to happen before this upcoming election since numbers aren’t changing that much (even though falling acceptance is always scary), but “society will generally move leftward” isn’t something that should be trusted or expected.
From a study of 22,000 adults published march of 2024:
Support for non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ Americans has dropped four points in the past year, from 80% in 2022 to 76% in 2023.
Even young Americans, aged 18-29, show a gradual decrease in support for LGBTQ nondiscrimination laws over the last three years, declining from a peak of 83% in 2020 to 75% in 2023.
Support for same-sex marriage has declined among Americans in the last year, dropping from 69% to 67%.
Call it speculation, but those are minor dips on the whole- any upward trend will come with temporary dips. The strides weve made in queer acceptance since, say, the mid 2000s, are staggering. The dips we notice come as the queer acceptance and gender equality movements have expanded to include fighting for trans folk, as well. We werent capable of even discussing trans rights up until recently, now it is a hot button issue.
Meanwhile, the average conservative is not the donald trump monster a lot of us are continuously made to believe in by the media we consume. The conservatives i work with on the daily are very quick to point out that they are accepting of gay ppl under far less conditions than they were even 10 years ago. As in, im not talking about, “not that theres anything wrong with that,” but outright, “such and such coworker whom i hold in high esteem is/was gay,” and then pretending that they were never part of the antigay crowd in the before times in the first place. The overall cultural shift in this country over the past 20 years has been astounding to see. I will grant that those same individuals might still have reservations towards gay adoption, but they do not feel like that is a safe thing to openly talk about.
I hope you’re right, but I honestly see our current political options as being the government’s response to our own successful pulls toward the left. “You want to force our Dems to support ever more left-leaning ideals? Well, we’ll just push our Conservatives ever further to the right, so you feel compelled to vote even for a moderate democrat to prevent them from getting power!” The government has just as much ability to force our hand as we do on it - or, more likely, even moreso. I believe this election is an example of that.
Mmm, despite what the FUD crowd here on lemmy would have u believe, the dems are not so keen on donnie dump and co. as their adversaries. They want to retain power, too. Dr. Fascismo is a massive threat to that end. On the flip side, biden and the rest of the old guard care little if we want lgbtq rights to be engrained in law, support abortion outright bc they want women to be happy spenders of money, and see climate accountability as a threat to their lobbyist friends only at the far end of that spectrum- otherwise they will vote to placate.
Obviously far leftist politics can only come via direct action, but even then democrats are a smaller boot to deal with and should be embraced as the enemy of our enemy.
I think there’s a lot more comradery between politicians across the aisle than they let on publicly. I agree with the final statement, though “embraced” is a far stronger word than I’d pick.
It’s been achieved several times, and I’m sure you’ll remember it the instant you have an opportunity to talk about this or that elected socialist which the CIA had a hand in deposing.
From a historical basis, it’s almost more important that countries like America achieve revolution through electoralism, because it would the revolution direct oversight to abolish and reform the machinery that has been used to reverse electoral revolution elsewhere in the world.
Especially with how much effort goes into trying to rig the system against the possibility, a strong enough electoral victory even for a para-socialist coalition will open the door to exponential electoral capture back from the right.
Filibuster reform can take use to voting rights law, voting rights law can take use to congressional expansion, congressional expansion can take us to voting system reform and multi-seat districting, those can take us to unabashed leftists running independently or in a proper American Worker’s Party, and with the electoral viability of a solid leftist AWP, the sky is the goddamned limit, but to reach the heavens, you still gotta lay the brickwork down here on earth, and that means ya gotta vote.
you’ll actually believe them when they try to tell you that both sides are the same thing.
I mean, look at that last batch of legislation on Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan, and TikTok that got passed through both houses by wide margins. There’s definitely a political consensus on certain issues, particularly when it comes to advantaging American private businesses or pursing certain foreign policy objectives.
You might get a dispute over whether we should be arming Ukraine against Russia or kicking off a fight between Taiwan and China instead. But there’s near-zero daylight on Israel, and its not hard to see why. Same with the TikTok ban, which US social media companies have been salivating over for months.
Ukraine needs to be funded, and the only way dems could get that piece of legislation was to throw in israeli support, but that is not all that bipartisan in congress, only in the streets do i see both conservatives and social liberals both sporting “support Ukraine” stickers. The GOP wanted to pass even more aid to israel that failed.
Not as sure on Taiwan, but agreed that banning Tik Tok was absolutely bipartisan. Also true that US social media companies mist be salovating over that one, but that is not why it was passed. Tik Tok is being banned bc it enables a foreign adversary to spy on our citizens. This one keeps being framed as a privacy issue, but unlike things like the patriot act, there is actual reason to close Tik Toks back door.
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If the democrats hold “civility” and “precedent” more highly than outlawing a candidate who, by their own admission, would plunge the country into fascism, then democrats are complicit.
Dog, take a look at what has happened this week alone (under a dem president): arguing in favor of unprecedented levels surveillance to any president, sending billions of dollars to a genocidal regime, the revelation that like 40% of democrats are in favor of mass deportations…
Fascism is already here. Just because it is being formally codified in Project 2025 doesn’t mean it has yet to arrive. Democrats, and liberalism in general, are unable to stomp fascism.
While I agree, it’s still important to vote Democrat just to keep things from getting worse even faster while we drum up support for a better solution.
Na fuck that. Voting Democrat is voting against progression. Progression will be achieved by igniting the masses. You fuel the fire and the new growth is what will grow to the old forest for your grandkids kids who will never know or thank you will live in. Vote Trump and burn the fucker to the ground.
It’s not enough to just burn it to the ground - the right people need to be behind the fire, or the only people to survive will be the wealthy with all their money and power.
If we work on spurring the people to rise up, buying time until enough people get on board, we can make real positive change; if we allow capitalism to destroy the country, the working class will die and the upper class will just move somewhere else.
The only logical conclusion to that line of thinking is, 30 years from now, voting for the candidate who supports 5 genocides as opposed to the candidate who supports 10 genocides. It is a liberal and fascistic strategy. Any vote within the American electoral system, which is kabuki theater, does nothing other than to refine capitalism and the regime.
I love how unhinged your argument is, essentially boiling down to “Voting is a waste”. Get out of here with that noise. You “both sides are the same” fools are just foreign disinformation agents, or useful idiots.
Lemmy is absolutely infested with this nonsense.
I’ve seen it a lot, yeah. I’m proud of how well Lemmy has pushed back on it.
We’re not doing good enough. There’s still a LOT of threads where the “both sides, don’t vote” propaganda has taken over.
Bud, what? We need a revolution, yes, but it takes time to build it up - we’re not going to overthrow the government tomorrow. So, what do we do while we’re building up that support? Keep the country stitched up with the knock-off duct tape that is the democrats. Yes, the entire thing is coming apart at the seams, and pieces are falling off, but it’s better than letting people actively break it further. There will be no revolution if there’s nobody left to rise up.
Not only this, but our populace keeps shifting socially leftward. Hence why we have legalized gay marriage and why trans rights are even able to be discussed openly. The dems have been forced to shift their stances from the 90s on these issues bc of their core demographic shifting to the left.
Take note that lgbt rights, privacy, universal healthcare, and sensible climate change policies are no longer fringe, they are at the forefront of what the youth wants. Dont believe the lie that things will only get worse from here if we compromise on status quo joe.
The country is changing whether we like it or not. Either the leftward trend of the majority continues and those who wish to be elected fall in line, or we vote for the biggest boot youll ever see in ur lifetime.
Social acceptance of queer people is falling. Maybe if we’re talking about the prospects of revolution, we shouldn’t wait until social acceptance of queer people is so low that no one wants to work with us to make necessary change. I’m not saying revolution has to happen before this upcoming election since numbers aren’t changing that much (even though falling acceptance is always scary), but “society will generally move leftward” isn’t something that should be trusted or expected.
From a study of 22,000 adults published march of 2024:
Support for non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ Americans has dropped four points in the past year, from 80% in 2022 to 76% in 2023.
Even young Americans, aged 18-29, show a gradual decrease in support for LGBTQ nondiscrimination laws over the last three years, declining from a peak of 83% in 2020 to 75% in 2023.
Support for same-sex marriage has declined among Americans in the last year, dropping from 69% to 67%.
Call it speculation, but those are minor dips on the whole- any upward trend will come with temporary dips. The strides weve made in queer acceptance since, say, the mid 2000s, are staggering. The dips we notice come as the queer acceptance and gender equality movements have expanded to include fighting for trans folk, as well. We werent capable of even discussing trans rights up until recently, now it is a hot button issue.
Meanwhile, the average conservative is not the donald trump monster a lot of us are continuously made to believe in by the media we consume. The conservatives i work with on the daily are very quick to point out that they are accepting of gay ppl under far less conditions than they were even 10 years ago. As in, im not talking about, “not that theres anything wrong with that,” but outright, “such and such coworker whom i hold in high esteem is/was gay,” and then pretending that they were never part of the antigay crowd in the before times in the first place. The overall cultural shift in this country over the past 20 years has been astounding to see. I will grant that those same individuals might still have reservations towards gay adoption, but they do not feel like that is a safe thing to openly talk about.
I hope you’re right, but I honestly see our current political options as being the government’s response to our own successful pulls toward the left. “You want to force our Dems to support ever more left-leaning ideals? Well, we’ll just push our Conservatives ever further to the right, so you feel compelled to vote even for a moderate democrat to prevent them from getting power!” The government has just as much ability to force our hand as we do on it - or, more likely, even moreso. I believe this election is an example of that.
Mmm, despite what the FUD crowd here on lemmy would have u believe, the dems are not so keen on donnie dump and co. as their adversaries. They want to retain power, too. Dr. Fascismo is a massive threat to that end. On the flip side, biden and the rest of the old guard care little if we want lgbtq rights to be engrained in law, support abortion outright bc they want women to be happy spenders of money, and see climate accountability as a threat to their lobbyist friends only at the far end of that spectrum- otherwise they will vote to placate.
Obviously far leftist politics can only come via direct action, but even then democrats are a smaller boot to deal with and should be embraced as the enemy of our enemy.
I think there’s a lot more comradery between politicians across the aisle than they let on publicly. I agree with the final statement, though “embraced” is a far stronger word than I’d pick.
You say “build it up”, but what you really mean is “achieve revolution via electoralism” - which has no historical basis. This is liberalism.
No, I mean literally get the people on board with the idea of having a second American revolution. With guns and everything.
It’s been achieved several times, and I’m sure you’ll remember it the instant you have an opportunity to talk about this or that elected socialist which the CIA had a hand in deposing.
From a historical basis, it’s almost more important that countries like America achieve revolution through electoralism, because it would the revolution direct oversight to abolish and reform the machinery that has been used to reverse electoral revolution elsewhere in the world.
Especially with how much effort goes into trying to rig the system against the possibility, a strong enough electoral victory even for a para-socialist coalition will open the door to exponential electoral capture back from the right.
Filibuster reform can take use to voting rights law, voting rights law can take use to congressional expansion, congressional expansion can take us to voting system reform and multi-seat districting, those can take us to unabashed leftists running independently or in a proper American Worker’s Party, and with the electoral viability of a solid leftist AWP, the sky is the goddamned limit, but to reach the heavens, you still gotta lay the brickwork down here on earth, and that means ya gotta vote.
Lol gottem
Sure, if you’re completely ignorant of history…
Man it’s like I can hear how white the people you get your politics from are
Nobody who actually lives the difference talks like this, get off your high horse.
If voting didn’t work they wouldn’t be sabotaging it so hard.
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Project 25?
Seen this mentioned twice now. What is it? Sure i can, and will, google it. Just nice to have a record here for others too.
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I mean, look at that last batch of legislation on Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan, and TikTok that got passed through both houses by wide margins. There’s definitely a political consensus on certain issues, particularly when it comes to advantaging American private businesses or pursing certain foreign policy objectives.
You might get a dispute over whether we should be arming Ukraine against Russia or kicking off a fight between Taiwan and China instead. But there’s near-zero daylight on Israel, and its not hard to see why. Same with the TikTok ban, which US social media companies have been salivating over for months.
Ukraine needs to be funded, and the only way dems could get that piece of legislation was to throw in israeli support, but that is not all that bipartisan in congress, only in the streets do i see both conservatives and social liberals both sporting “support Ukraine” stickers. The GOP wanted to pass even more aid to israel that failed.
Not as sure on Taiwan, but agreed that banning Tik Tok was absolutely bipartisan. Also true that US social media companies mist be salovating over that one, but that is not why it was passed. Tik Tok is being banned bc it enables a foreign adversary to spy on our citizens. This one keeps being framed as a privacy issue, but unlike things like the patriot act, there is actual reason to close Tik Toks back door.
Tik Tok was banned because social media companies didn’t want competition.
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Yeah it was.
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/meta/summary?id=D000033563
9th biggest lobbyist group. Now tell YOUR friends at Meta that no one is buying their shit here and you should astroturf elsewhere.
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Not denying it.
That bill was a compromise, not a consensus.