• Australis13@fedia.io
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    2 months ago

    This is one case where I think Windows is appropriately designed for its target audience.

    • stoy@lemmy.zip
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      2 months ago

      I don’t really see the benefit of allowing users to create files with the same name in the same directory, yeah, yeah I know that case sensitivity means that it isn’t same name, but imagine talking to a user, guiding them to open the file /tmp/doc/File and they open /tmp/doc/file instead

      • MartianSands@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        The reason, I suspect, is fundamentally because there’s no relationship between the uppercase and lowercase characters unless someone goes out of their way to create it. That requires that the filesystem contain knowledge of the alphabet, which might work if all you wanted was to handle ASCII in American English, but isn’t good for a system which needs to support the whole world.

        In fact, the UNIX filesystem isn’t ASCII. It’s also not unicode. UNIX uses arbitrary byte strings, with special significance given to a very small number of bytes (just ‘/’ and ‘\0’, I think). That means people are free to label files in whatever way they like, and their terminals or other applications are free to render them in whatever way seems appropriate, without the filesystem having to understand unicode.

        Adding case insensitivity would therefore actually be significant and unnecessary complexity to add to the filesystem drivers, and we’d probably take a big step backwards in support for other languages

        • stoy@lemmy.zip
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          2 months ago

          Oh, I realize why it is, I just don’t see it as an advantage, the whole argument is just a technical one, not a usabillity one.

        • LarmyOfLone@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          You’re basically arguing that a system shouldn’t support user friendly things because that would add significant burden to the programmer.

          The quintessential linux philosophy. Well done! I mean, what is language? Why have named code variables? This is just a random array of bytes!

          • MartianSands@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            No, I’m arguing that the extra complexity is something to avoid because it creates new attack surfaces, new opportunities for bugs, and is very unlikely to accurately deal with all of the edge cases.

            Especially when you consider that the behaviour we have was established way before there even was a unicode standard which could have been applied, and when the alternative you want isn’t unambiguously better than what it does now.

            “What is language” is a far more insightful question than you clearly intended, because our collective best answer to that question right now is the unicode standard, and even that’s not perfect. Making the very core of the filesystem have to deal with that is a can of worms which a competent engineer wouldn’t open without very good reason, and at best I’m seeing a weak and subjective reason here.

            • LarmyOfLone@lemm.ee
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              2 months ago

              Well you’re just asking an economic question, are the costs worth the benefits?

              I’d argue that linux will never be a good or user friendly operating system without case insensitive filenames.

              That isn’t an opinion but could be verified through scientific study of how confused people act. You don’t even need computers, just ask someone to get the “something SomeTHing” from a labeled box in a cupboard. Presumably science would show that case insensitive naming of things is always less confusing when humans actually use the system.

              The truth is that programmers enjoy writing code far more than reading code. And especially to open source developers “usability” is a dirty word. It’s not about the value of a thing, it’s about the beauty of how it is done.

      • Damage@feddit.it
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        2 months ago

        Let’s say you have a software that generates randomly named files, having the ability to use both upper case and lower case means you can have more files with the same amount of characters, but that sounds horrible and it’s the only thing I can think of atm

      • Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        Idiot user! ;)

        In case it’s not obvious, I agree that I don’t see much of a point in case sensitivity in an OS outside of simply providing additional options for various uses, it absolutely would be confusing for end users having to interact with it in many ways.

    • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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      macOS also does this by default, but you can change it (though you have to reformat the disk in question). This is generally fine for non-system disks if you REALLY need it for some reason, but afaik it is not recommended for the OS disk due to assumptions that macOS-targeted binaries make (similar to the windows regex version matching that caused problems for a while because it became the unofficial best way to check windows versions for app install compatibility). It’s doubly annoying on newer Apple systems because the integrated SSDs are WAY faster than pretty much anything else you can connect to it. But for the most part, I find it’s more of a nuisance to keep in mind than a real problem (I’ve been dealing with dev-issue MBPs since about 2012).

      As in the windows case, this is also an appropriate choice for the average Apple user (though the fact that they’re fairly ubiquitous as dev machines in many places is annoying on several levels, despite the generally solid best-case performance and thermals I’ve observed).

      • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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        2 months ago

        Huh I had thought case-sensitive was default on APFS/HPFS and you had to choose insensitive specifically but I guess not

        • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          Just checked on my work box - if you go into Disk Utility and start the process to add a volume, the default selection is APFS, and there’s an option in the dropdown for for APFS (Case-sensitive)

  • FQQD@lemmy.ohaa.xyz
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    It’s neat that Linux has the ability to do this, but I honestly can’t think of a good usecase for this. I think this is more confusing than it is useful

        • OrganicMustard@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Create multiple branches that only differ in cases from a Unix OS so it breaks git for Windows users in the same project.

          • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            We had a repo with some really weird (filename) case issues on Mac also. I could only fix it on my home Linux machine, by deleting all the affected files, committing that, then restoring them with all lowercase names. Only time I’ve dealt with that in 20 years but it can happen!

    • gramie@lemmy.ca
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      2 months ago

      I feel the same way about programming languages. There is no way that “User” and “user” should refer to different variables. How many times has that screwed people up, especially in a weekly typed language?

      One of the many things that I feel modern versions of Pascal got right.

      • Serinus@lemmy.world
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        Nope. Completely different.

        Case is often used to distinguish scope. Lowercase is local while uppercase is public. “Name = name” is a pretty standard convention, especially in constructors.

        There is a ubiquitous use case in programming. There is not in the file system.

        • gramie@lemmy.ca
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          2 months ago

          My point is not about how case is meant to be used my point is that it is very easy to make a mistake that is difficult to spot. I think it makes a lot more sense to the case insensitive, and force different names to be used.

        • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          This is the first time I’ve seen uppercase denoting scope. Usually it is done with a “_” or “__” prefix.

          Casing styles usually mean different identifier types.

          snake_case or pascalCase for functions and variables, CamelCase for types, UPPER_SNAKE_CASE for constants, and so on.

          If we want to apply this to file systems, you could argue something like: CamelCase for directories, snake_case for files, pascalCase for symlinks, UPPER_SNAKE_CASE for hidden files.

    • 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      It’s quite useful for stuff like PROGRAM and Program in the same directory where PROGRAM is the program itself and Program is some unrelated files about the program. Bad example, but the case stands.

      • redisdead@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        So what you’re telling me is that it’s useful when the software you use is made by absolute idiots?

        • 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          It’s not about software. Program, PROGRAM were just placeholders for content. I know you can think more abstract and argue in better faith than this.

    • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      I think if you can write them in two different ways it should consider them two different things

  • mrvictory1@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Windows and NTFS support case sensitive filenames. The functionality is disabled for compatibility reasons.

  • arthurpizza@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    I can make a file named COM1 on Linux. That’s on the forbidden list for Windows.

    The forbidden list:

    • CON
    • PRN
    • AUX
    • CLOCK$
    • NUL
    • COM1
    • COM2
    • COM3
    • COM4
    • COM5
    • COM6
    • COM7
    • COM8
    • COM9
    • LPT1
    • LPT2
    • LPT3
    • LPT4
    • LPT5
    • LPT6
    • LPT7
    • LPT8
    • LPT9
  • stupidcasey@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    But why though? Do you really want a bunch of file.txt File.txt FILE.txt fIle.txt FiLe.txt FIle.txt flIe.txt… I once had a nasty bug the O in a file name was a 0 and I didn’t notice I can’t imagine the horrors this would cause.

    • inverted_deflector@startrek.website
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      Yeah I’ve definitely run into issues where case sensitivity causes problems. Especially in programs that are cross-functional between Windows and Linux. Like when I recently downloaded some bios files for a Playstation emulator and I spend time figuring out and troubleshooting why they weren’t working until it finally hit me the door McFly it’s cause the file name was in lowercase not uppercase. Than I cared to admit to figure out

      • AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Oooh, I’ve had that with some device. I think it was a camera or something like that. I’d forgotten about it. It took me ages to figure it out.

    • Moah@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      2 months ago

      Yours is not too question why, yours is to admire the marvel of technology even if it’s worth than useless

    • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      surely this is the only place where we would run into stupid syntax problems, right?

      imo syntax bugs will be a thing until the end of time, they certainly beat having to rip out 90% of what you’ve done to fix it that’s for sure.

  • 9point6@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Oh it’s even better, windows explorer can’t really do case sensitive

    But NTFS is a case sensitive file system

    This occasionally manifests in mind boggling problems

    • Wolf314159@startrek.website
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      2 months ago

      Yeah, it’s super weird. I once named a file with mixed case, but one of the letters was the wrong case. Renaming the file didn’t work at first. Renaming a file named PAscalCase.txt to PascalCase.txt resulted in no change to the filename. Windows continued to show it as PAscalCase.txt. I had to rename it to something totally different with different characters entirely, then rename it again to get it right.

      • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Renaming it in Explorer does actually rename the file if all you change is the case (in current Windows, at least, see the pedantry below), but whatever mechanism Explorer uses to determine “has this file’s name changed” is apparently case insensitive. So it won’t refresh the file list. I imagine this is yet another one of those damn fool Windows 95 holdovers, or something.

        You don’t have to do any multiple-renaming jiggery pokery. Just press F5 to refresh that Explorer window and magically then it’ll show you that the file’s name was indeed changed all along.

        • Wolf314159@startrek.website
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          Nope. Tried that. Tried DIR in a command window too. But I never specified even what version of Windows I was running, so I’m a little unclear why you’re trying to troubleshoot a problem I was experiencing on windows nearly a decade ago. I guess this is what be mansplained too feels like.

      • Scrollone@feddit.it
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        2 months ago

        I wouldn’t do it though. It can only lead to problems, especially with poorly coded programs.

        • Kushan@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          It’s generally fine, the vast majority of applications are fine with it, it’s mainly the legacy shit that falls over.

          You can also enable it on a per directory basis, and I’ve yet to encounter a Dev tool that has issues with it. Same for the path limit, you can have long paths enabled too.

    • stupidcasey@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Lol, I have a NTFS drive in a Linux container so I didn’t have to re download everything I had on windows works perfectly fine, now I’m assuming if I ever try to move it back to windows something horrible will break.

    • MudMan@fedia.io
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      Yeah, right? Are we pretending that having case sensitive file names isn’t a bad call, or…? There are literally no upsides to it. Is that the joke?

      • RandomLegend [He/Him]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 months ago

        I’m with you here, i find it infuriating and i never ever had the situation where this was beneficial.

        Like who tf actually creates a File.txt, file.txt AND FILE.TXT in one place and actually differentiates them with that.

        • MudMan@fedia.io
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          I mean, it’s less of an issue on Linux for both design and user profile reasons, but imagine a world where somebody can send all the normie Windows users a file called Chromesetup.exe to sit alongside ChromeSetup.exe. Your grandma would never stop calling you to ask why her computer stopped working, ever.

        • macniel@feddit.org
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          2 months ago

          Isn’t it less strain on the Filesystem? keeping a sanitised filename next to the actual filename surely has some drawbacks.

        • dev_null@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          For example I might store blobs of data processed by my database in files that have the Base64 ID of the blob as the filename. If the filesystem was case insensitive, I’d be getting collisions.

          Users probably don’t make such files, no. But 99% of files on a computer weren’t created by the user, but are part of some software, where it may matter.

          And often software originally written for Linux or macOS and then ported to Windows ends up having problems due to this.

      • Lucy :3@feddit.org
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        2 months ago

        For files of casual users it might be of benefit. They don’t care about capitalization. For system files, I find it pretty weird to name them with random capitalization, and it’s actually pretty annoying. Only lower- (or upper-)case would be ok tho.

        • MudMan@fedia.io
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          Well, camel case does help readability on file names. But I guess that’s the point of case insensitive names, it doesn’t matter. However you want to call them will work.

    • huginn@feddit.it
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      2 months ago

      CMV: all Linux files should be case insensitive, displayed as lowercase and mandatory snake_case.

    • plumbercraic@lemmy.sdf.org
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      I absolutely fail to see the utility of having a user called Bob and bob, or a dir called Downloads and downloads. Capitalisation makes sense in code - at a glance I can know I’m looking at a Class or a var, but for system administration it has only ever wasted time, and not once made anything easier.

    • platypus_plumba@lemmy.world
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      I honestly don’t get why everyone is agreeing with Windows on this one. I just love how explicit Linux is.

      file.txt is fucking file.txt. Don’t do any type extra magic. Do exactly as I’m saying. If I say “open file.txt”, it is “open file.txt”, not “open File.txt”.

      The feature isn’t being able to create filenames with the same name, nobody does that. The feature is how explicit it is.

      It would be so confusing to read some code trying to access FILE.TXT and then find the filesystem has file.txt

  • radamant@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Windows way is superior, in my opinion. I don’t think there’s a need for File.txt and fILE.txt

    • lily33@lemm.ee
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      Indeed. Linux audio also allows control characters like backspace to be part of a file name (though it is harder to make such file as you can’t just type the name). Which is just horrible.

  • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    I’m with windows on this one. Case insensitive is much more ergonomics with the only sacrifice represented by this meme. And a little bit of performance of course. But the ergonomics are worth it imo.

    • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      so cool story, on linux theres this thing called you can just not make case sensitive files, i do it a lot.

      You can also just, use a case insensitive autocomplete setup as well. If you’re using a mouse idk why you’re even talking about this so that wouldn’t matter.

          • exu@feditown.com
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            2 months ago

            If I have two folders in my directory, Dir1 and dir2, what does d <TAB> autocomplete to and what should it do?

            • ReCursing@lemmings.world
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              In the case of zsh it will quite happily do either and ask you which you meant just like if they were called Dir1 and Dir2. Also works if you have a dir1 and Dir2 in the same directory as well

      • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        When you say "canse insensitive file*, do you mean lowercase files? Or is there an option?

        Idk why we talking about mouses. When I’m on Linux, most of the time it’s through ssh.

  • MehBlah@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    What I really like is a naming files with a forbidden windows character in Linux and they wont copy over to a windows partition. I end up using a question mark quite a bit for some reason.

  • SwingingTheLamp
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    Case-sensitive is easier to implement; it’s just a string of bytes. Case-insensitive requires a lot of code to get right, since it has to interpret symbols that make sense to humans. So, something over wondered about:

    That’s not hard for ASCII, but what about Unicode? Is the precomposed ç treated the same lexically and by the API as Latin capital letter c + combining cedilla? Does the OS normalize all of one form to the other? Is ß the same as SS? What about alternate glyphs, like half width or full width forms? Is it i18n-sensitive, so that, say, E and É are treated the same in French localization? Are Katakana and Hiragana characters equivalent?

    I dunno, as a long-time Unix and Linux user, I haven’t tried these things, but it seems odd to me to build a set of character equivalences into the filesystem code, unless you’re going to do do all of them. (But then, they’re idiosyncratic and may conflict between languages, like how ö is its letter in the Swedish alphabet.)

    • pedz@lemmy.ca
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      This thread is giving me flashbacks to the times before Unicode, when swapping files between Windows and Linux partitions would have a good chance of fucking up every non-ASCII characters in their names.

      There was ways to set it up so the ISO character sets would match, but it was still a giant pain to deal with different ones.

      Blessed be Unicode.

      • zarenki@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        A related issue I still see very often, even with files newly created just this year, is when trying to extract zip files on my Linux systems that contain non-ASCII filenames and that were created on Windows systems, especially ones with apparently non-English locales like Japanese. Need to trial and error the locale I give to unzip and sometimes hack together fixed names with iconv until the mojibake seems to fix itself.

  • Sparky@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    2 months ago

    Fun things happen whenever you upload 2 files with the same names, but differently capitalized letters to a Nas from a linux box, and then try to delete one of them from windows. It broke so hard I actually got a bsod…