@PugJesus@lemmy.world is actively working to separate the left from the Democrats and has acknowledged as much. You have no obligation to engage with them in good faith. Their approach to rhetoric and dismissiveness of legitimate reasons why someone might find it impossible or deeply immoral to vote for a candidate that promotes genocide is fundamental to why we see such a fractured caucus today. @PugJesus@lemmy.world isn’t interested in fixing it or addressing the concerns of people who find Biden problematic, but rather, in trotting out recycled tropes from another failed cause, the 2016 Clinton campaign.
Its a basic lesson of history in American politics that you can’t beat likely Democratic voters into voting for you. @PugJesus@lemmy.world 's approach to this is identical to that of the 2016 Clinton campaign: You owe them your vote; Vote Democrat or else. But this approach to rhetoric is a demonstrated failure. You actually do have to meet them where they are at and address their concerns if you want to convince people of something, anything. Its what the Biden campaign should be doing, and if @PugJesus@lemmy.world really cared about Biden’s chances in November, they too would be doing as much.
@PugJesus@lemmy.world isn’t interested in that, and is not arguing or participating in good faith. They are working to further divide the coalition that got Biden elected, and are actively working to diminish the chances of a second Democratic term. I think they are doing so out of ignorant naivety and I do not attribute malice, but honestly, why you do things is ultimately secondary to what you are doing,
Perhaps you should tag me again, just to really emphasize that I’m being far too mean to people who only want to usher in fascism, and what I REALLY should be doing is patting them on the head and telling them how valid it is that they’re sending people to death camps to feel good about themselves. :)
Thank you and no worries on the tagging, I’ll make sure to tag you again in the future.
I appreciate you being a foil so that we can put you and your rhetoric on display. Its reflective of the broader paradigm we see playing out and is useful for people to understand.
In doing so, I think we are moving the needle by demonstrating to people that this approach (your approach; the Hillary 2016 approach) of abusing people into voting is truly costing us this election.
So thank you. I really do appreciate your willingness to just remove the mask and make it clear that you are not interested in defeating Trump this election cycle.
Since its come up a few times now and is the currently underlying the theme of this discussion, I’d be interested to get your take on AOC’s interpretation of electoralism. In context, how do you argue you motivate a base for a candidate like Joe Biden where the candidates policies are such an extreme departure from that of the voters?
In doing so, I think we are moving the needle by demonstrating to people that this approach (your approach; the Hillary 2016 approach) of abusing people into voting is truly costing us this election.
Oh, these third party voters would come back and vote for Biden, if only Biden supporters were nice to them? Is that it? How curious.
and make it clear that you are not interested in defeating Trump this election cycle.
That’s curious, considering my position is that defeating Trump is what actually matters, rather than getting fuzzies because you oh-so-nobly voted third party and let fascism win and murder huge swathes of your fellow Americans.
In context, how do you argue you motivate a base for a candidate like Joe Biden where the candidates policies are such an extreme departure from that of the voters?
Jesus. Do you really think Biden’s policies are an ‘extreme departure’ from that of the voters? I’d like to hear you lay that argument out, just for laughs.
EDIT: And, of course you couldn’t articulate the ‘extreme departure’ or even attempt to. Because that would involve examining the American electorate, which is much further right than you’d like. Predictable.
considering my position is that defeating Trump is what actually matters
I mean, you know that’s not true. We all know that’s not true, you’ve even said so yourself, and your even doing so in this response.
You don’t want to grow the base of voters for against Trump. You just want to punch on leftists because they are sticking to their morals while you can-not.
In doing so, you are costing Biden any shot he has. You could be trying to build a bridge, instead, you’ve focused on burning them down. You’ve said as much yourself. Your approach to rhetoric is directly supporting Trump, and are clearly aware of that.
Which further highlights my question. Go watch the clip. Its only 3 minutes. What do you think of what AOC has to say on electoral-ism, and how do you expect your intentional divisiveness/ fragmentation approach to rhetoric to play into that? Like, if Biden can’t get elected without leftists, and you are working to separate leftists from the Democrats, what exactly is your plan to get Biden elected?
Heres Charlemagne the God explaining this on The View, from earlier today.
You don’t want to grow the base of voters for against Trump. You just want to punch on leftists because they are sticking to their morals while you can-not.
Oh? Here I thought my morals were “Fascism is bad, and should be prevented”. Uh, thanks for informing me that my morals were actually “If I disagree with the administration’s foreign policy, I must usher in fascism as fast as possible”
Heres Charlemagne the God explaining this on The View, from earlier today.
You just want to punch on leftists because they are sticking to their morals while you can-not.
From what I’ve seen, the leftist brigade on lemmy has nothing to valuable to teach anybody about “sticking to their morals”. Their moral code seems to include such inspiring leftist principles as “Ukraine was asking for it”, “It’s always NATOs fault”, “Everything Russian/China/North Korea does is ok with me!”, “Ebrahim Raisi was a hero because he stood up against western imperialism”, and other wholesome takes we could all learn from. They really know how to stick to their leftist ideals, right?
Is this the left we are supposed to be building a bridge to? The authoritarian, tankie-ridden left, that has been so brainwashed by the notion that everything is the fault of “western imperialism/colonialism” that they will happily throw their support behind any murderous regime, even those with horrific records on human rights, women’s rights, lgbtq+ rights, so long as they are fighting against those “fascist” liberal democracies?
Anarchism I can get on board with, because I admire the anti-authoritarian philosophy behind it. But most of the leftists on Lemmy are unfortunately of the “Stalin wasn’t as bad as he was made out to be” type. There is no bridge we could build that could support the weight of all those tankies.
And to be clear, I’m no big fan of the US, and I don’t live there. But I don’t have a hate-boner for western liberal democracies in general, and definitely not if the alternative is living under just another authoritarian regime that happens to be notionally “leftist”.
@PugJesus@lemmy.world is actively working to separate the left from the Democrats and has acknowledged as much. You have no obligation to engage with them in good faith. Their approach to rhetoric and dismissiveness of legitimate reasons why someone might find it impossible or deeply immoral to vote for a candidate that promotes genocide is fundamental to why we see such a fractured caucus today. @PugJesus@lemmy.world isn’t interested in fixing it or addressing the concerns of people who find Biden problematic, but rather, in trotting out recycled tropes from another failed cause, the 2016 Clinton campaign.
Its a basic lesson of history in American politics that you can’t beat likely Democratic voters into voting for you. @PugJesus@lemmy.world 's approach to this is identical to that of the 2016 Clinton campaign: You owe them your vote; Vote Democrat or else. But this approach to rhetoric is a demonstrated failure. You actually do have to meet them where they are at and address their concerns if you want to convince people of something, anything. Its what the Biden campaign should be doing, and if @PugJesus@lemmy.world really cared about Biden’s chances in November, they too would be doing as much.
@PugJesus@lemmy.world isn’t interested in that, and is not arguing or participating in good faith. They are working to further divide the coalition that got Biden elected, and are actively working to diminish the chances of a second Democratic term. I think they are doing so out of ignorant naivety and I do not attribute malice, but honestly, why you do things is ultimately secondary to what you are doing,
Perhaps you should tag me again, just to really emphasize that I’m being far too mean to people who only want to usher in fascism, and what I REALLY should be doing is patting them on the head and telling them how valid it is that they’re sending people to death camps to feel good about themselves. :)
Thank you and no worries on the tagging, I’ll make sure to tag you again in the future.
I appreciate you being a foil so that we can put you and your rhetoric on display. Its reflective of the broader paradigm we see playing out and is useful for people to understand.
In doing so, I think we are moving the needle by demonstrating to people that this approach (your approach; the Hillary 2016 approach) of abusing people into voting is truly costing us this election.
So thank you. I really do appreciate your willingness to just remove the mask and make it clear that you are not interested in defeating Trump this election cycle.
Since its come up a few times now and is the currently underlying the theme of this discussion, I’d be interested to get your take on AOC’s interpretation of electoralism. In context, how do you argue you motivate a base for a candidate like Joe Biden where the candidates policies are such an extreme departure from that of the voters?
https://youtu.be/TBoqy5Tx6U8?si=fOQucO_gJHTa3IRV&t=1631
Oh, these third party voters would come back and vote for Biden, if only Biden supporters were nice to them? Is that it? How curious.
That’s curious, considering my position is that defeating Trump is what actually matters, rather than getting fuzzies because you oh-so-nobly voted third party and let fascism win and murder huge swathes of your fellow Americans.
Jesus. Do you really think Biden’s policies are an ‘extreme departure’ from that of the voters? I’d like to hear you lay that argument out, just for laughs.
EDIT: And, of course you couldn’t articulate the ‘extreme departure’ or even attempt to. Because that would involve examining the American electorate, which is much further right than you’d like. Predictable.
I mean, you know that’s not true. We all know that’s not true, you’ve even said so yourself, and your even doing so in this response.
You don’t want to grow the base of voters for against Trump. You just want to punch on leftists because they are sticking to their morals while you can-not.
In doing so, you are costing Biden any shot he has. You could be trying to build a bridge, instead, you’ve focused on burning them down. You’ve said as much yourself. Your approach to rhetoric is directly supporting Trump, and are clearly aware of that.
Which further highlights my question. Go watch the clip. Its only 3 minutes. What do you think of what AOC has to say on electoral-ism, and how do you expect your intentional divisiveness/ fragmentation approach to rhetoric to play into that? Like, if Biden can’t get elected without leftists, and you are working to separate leftists from the Democrats, what exactly is your plan to get Biden elected?
Heres Charlemagne the God explaining this on The View, from earlier today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgI3jq3UFY8
Oh? Here I thought my morals were “Fascism is bad, and should be prevented”. Uh, thanks for informing me that my morals were actually “If I disagree with the administration’s foreign policy, I must usher in fascism as fast as possible”
Jesus. You’re serious, aren’t you.
I’m just putting you on display bruh. You are doing my work for me.
From what I’ve seen, the leftist brigade on lemmy has nothing to valuable to teach anybody about “sticking to their morals”. Their moral code seems to include such inspiring leftist principles as “Ukraine was asking for it”, “It’s always NATOs fault”, “Everything Russian/China/North Korea does is ok with me!”, “Ebrahim Raisi was a hero because he stood up against western imperialism”, and other wholesome takes we could all learn from. They really know how to stick to their leftist ideals, right?
Is this the left we are supposed to be building a bridge to? The authoritarian, tankie-ridden left, that has been so brainwashed by the notion that everything is the fault of “western imperialism/colonialism” that they will happily throw their support behind any murderous regime, even those with horrific records on human rights, women’s rights, lgbtq+ rights, so long as they are fighting against those “fascist” liberal democracies?
Anarchism I can get on board with, because I admire the anti-authoritarian philosophy behind it. But most of the leftists on Lemmy are unfortunately of the “Stalin wasn’t as bad as he was made out to be” type. There is no bridge we could build that could support the weight of all those tankies.
And to be clear, I’m no big fan of the US, and I don’t live there. But I don’t have a hate-boner for western liberal democracies in general, and definitely not if the alternative is living under just another authoritarian regime that happens to be notionally “leftist”.