In this case, I’m referring to the notion that we all make minor sacrifices in our daily interactions in service of a “greater good” for everyone.
“Following the rules” would be a simplified version of what I’m talking about, I suppose. But also keeping an awareness/attitude about "How will my choices affect the people around me in this moment? “Common courtesy”, “situational awareness”, etc…
I don’t know that it’s a “new” phenomenon by any means, I just seem to have an increasing (subjective) awareness of it’s decline of late.
Generally speaking, consideration for others is inversely proportional to the desperation of a given community. Think about how hard people have to work these days and still can’t afford a decent place to live and food to eat. It makes perfect sense that someone who feels that the system is keeping them down, and wearing them to the bone won’t be conscientious of how their actions will affect others. That mixed with Western ideals of extreme individualism, and a political climate that promotes divisiveness, it’s truly a wonder that anyone has any consideration at all for their fellow countrymen.
Is it not true that struggling groups of people form the strongest communities?
It seems to go either way, depending on all the little local variables. Strong communities, or dog-eat-dog.
Also, you can have situations where if you “conform”, you’re protected by the growing-together, but if something makes you different, that community comes after you, out of fear that you being different will bring even more hardship down on everyone’s head.
My social group is made up of basically goths, queers, nerdy weirdos who grew up in fundamentally conservative and religious towns and families, and are (now as adults) generally very supportive and chill with differences–but we got a hell of a lot of bullying from our natal families/cultures growing up. Based on individual personalities, there’s honestly little reason we were rejected…we don’t go out committing crimes, or bully, or be mean. But the differences we do have seem to scare or make our families feel ashamed of us–so, rejection. And so we lose the protection that the community offers others.
I recognize communities supporting each other is important–but the bit where perfectly good people who are kind and smart and aren’t committing crimes are just thrown on the curb like trash because we don’t believe in religion like others do, or because we ask questions when things don’t make sense…I struggle with that bit, for obvious reasons.
Usually, but that’s what the fierce individualism, and divisiveness prevents.
Yeah but it’s often in contrast to that which causes it. When everyone feels fucked by society they don’t feel a strong community with society as a whole.
Yes and no and also the people being “rude” or “not following the rules” see the people they are offending as not in their community, as they feel their community has been shrunken or destroyed
Yeah, desperation in a community does seem to break down a lot of social niceties, make people meaner, smaller, crueler. So focused on surviving personally that there’s no effort left to give to help anyone else or make things better for everyone.
(An aside below–but it’s related to survival turning people selfish and cruel.)
I follow Kamilkazani on Twitter. He’s a historian of Tatar descent (a minority in Russia), and I think did most of his scholarly studies on China and Chinese history originally, but when the Ukrainian war started, he did a lot of threads about Russia, and how we got here today from a historical standpoint.
He’s been very eye-opening for me, sort of demystifying what happened, and more importantly, laying out the historical and CULTURAL reasons behind it happening. Like, there’s cause and effect, even if it’s not the sort of cause and effect that I’m familiar with in my own country and culture. (His thread alone on “salt” is really astute.)
He looks at things from a very pragmatic historical background, and had a long thread that was the first thing that adequately explained to me why Russia was doing/saying the things it did, things that seemed quite bizarre if you’re looking at it from an American cultural lens.
Part of it is that there’s (and I’m paraphrasing my understanding–you guys should go back and read his threads for the original as I might have misinterpreted) an exaggerated individualism, far beyond what Americans do, in Russian culture.
Like, there’s a lot of “me and mine got ours, so you’re on your own”, or things like “sure, that guy is lying, but it’s MY guy lying so it’s ok.” Hyper-focused on the individual and their family and their local in-groups. And probably an artifact of how brutal the government has been for centuries.
And that “sheer struggle to survive turning people cruel, petty, and mean” has sort of been circling around my head, over and over.
It doesn’t need centuries. Just look at the nineties in Russia and you can easily see how someone would decide to not care about the greater good.
God damn you’ve verbalized so many things I’ve had in my head but haven’t had words for.
My spouse and I talk about this often. A very obvious example is how rude (and recklessly dangerous) people are while driving. And myriad minor things out in public in general. No sense of community and a complete lack of consideration for others is the new normal. It got worse during and after the pandemic.
It really has gotten worse since the pandemic, and I see it retry much every time I’m out. Earlier today I was out walking with my dog and kid. At one point we needed to cross the street at a four way stop. However, three cars in a row didn’t even slow down for their stop sign. It’s dangerous out there
Yes, driving, parking–all manner of auto-related behavior are prime examples of this. But I would add that pedestrians are not faultless. Can’t count the number of times I’ve had to wait for a young, healthy pedestrian just taking. their. time. in the crosswalk while a bunch of us are waiting to complete a turn, for example. I always double-time it in a crosswalk–it’s not only courteous–it diminishes the likelihood of me getting run down by someone looking at their phone while they’re driving.
I hear you but is really that big of a deal? Out of all the many challenges in life, slow pedestrians affects maybe like 15-25 seconds of my day at most lol. Who cares if they trot or stroll?
This is the whole point of the post. Everyone should have an intrinsic desire to get out of each other’s way, be courteous, be thoughtful of other’s time, etc. The flip side is we ask our neighbors to be patient as we do our best in our day, and may have things slowing US down.
So the 1-2 punch is: be courteous to avoid bothering others, and be patient to understand that others are trying their best.
If everyone genuinely tries on both those topics, everyone feels pretty good about their public interactions.
When you work at a college you’d be amazed at how much time that takes up. Or kids just darting into the middle of a four way stop intersection on skateboards, or skating down the yellow line in the middle of the road. Or stepping out in front of a car without looking because they’re heads are bent down looking at their phones (which also happens when they almost walk right into you on campus). Or the people who rev their engines and drive as fast as possible through parking garages to see how many car alarms they can set off. I saw that twice just last semester. Or every single day dodging the people who drive on the wrong side of the road in parking lots and garages because apparently they really need those lines to tell them what side to be on. Living in a major city is even worse. And it doesn’t matter if the person deliberately runs out in front of you, it’ll be your fault because you’re the one in the car. At least in my state. Yeah, I’d say pedestrians are a great example.
Lol yeah I mean college pedestrians are the worst pedestrians by far, but that’s part of working at a college from my experience (as student and faculty).
In a larger sense, you’re right of course–but it’s another one of the “death by a thousand cuts” that I encounter every day…
Have you considered that it feels like this because of how you look at it? I used to feel like you do, aggravated at something that shouldn’t be aggravating. It took a lot to realize that these little things are just that. Little.
I’m sorry, but when I’m walking 2 miles to the nearest store, I’ll adopt a steady pace. When it’s my turn to go at the intersection, I’ll take the time I need to go through.
All these impatient drivers are sitting in their air-conditioned car anyway, I’m not breaking a sweat just so they can save a few seconds.
So what you’re saying is that you don’t care about others people’s time or convenience. Which then raises the question, why should others care about yours?
This attitude is the breakdown of the social contract being discussed right now lol
I guess it could be construed that way, but there’s a fairness element to it, too. I have waited for my turn, I’d like my time to be respected, especially by people who will be less inconvenienced than me. They will most likely make it to their destination way before me, too… Which only makes their impatience more frustrating.
I can’t say I e ever been impatient at someone crossing the street. Unless they were purposely being spiteful, they should be able to go at their own speed. Then again, my street has a lot of elderly, so I know they can’t always speed walk
Actually, one of my most embarrassing cringe moments …. A jackass van driver parked diagonally across our street , blocking the whole thing. I imagine he thought it was a quiet street and he could get the van door slightly closer for his pickup. Effing rude as hell and there was no reason for it. So I was pissed off and using my horn to try to get him to move his effing vehicle ….,until I saw him go to the house and try to rush the disabled person he was picking up. Now I look like the asshole. Although I have to say he never did that again
You’re sitting down and they are walking, you can wait
So when ur a pedestrian cars should behave like you want them to and when youre the driver pedestrians should behave the way you want them to. Nice.
Big time on the pandemic front! I made the insane move to travel to Norway during the pandemic and (being a born-and-raised Idahoan) I was SHOCKED and delighted to see 99% of people there wearing their masks at all time. The sense of community is so powerfully present there, it was a big wakeup call, seeing just how shitty people are to each other here.
I think people really only started noticing it during and after the pandemic.
I have always hated people’s lack of consideration. I have always been very aware of it and it has always stayed the same (at least since the 27 years I am here).
The shopping cart test for a community. Or seeing trash on the ground in public places, tells you alot about a area.
The golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Culture is learned from your peer group. Feeling a investmemt in your environment and a sense of ownership in it’s condition change behavior. “This is our public park, so I won’t littler”, vs “This is their public park so I don’t have to clean up”.
I just want to live in a nice world, so I treat my world nice. Even when nobody is looking.
As a former retail worker, I always slightly disagreed with the shopping cart test.
Going outside to get the carts meant going out of range of the radio system that they had all us techs and sales people hooked up to. So in my mind I was like: " fuck up them carts all you want, I’ll go outside, get some exercise, and some fucking peace of mind."
No excuse to leave the carts in everyone’s way and make parking difficult.
I was also a former retail worker, but I guess my experience differed slightly from yours.
My primary responsibility was not getting the carts. I had a lot of other things that I was responsible for throughout my working day that had to get done. But when we needed to get the carts, I would often be the one asked to go.
When people left the carts all over the place like animals, it made my job take longer. And that meant I had more to catch up on back in the store once I finished. Not to mention, being out in the hot sun, or the rain, or the snow was not my definition of a fun time, so I typically wanted to be done with it as quickly as possible.
People would just toss their carts into empty spaces or onto foliage dividers, even making eye contact with me and smiling as they proudly sauntered back to their soccer mom SUVs, as if they somehow believed they were giving me the gift of job security. Sometimes they also confused “shopping cart” for “trash can”. I hated those people. I honestly wished death on some of them. I still can’t stand people like that today and I make every effort to not be one of them now.
Years ago a buddy of mine worked at one of the big chain stores. He would always talk about how much he loved to be sent on cart retrieval, for the reasons you mention.
Interesting, I’ve always put my cart back with the thought that someone won’t have to work as much if I do
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When considering the golden rule, it can help to recall many ‘others’ would prefer folks not ‘do unto them’ in the same way… or, frankly, at all.
The shopping cart test for a community. […] Culture is learned from your peer group.
Perfect example… Germany universally has this deposit system for their shopping carts but bypassed the handling and inserting of a coin into the cart at the height of covid.
Since then I have barely seen any reversal there. People still return their carts although they don’t need to get their coin back where the system is still disabled. Or they just conveniently forget to use the system and still bring their carts back without locking them there where the system is operational again.
The actual deposit was basically only needed for the learning phase. After this it just works automatically.
I’m not witnessing this rampant disregard for the social contract. Most people pay their taxes, don’t assault others, follow traffic laws, etc.
I guess there are examples like for example the mask thing during the pandemic. But we can have different opinions on what constitutes the social contract.
Maybe I believe I should only wear a mask when I’m sick. If I follow that protocol, in my mind I am still following the rules of the social contract. Someone who believes you should wear a mask 100% of the time may feel I am not following the social contract.
Some people would agree with the first and some with the second and others with something entirely different.
The real litmus test for me is the laws. The social contract isn’t simply a morality / ethics thing. It’s an agreement “you don’t get in my way and I won’t get in yours” and that’s pretty much what has sparked our common laws.
I think many people just have a fundamental misunderstanding that they are indeed a part of something larger.
I keep in mind that observation bias is a thing and I can’t remember the people around me who are constantly following it.
Many years ago I was walking out of Port Authority and a women, clearly mentally ill, ran up to me and wacked me in the back. There is zero doubt that I have passed well over 10k people in that area in my life. I only remember 1 of them because of what she did 1 time to me.
the notion that we all make minor sacrifices in our daily interactions in service of a “greater good” for everyone.
That’s a talking point abusers and their supporters commonly use to convince victims to accept abuse and to continue to suffering.
No just society expects you to subordinate your unailenable right to defend yourself from violence, for example, but many states do, and they can and will arrest and imprison abuse victims for fighting back on those grounds.
Anyone who tells you to make sacrifices for the greater good is being immoral and should be ignored.
Greater goods do not require sacrifices.
i wholeheartedly disagree. Do I want to drive through every single red light to get to where I’m going? Of course! Do I? No because we cant have a function transport system without me sacrificing that. Do i want to blast music at 2am sometimes? yes, but do I? no because that would be unfair to my neighbors. There are a million examples I could pull from to prove my point.
Other people explicitly don’t do those things and suffer no consequences. And I am expected to sacrifice my health and well-being tolerating it for a low-status place in a society that never wanted me in the first place, so who exactly is benefitting from all of those sacrifices? Not me and not you. Only evil people who take advantage of it to benefit themselves and are willing to be aggressive to defend it get anything out of it, so my point stands. Being expected to sacrifice yourself for a greater good is immoral.
I wish more people would engage with this at the cinema
Everyone in this thread is ignoring all of the invisible things we do everyday as part of the social contract:
-Every time someone stops at a red light
-Every time we accept a piece of paper and in return render some service or surrender some treasure
-Every person waiting in line everywhere
-Every person who pays taxes
-Every time we go to the grocery store and just take it for granted that there will be food at the grocery store
I get it some a-hole cut you off in traffic. But we rely on our social contract to literally stay alive. It is a miracle and the pinnacle of human achievement. Maybe just say thank you?
Not enough people were taught that they should treat other people how they, themselves, would like to be treated.
Well, it’s that or they just have zero self-respect.
What really gets me is the little stuff.
Major asshole stuff you can just write off as that person being a cunt by nature. But the dude on the bus playing tiktoks at full volume with 0 disregard probably isn’t some irredeemable asshole, he’s just a normal guy that doesn’t give a fuck. Same with people that put their bags on seats or park in the way of traffic, or litter etc.
I would just sit next to him and ask him to describe every single video to me
I am with you on this. Also when the effort requires feels so small relative to other situations, it hits me worse too
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Thanks for linking that! I really enjoyed it.
I love this! I posted it a few weeks back an no one replied. I love talking about it. It genuinely did alter my personal philosophies when I saw it back in 2017 or whenever.
One thing I had forgotten until going through it again was how important Nicky says the environment is to forming trust. A Everything about being a copycat is moot when we are in environments without repeat interactions and without non zero sum games.
This was really neat, thank you for sharing it.
I think in the US at least, people increasingly have accepted the notion that it’s everyone for themselves, and any sense of “us together” is absent. And when you look at our national values and what sort of policy actually gets discussed and passed, it can be difficult to disagree with that idea. We have millions of Republicans who would do anything for Trump, but won’t do the most minor thing to help their fellow citizens for example. We have a government that helps businesses, but won’t help regular people.
And this sort of mentality is widespread throughout society. It gives people the idea of “You don’t care about me, so why should I care about you?” In a moral vacuum, maybe the effect wouldn’t be so pronounced, but in reality, it becomes an engine of apathy which gradually consumes more and more of the social consciousness and destroys the threads which hold that social contract together.
I recognize what you’re saying. I’ve accepted it to some degree but I don’t like it. I think it also comes down to different views, morals and values. It’s easy to look at a person that misbehaves according to your own values and feel disappointed by them. One thing to remember is that they have their own views about what’s right and wrong and your own views aren’t necessarily the right ones.
A lot of things are pretty universally considered to be wrong
This is increasingly a problem in my country (New Zealand) too, its not just the USA. It seems to be mostly a Western world thing. Going to Japan and places like that where the social contract is still upheld is very refreshing
