So you’re saying that… I should abide by principles… by allowing my country to further descend into fascism… by not voting for a politician that could prevent that…
Don’t be mad at me because I forced you to confront your own lack of principles. I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar. If we have found ourselves at an election where our choices are between two fascists, then we are already in fascism. If there is no way to vote for “no genocide” then there is no serious reason to vote.
I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar.
Pretty clearly it’s not a very high bar, since you’re supporting an intensification of that genocide and the commencement of several others. That’s a bar too low to limbo under.
Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you. I don’t care who you are, or who might also do the same thing. I’ll hate them too. That’s what a principle is. If more people had such a principle maybe we could make real political changes instead of giving “political capital” to war criminals.
Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you.
It’s a shame you hate yourself so much. Wait, if you’re pursuing multiple genocides, as you are by furiously seeking a Trump victory, is your hate multiplied?
I made the point earlier about how your approach to rhetoric is counter productive.
You’ve argued in just about every subthread of this entire post. You go down each one and there is @PugJesus@lemmy.world trying to convince someone that they should support Biden. But you haven’t convinced a single person that your stance is a stance they should adopt. In fact, when I review the threads, it looks like they’ve moved farther away from the position you want them to take.
Maybe its you, the basis of your argument, and your approach to rhetoric that’s at issue.
Most Federal elections aren’t about good vs. bad. They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.
As I see it, a vote for Biden OR Trump is a vote supporting genocide. On that one issue, sadly, there’s no real choice.
However, voting for Trump also brings with it sexism, racism and an inevitable threat to democracy - in addition to genocide. Crucially, changing the system for the better would become MUCH harder under Trump. Choosing not to vote at all (or voting for a 3rd party candidate with no real chance of winning) helps Trump. It would be giving up on yourself, and society as a whole. It would be saying that things are too broken to be fixed, ever, so it’s okay to let future generations suffer.
I don’t see the moral benefit in failing to choose the lesser of two evils.
A system that only allows you to choose between two enthusiastic war criminals should be given up on. There is no saving or reforming such a system. An election boycott and riots in the street are a preferable choice as far as I’m concerned.
I’m not doing shit about electoral reform. I would like to understand exactly the kind of optimism it takes to believe that meaningful electoral reform is a real possibility. Give me your realistic roadmap to a materially better system, accomplished through reforming the current one. I don’t expect a detailed plan, but what are the broad strokes?
So you refuse to engage in the system and refuse to try to replace it? What the fuck are you doing here complaining? You have no right to complain, you’re literally doing nothing and watching the ship sink around you and shouting “hey! This sucks! I sure wish it was different!” How about you help fix it? Literally what are you doing like why would you do this you’re wasting everyone’s time
What do you want me to say? I do what I can. I could tell you at least some of what I do, but I doubt it would satisfy you. Hell, tbh it doesn’t really satisfy me. Are you satisfied with what you are doing? I’m assuming you’re doing more than just guaranteeing Biden your vote and arguing with me. If I’m wasting anyone’s time it’s my own, you are free to scroll on.
So you base your voting decision on an abstracted philosophical argument? Maybe take a good look at the US voting system and ask yourself what happens when Trump wins because people like you upheld their “principles”.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to grasp that opposition to an ongoing genocide is not “an abstracted philosophical argument”. Wake the fuck up. It’s real, and it’s happening right now. The guy you insist I vote for is angry at the idea that anyone (not even himself) be held criminally responsible!
The only other option is indefinitely worse, so the responsible thing to do is voting for Biden. You can still oppose the war on Gaza. Protest it. Be loud. Fight to change the shitty undemocratic voting system of the US. Not voting Biden will not save a single life in Gaza. You are the one who needs to wake up.
It’a abstract because you aren’t considering the consequences of your vote. Here are your choices:
Genocide, unions, anti-monopoly actions, infrastructure, healthcare, loan forgiveness, an excellent cabinet, and some other things that I would consider generally good
Genocide, insurrection, corruption, hypocrisy, and literally so many negative things to list that I’m not capable of enumerating even a fraction of the total list
Either of the above is fine, pick whichever
Those are your ONLY three options. It does not matter why you choose one. It does not matter what you believe, what principles you hold, or what you personally would do as president. The future that we find ourselves in comes down to this choice and this choice only. I cannot understand how a good person who understands this would make the wrong choice, so my goal is to make it as easy to understand this as possible.
Your argument is the abstract one. You are laying out what I think are mostly bullshit choices, based on hypotheticals and assumptions (abstract). I am talking about what is happening right now (not abstract).
I am definitely not going to get drawn into the finer points of what Biden has or hasn’t done or even more lamely, what he might or mightn’t do, but I will say this: I do not give one fuck about anything in your list compared to genocide. Like are you for real? Genocide but at least some loan forgiveness? Gross.
You basically just said you don’t care about the future and are only concerned with the present if it relates to the ongoing genocide of Palestinians. You don’t care about how your inaction will affect any other topic. You’re like a fucking horse with blinders on.
Nice job including it in the list. I think it is sick to try to bribe me (with any of those things) into supporting genocide. Also, be honest with yourself, out of all those things you listed do you genuinely think Biden would somehow deliver on any of them (except the genocide)?
I mean, I think it’s cool and good, but it was still lame to downplay the importance of the choice of your vote by choosing it.
bribe
How
supporting genocide
Again, I’ve laid out in great detail why I think it’s the least genocide-supportive action possible for us to make at this time* and therefore why it is explicitly the opposite of supporting genocide.
* voting + direct action would be better, but since that includes voting, it doesn’t matter for my point here
Also, be honest with yourself, out of all those things you listed do you genuinely think Biden would somehow deliver on any of them (except the genocide)?
I really don’t want to have to keep a list, because I think this stuff is obvious, but I feel like at this point I should.
Unions: Biden is the most pro-union president in history. Example:
"Nearly all the major labor unions have endorsed Mr. Biden. The board of the AFL-CIO, which represents 60 unions and has over 12 million members, was one of the first to endorse him in June last year, 17 months before the general election.
Over 30 organized national labor groups have endorsed Mr. Biden, including LiUNA, a construction workers union with many Latino and Black members, and the United Auto Workers (UAW). Many endorsed Mr. Biden in 2020, and exit polling shows he won 56% of union households nationwide, compared to 40% for Trump, nearly double 2016 Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton’s support."
Anti-monopoly actions: Within about one week, the following anti-corporate actions occurred:
An excellent cabinet: idk literally just google them. I’m not explaining how what we have now is better than Betsy DeVos & Co. Biden picked a cabinet and he chose well.
And many other good things that aren’t exciting but are extremely important (here’s the most recent Biden article I’ve seen): https://lemmy.world/post/15676395
So that’s a no then? About principles?
So you’re saying that… I should abide by principles… by allowing my country to further descend into fascism… by not voting for a politician that could prevent that…
…right. You’re a smart mother fucker.
Don’t be mad at me because I forced you to confront your own lack of principles. I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar. If we have found ourselves at an election where our choices are between two fascists, then we are already in fascism. If there is no way to vote for “no genocide” then there is no serious reason to vote.
Pretty clearly it’s not a very high bar, since you’re supporting an intensification of that genocide and the commencement of several others. That’s a bar too low to limbo under.
Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you. I don’t care who you are, or who might also do the same thing. I’ll hate them too. That’s what a principle is. If more people had such a principle maybe we could make real political changes instead of giving “political capital” to war criminals.
It’s a shame you hate yourself so much. Wait, if you’re pursuing multiple genocides, as you are by furiously seeking a Trump victory, is your hate multiplied?
Looks like you lost another one.
Ready to shift that full throated rhetoric yet?
“Lost another one”?
What are you on about?
I made the point earlier about how your approach to rhetoric is counter productive.
You’ve argued in just about every subthread of this entire post. You go down each one and there is @PugJesus@lemmy.world trying to convince someone that they should support Biden. But you haven’t convinced a single person that your stance is a stance they should adopt. In fact, when I review the threads, it looks like they’ve moved farther away from the position you want them to take.
Maybe its you, the basis of your argument, and your approach to rhetoric that’s at issue.
Okay, you’ve hit on exactly what I don’t get.
Most Federal elections aren’t about good vs. bad. They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.
As I see it, a vote for Biden OR Trump is a vote supporting genocide. On that one issue, sadly, there’s no real choice.
However, voting for Trump also brings with it sexism, racism and an inevitable threat to democracy - in addition to genocide. Crucially, changing the system for the better would become MUCH harder under Trump. Choosing not to vote at all (or voting for a 3rd party candidate with no real chance of winning) helps Trump. It would be giving up on yourself, and society as a whole. It would be saying that things are too broken to be fixed, ever, so it’s okay to let future generations suffer.
I don’t see the moral benefit in failing to choose the lesser of two evils.
When full support for genocide is “the lesser of two evils” then you’ve already lost. It’s straight up evil.
It can ALWAYS get worse
A system that only allows you to choose between two enthusiastic war criminals should be given up on. There is no saving or reforming such a system. An election boycott and riots in the street are a preferable choice as far as I’m concerned.
What are you doing about electoral reform, I’m curious
I’m not doing shit about electoral reform. I would like to understand exactly the kind of optimism it takes to believe that meaningful electoral reform is a real possibility. Give me your realistic roadmap to a materially better system, accomplished through reforming the current one. I don’t expect a detailed plan, but what are the broad strokes?
So you refuse to engage in the system and refuse to try to replace it? What the fuck are you doing here complaining? You have no right to complain, you’re literally doing nothing and watching the ship sink around you and shouting “hey! This sucks! I sure wish it was different!” How about you help fix it? Literally what are you doing like why would you do this you’re wasting everyone’s time
What do you want me to say? I do what I can. I could tell you at least some of what I do, but I doubt it would satisfy you. Hell, tbh it doesn’t really satisfy me. Are you satisfied with what you are doing? I’m assuming you’re doing more than just guaranteeing Biden your vote and arguing with me. If I’m wasting anyone’s time it’s my own, you are free to scroll on.
Well? We’re waiting.
Which is why evil always wins.
So you base your voting decision on an abstracted philosophical argument? Maybe take a good look at the US voting system and ask yourself what happens when Trump wins because people like you upheld their “principles”.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to grasp that opposition to an ongoing genocide is not “an abstracted philosophical argument”. Wake the fuck up. It’s real, and it’s happening right now. The guy you insist I vote for is angry at the idea that anyone (not even himself) be held criminally responsible!
The only other option is indefinitely worse, so the responsible thing to do is voting for Biden. You can still oppose the war on Gaza. Protest it. Be loud. Fight to change the shitty undemocratic voting system of the US. Not voting Biden will not save a single life in Gaza. You are the one who needs to wake up.
It’a abstract because you aren’t considering the consequences of your vote. Here are your choices:
Genocide, unions, anti-monopoly actions, infrastructure, healthcare, loan forgiveness, an excellent cabinet, and some other things that I would consider generally good
Genocide, insurrection, corruption, hypocrisy, and literally so many negative things to list that I’m not capable of enumerating even a fraction of the total list
Either of the above is fine, pick whichever
Those are your ONLY three options. It does not matter why you choose one. It does not matter what you believe, what principles you hold, or what you personally would do as president. The future that we find ourselves in comes down to this choice and this choice only. I cannot understand how a good person who understands this would make the wrong choice, so my goal is to make it as easy to understand this as possible.
Your argument is the abstract one. You are laying out what I think are mostly bullshit choices, based on hypotheticals and assumptions (abstract). I am talking about what is happening right now (not abstract).
I am definitely not going to get drawn into the finer points of what Biden has or hasn’t done or even more lamely, what he might or mightn’t do, but I will say this: I do not give one fuck about anything in your list compared to genocide. Like are you for real? Genocide but at least some loan forgiveness? Gross.
You basically just said you don’t care about the future and are only concerned with the present if it relates to the ongoing genocide of Palestinians. You don’t care about how your inaction will affect any other topic. You’re like a fucking horse with blinders on.
The options are genocide and loan forgiveness, or genocide and no loan forgiveness. Also nice job picking the least important item in that list.
Nice job including it in the list. I think it is sick to try to bribe me (with any of those things) into supporting genocide. Also, be honest with yourself, out of all those things you listed do you genuinely think Biden would somehow deliver on any of them (except the genocide)?
I mean, I think it’s cool and good, but it was still lame to downplay the importance of the choice of your vote by choosing it.
How
Again, I’ve laid out in great detail why I think it’s the least genocide-supportive action possible for us to make at this time* and therefore why it is explicitly the opposite of supporting genocide.
* voting + direct action would be better, but since that includes voting, it doesn’t matter for my point here
I really don’t want to have to keep a list, because I think this stuff is obvious, but I feel like at this point I should.
Unions: Biden is the most pro-union president in history. Example:
https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/joe-biden-labor-union-endorsements-donald-trump/?intcid=CNM-00-10abd1h
"Nearly all the major labor unions have endorsed Mr. Biden. The board of the AFL-CIO, which represents 60 unions and has over 12 million members, was one of the first to endorse him in June last year, 17 months before the general election.
Over 30 organized national labor groups have endorsed Mr. Biden, including LiUNA, a construction workers union with many Latino and Black members, and the United Auto Workers (UAW). Many endorsed Mr. Biden in 2020, and exit polling shows he won 56% of union households nationwide, compared to 40% for Trump, nearly double 2016 Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton’s support."
Anti-monopoly actions: Within about one week, the following anti-corporate actions occurred:
The FTC banned nearly all non-compete agreements
A great number of salaried workers will be eligible for overtime pay as the salary cap increases over the next two years
Airlines now have to give cash refunds for basically every corner case that they used to abuse
And finally, the FCC just voted to restore net neutrality
These aren’t all anti-monopoly per se but I had this list on hand and it’s similar enough imo
Infrastructure: See the infrastructure bill and its effects
Healthcare: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/03/06/fact-sheet-president-biden-takes-new-steps-to-lower-prescription-drug-and-health-care-costs-expand-access-to-health-care-and-protect-consumers/
Loan forgiveness: This happens like twice a month, most recently today!
https://apnews.com/article/biden-student-loan-cancellation-debt-forgiveness-60ffeaec17737d6317b4aee188893cc4
An excellent cabinet: idk literally just google them. I’m not explaining how what we have now is better than Betsy DeVos & Co. Biden picked a cabinet and he chose well.
And many other good things that aren’t exciting but are extremely important (here’s the most recent Biden article I’ve seen): https://lemmy.world/post/15676395