Imagine being such a persecuted group in America that you get to blast spam mail to everyone in your community in the name of religion with no repercussions.

  • gregorum@lemm.ee
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    1 month ago

    Dear Yvonne,

    Thanks for reaching out with regards to the Bible. One quote I find particularly useful in situations like this which I believe you should take to heart is 1 Timothy 2:12:

    “I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.”

    Have a Blessed day!

    gregorum

    • kromem@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      Fwiw, 1 Timothy is widely recognized by scholars as a later forgery. So it’s effective at shutting up literalists but not as much people who recognize the text as an at least partially flawed effort.

      But that “shuddup women” stuff in the late first and early second century is pretty interesting.

      Like you had Phillip the Evangelist’s daughters supposedly prophesying, apocrypha where Jesus is privately teaching female students, with later traditions claiming their original teacher was a woman.

      And then Corinth a decade or so after Paul deposed the appointed elders from Rome, and the bishop of Rome writes 1 Clement to them, which is all about how young people should defer to old and how awesome the biblical women who stayed silent were (presumably ignoring the earliest women who were driving tent pegs into the heads of dudes).

      Suddenly after this schism and competing materials and tradition owing themselves to female teachers you have a forged letter about how women shouldn’t teach.

      It’s a fun line from the Epistle to throw in their faces, but it obscures one of the more interesting and eyebrow raising episodes to the early church.

      • ouRKaoS@lemmy.today
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        1 month ago

        “This line that I don’t agree with is fake, but the stuff you don’t agree with is 100% truth.”

        • kromem@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          More like “the stuff in line with extensive and repeated archeological finds which is present in lower layers of textual analysis below what’s clear anachronistic royal propaganda is probably true.”

      • gregorum@lemm.ee
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        1 month ago

        The entire Bible is a lie. For you to argue that any part of it negate any other part of it just shows how much of it you’re taken by.

        None of it was real. Wake up.

        • kromem@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          You might be surprised. There’s a ton of BS, but the things it tried to cover up are actually pretty revealing.

          For example, it talks about how one of the earliest leaders and prophets is a woman named ‘bee’ and in her song she talks about how the tribe of Dan “stayed on their ships.”

          Well just in the past ten years there’s been a discovery of the only apiary in the region which was requeening their bees from Anatolia for centuries up until the period when Asa is supposedly deposing his grandmother the Queen Mother, when the apiary and only the apiary is burned to the ground.

          Inside that apiary there’s even a four horned altar to an unknown goddess - a feature that becomes a part of later Israelite shrines.

          Just a few weeks ago there were articles about what’s thought to be a very early Israelite graveyard where they were burning beeswax with a similar chemical profile to this apiary with the imported Anatolian bees and four horned altars.

          Up in Anatolia was a tribe of sea peoples known as the Denyen, who an archeologist in the 50s thought might have been the lost tribe of Dan staying on their ships. And just in the past few years the lead excavator of Tel Dan was remarking that he might have been right given they found Aegean style pottery made with local clay in the early Iron Age layer.

          There’s quite a lot more to all this, but while none of it is straight up acknowledged in the Bible, there’s very valuable evidence of it having been covered up and rewritten in the Bible.

          Just because you don’t like the current version of royal propaganda doesn’t mean there aren’t earlier layers beneath what’s presented that have value in being learned about and analyzed, particularly for history buffs.

          As the science historian John Helibron said, “The myth you slay today may contain a truth you need tomorrow.”

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        But that “shuddup women” stuff in the late first and early second century is pretty interesting.

        The apocryphal Gospel of Thomas (not to be confused with the also apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Thomas) which is dated to the second century is so anti-women that it ends with Jesus basically saying that women who worship him will be turned into men so they can enjoy the afterlife.

        • kromem@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Not exactly. The last saying is widely recognized as a later addition, and you can recognize that it is because it used Matthew’s “Kingdom of heaven” phrasing instead of the more common Thomasine “kingdom of the Father” or just ‘kingdom.’

          But you have earlier sayings like 21 where Jesus is shit taking the male disciples to Mary or saying 61 where Salome is declared as a disciple. And saying 22 has a very different perspective on gender from that last saying: “…when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female… then you will enter [the kingdom].” The latter phrasing is also echoed in Galatians 4 and the lost Gospel of the Egyptians.

          Also, the only recorded group following the text (the Naassenes), who were also following the lost Gospel of the Egyptians, claimed their tradition originated with a woman named Mary.

          The problem is the only surviving version of that text we have in full was one buried in a jar in the 3rd century CE, and the extant version is so late that it’s even combining its own sayings, such as 110 combining the adjacent but very different sayings of 80 and 81. The addition at the end was probably from a point in time where the prominent role of women in the tradition had to be explained away in an era of increased Christian misogyny (likely from the very efforts I was just talking about). Much like how the association with ‘Thomas’ was probably a second century addition to the text after the core philosophy of a dualist reality was anthropomorphized as an apostle to doubt the physical resurrection in John just as the proto-Thomasine sect in Corinth was doing in 1 Cor 15 (with significant details in common with the much later Naassenes, such as the first and last Adam).

          Also, FYI, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is probably a satire. How many kids in a Jewish town in Galilee do you think were supposedly falling off roofs to be lifted back up who were also named after the Greek philosopher known for his paradoxes of motion?

          You basically had a very philosophical text with the core of the Gospel of Thomas using Platonism as a response to Epicureanism, and then around the second century when the canonical gospels are including miraculous infancy narratives the group that denied the physical resurrection as preposterous writes a text with a tyrannical magic child smiting and resurrecting people left and right, credited to “Thomas the philosopher” that’s including a philosophy joke about Zeno? It’s making fun of the infancy narratives. Which is what makes it so much funnier that the actual Gospel of Thomas doesn’t survive the church’s filter except for said jar, but the Infancy narrative actually totally does survive and has monks copying and preserving it because they take it at face value as claiming he was resurrecting people and not as something that needed to be banned.

      • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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        1 month ago

        Even if that’s true–and I don’t know if it is or not, because I’m not a true biblical scholar–the fact is that 1 Timothy is recognized as canon throughout the Christian world. Even if it’s a forgery, it’s been accepted as gospel for the last 1800 years or so.

        …And that’s completely ignoring the fact that most people that get really deep into scholarly historical bible studies very quickly end up as agnostics and atheists, because you can’t square the historical record with any religion currently practiced.

        • kromem@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Here’s a chart of a poll of scholars on the letters: https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/uq26n8/which_nt_epistles_did_paul_actually_write/

          And yes, often people who pursue scholarship tend to have a deconversion moment, especially if they were coming from more conservative or orthodox backgrounds. I’ve also seen people go the other direction, which is a bit odd to me, but whatever floats their boat. The texts are a mess of revisionism and edits that fly in the face of any kind of literalism.

          But those revisions and edits reveal a lot in what they sloppily cover up, or the motivations behind the changes, etc. It’s actually a really fun field of study.

          For example, I disagree with the consensus linked for 2 Timothy, as if you look at the letters given a recent finding that covert narcissists talk about themselves more in their writing, Paul talks about himself vs others at a similar relative rate as the undisputed Epistles, which isn’t the case for any other disputed Epistle, and is much more than all the other Epistles. (Some other reasons too, but that’s the main data point I think is interesting.) Paul definitely appears to have been that type of narcissist, and it may reveal what he did or didn’t write.

  • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Dear Yvonne,

    Thank you for writing me and sharing what you claim to be valuable information, but I am not finding it all that valuable considering it’s a single line from your Bible telling me that an omniscient being can hear me. And I should think so too.

    To answer your first question, I do not think any god listens to my prayers because I do not pray. Your second question makes no grammatical sense. I’m sorry, but I can’t answer it. Perhaps you should see if your god will grant you a better command of the English language.

    I won’t be contacting you for your free Bible study, because I have never heard of Bible study that charges you money… So this kind of feels like a scam. Are you selling timeshares?

    Sincerely,

    Flying Squid

  • RGB3x3@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Seriously, religion is a mental illness.

    There’s a dude where I live that stands on a street corner reading the Bible out loud to nobody.

    These people need therapy and medication.

  • Treczoks@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Call “Yvonne” with your number withheld, and tell her that you don’t want to receive anymore of those flyers. If she asks for your address, tell her to pray for an answer and hang up.

  • skittlebrau@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Respond back that you prayed to win the lottery and you actually did. Watch the mental gymnastics in full force after that.

  • Randelung@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    It’s so absurd. If you read these without knowing anything about a “bible” or a “John” it’s just rambling with an old timey accent.

  • Dr. Wesker@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 month ago

    I’d still rather receive this than the 6 credit card offers I have to shred every week.

  • PapaStevesy
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    1 month ago

    “Pray and, if it’s something god already wanted to happen, god will grant your prayers!”

  • apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    I get these too. It is best to ignore them because if you tell them you are anything but a Jehovah’s Witness, they will hit you stronger with letters. Return to sender will reenforce their desire to send you more too.

    I know some people say to tell them some secret words about people getting kicked out of the Jehovah’s, but I find it hard to be mean to them. They are being coerced and guilted into it.

  • mechoman444@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Ok, how about this. If God answers my prayers and allows me to win the lottery I pledge 50% of my winnings to a church of his choosing.

    From what I understand God really, really needs money.

    • Jimmyeatsausage@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      It only works if you ask for vague, non-specific things. For example, if you ask for patience, then feel more patient… that’s God! But if you feel more frustrated and less patient, that’s also God… teaching you patience by making life suck so you have to be more patient. And if nothing changes? You guessed it; God!