- cross-posted to:
- opensource@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- opensource@lemmy.ml
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chrome : chromium :: vscode : vscodium
That’s a good pun. Clearly the authors have mastered the second hardest problem in computer science.
What makes that better is that VS Code is running on Electron, meaning it is running Chromium under the hood. Or at least part of it. Been a while since I read up on it so I can’t remember for certain.
Yes, you have it right.
Codium is actually a species of seaweed. They use it on their logo which is really cool!
Ah, that explains their logo. Always just looked at it and thought it was a bit weird.
TIL!
It’s a bad comparison. Non-Google Chrome browsers (like Chromium) can still connect to Google’s extension store to download browser extensions (like uBlock Origin). Only VS Code can connect to the VS Code Marketplace. Codium cannot. It’s bullshit.
I am using VsCodium and I can install extensions. It’s my default code editor and it has nothing less than my coworkers’ MS Visual Studio Code.
Edit: just understood VsCodium uses a non-official marketplace for extensions, but for my needs I’ve always found everything
The problems are that VSIX binaries can’t legally be redistributed and many of them aren’t even open source in the first place. Many won’t even work if you manually download them and add them to Codium. VS Code really doesn’t deserve to be viewed as open source in any way shape or form and folks need to embrace the Open VSX market place and avoid Microsoft’s like the plague.
You’re lucky to have found all the extensions you need. That’s not the norm.
It’s like GitHub. A proprietary platform that’s really popular for open source development for some reason, when there are actually open source alternatives available.
Nobody views GitHub as open source. Folks do believe that VS Code is open source but because the extension store can’t be accessed by anything else (like an actual open source build of VS Code’s codebase) it’s an extremely dirty lie.
Also, VSIX extensions are full-on software packages. They contain binary executables that have access to both the inside of the editor and the rest of your system. If they didn’t have access to your system there would be no way that they can hook into non-editor applications like your compiler or runtime debugger, or have the ability to pull files from outside the working directory. But they obviously can do all that, either usefully or maliciously.
This is specifically in response to the argument of “so what if VSIX extensions aren’t open source? They’re just extensions right?” No. They are applications. And they can individually contain just as much spyware and all the trappings of proprietary code as if you had used a fully proprietary editor.
Its not a bad comparison. Sure, some details might differ, but the underlying concept of a build that only uses the open source code is the same.
The reason it’s a ad comparison is because it gives Microsoft way too much credit. Making an open source editor use a totally proprietary extension market and have proprietary extensions you can’t redistribute and even having many of those extensions not work with Codium just because of strings that don’t match is fucking bullshit. It’s disgusting. It’s totally deceitful. Especially because the way these light weight editor IDEs work all of the useful bits come from extensions, not the program itself.
More on the subject: https://www.eclipse.org/community/eclipse_newsletter/2020/march/1.php
Damn, that seems to be flagrantly anti-competitive. Has Microsoft attempted to justify why they do that?
I don’t know but this is what Eclipse has said about Open VSX.
https://www.eclipse.org/community/eclipse_newsletter/2020/march/1.php
Codium can connect to the MS market, they don’t do it by default because of unclear legalise. Edit: unclear, not clear
If by “unclear” you mean “crystal clear” then yeah, they don’t do it because Microsoft specifically disallows it in the terms of service. https://cdn.vsassets.io/v/M190_20210811.1/_content/Microsoft-Visual-Studio-Marketplace-Terms-of-Use.pdf
The Marketplace enables you to access or purchase products or services which are designed to work with and extend the capabilities of Microsoft Visual Studio, Visual Studio for Mac, Visual Studio Code, GitHub Codespaces, Azure DevOps, Azure DevOps Server, and successor products and services (the “In-Scope Products and Services”) offered by us and GitHub, Inc. (“GitHub”).
…
In-Scope Products and Services. Your right to use any In-Scope Products and Services will be governed by the agreement under which you purchased such products or services, and will be subject to the payment of fees for such products or services, where applicable. Marketplace Offerings are intended for use only with In-Scope Products and Services and you may install and use Marketplace Offerings only with In-Scope Products and Services.
Unclear because both urls were uploaded to to github under open source license by a Microsoft developer, and then promptly removed. I can’t find it now (could be removed, could be posted in an issue) but VSCodium have instructions on how to change to MS’s marketplace.
Last I read, Microsoft hadn’t replied on whether it was legal or not to use their makeplace, since it was uploaded under open source. Thus again, unclear.
Edit: https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/31168 The issue where the license of the marketplace is discussed.
How does that make you allowed to violate the terms of service for the VS marketplace? A URL pointing to it doesn’t mean you suddenly are allowed to use it in a fork. The license just means you can copy that string of text. It doesn’t give you permission to do anything with it.
Just skimmed the link, and from what I understand the legal document prohibiting use of their marketplace did not exist in 2017 (or I am wrong and it took 5 years for someone to dig it up from Terms of Use).
I think it’s the latter.
Alternatively you can deactivate all tracking in VSCode and therefore make it exactly the same as VSCodium afaik. Only takes a few seconds.
VSCodium uses another marketplace. A lot of addons are either on an older version or not even available. Tried it once but moved back to VSCode after a few minutes. I prefer my addons.
Well not exactly the same. I’m not sure anymore but I think it misses the possibility to sync settings via Microsoft account and possibly via GitHub account as well since it belongs to MS but I’m not sure.
As far as I know the telemetry code isn’t open-source and so is not vscode. The version installed from https://code.visualstudio.com/ is actually under a non-FOSS license and might have spooky microsoft stuff but vscodium is built directly from the source of vscode without any of that.
looks at username suspiciously
Everyone_disliked _that.jpg
Sure. But functionally wise it’s the exact same software after you toggle said setting. I like FOSS but in this case it has zero benefit.
FYI: You can make it use the MS extension marketplace: https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/DOCS.md#how-to-use-a-different-extension-gallery
I find most FOSS addons to be avaliable on OpenVSX. Unfortunately, most proprietary microsoft addon only have limited functionality.
I’m a developer and I always leave telemetry on … when it’s my code I find it useful when there’s a problem so it gets fixed faster. As long as it’s not being used to target ads at me I’m happy to help, esp when it’s free software?
As long as it’s not being used to target ads at me
It’s Microsoft. They will gather every bit of your data they can and use it for whatever makes the most money. Which is usually personalized ads.
it’s a developer tool ffs, telemetry is there to improve crash reporting and collect usage data to improve the software.
some of you need to take a fucking chill pill
Should I care about that if I have adblock on everything?
sisnt know there is a ublock origin addon for vs code
Alternatively you can use and support a true community-driven editing environment dedicated to preserving your freedom, like vim/neovim or emacs.
But that’s something new to learn and configure. I just want to code why should I spend my time learning another text editor when vscodium is fine
Careful. You’re in a linux-heavy audience. They’re the kinda people who would spend a few weeks setting up systems to use it for a few minutes.
That’s simply outrageous!!! As soon as I finish tinkering with my system, I’ll prepare a proper reply…
On a more serious note though. Don’t overlook the role of procrastination in the endless tinkering many put on their boxes. I’m speaking from experience.
Who uses a system for only few minutes?
Well, it’s because after using the system for only a few minutes, I realise it’s not quite right, and I’ll have to spend a few weeks to set it up again!
I’m a full-time Vim and Linux user when writing code. I agree with the statement that “simply switching” editors is very naive. I’m my personal opinion, you should decide on an editor that makes sense to you and learn to be very good at it. If VS Code is that answer, then great. Not everything points to Vim or Emacs.
Who doesn’t want to go through learning of text editor and pain of configuring instead of actually coding?
Well…obviously them.
That’s fine too. Use whatever does the job for you, but give alternatives a try if you ever have the time.
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Vim and EMACS require tons of plugins and a brain transplant to feel confortable using them.
And the new personality tends to be somewhat evangelical about the editors 😄
I meant the new implanted personality. Not historically new.
Personally i find emacs plugin packs like Doom Emacs to make it infinitely nicer, no brain transplant needed
The plural of anecdote is not data.
But isn’t atom and vscodium almost the same stuff?
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I was under the impression that was a fork of atom
No, but there is a fork of atom being developed called Pulsar.
I’m still using sublime to this day. It keeps getting worse and falling behind VSCode with every new feature that never comes gets to it, but I have so many pet peeves with VSCode that everytime I try it I soon give up. I wish there were more options these days, but as the expected feature sets get more complex the number of options keep going down.
Well, if you learned emacs, you could do everything in it and won’t have to change ever again! /s kinda
Same reason why a carpenter should learn to properly use hand tools, or a teacher should keep up on literature. In other words, master your tools. It doesn’t matter which tool you use, provided you can use it to its full potential.
I occasionally use VSCode, but I mostly use ViM because that’s my tool of choice.
For another reason, if your ever in the situation where you need to work on something on a remote server or an unfamiliar machine, knowing ViM means you can at least be somewhat productive when you don’t have your normal tools available.
I know vim. I’m using vscodium with a vim plugin. I was coding in pure vim for half a year because my Laptop with 4 gigs of RAM couldn’t handle vscode. I just don’t want to configure vim so it does all the stuff VScodium does for me
That’s fine, use what works best. I think there’s value in getting at least the basics working, such as syntax highlighting and linting in case you want or need to use it again.
The question was why one should learn to use something like ViM or emacs, not why anything else is a poor option. Master your tools, regardless of what they are.
I would love to use emacs, unfortunately coding in TypeScript is much more pleasant to me than coding in elisp or lua.
Not to say Typescript is a good experience either, I always feel like fighting the language than actually coding. Just saying they are better than elisp or lua.
Also I find vscode has better mouse interaction, but maybe emacs got better with time.
Are you talking about configuring the editor? Ideally, that’s not a common task, so it really shouldn’t matter much if it uses TypeScript, elisp, vimscript, or lua.
And if you’re primarily using the mouse, you’re missing most of the point of editors, especially emacs and ViM. The real power of those editors comes from keyboard shortcuts and combos, not from plugins and menus.
Yes, ideally a editor would work without any configuration, but unfortunately I haven’t met any emacs user with sub 200 line dot files.
I personally cannot remember more than 20 hotkeys to save my life.
Also I find the most time-consuming part of my work is actually thinking, not clicking around with a mouse. so I don’t really need to spend month to remember all the hotkey just to save 2 seconds clicking. In fact, slow down and click couple buttons to commit gives me a bit to rest and enjoy the moment when I have finished a task…
It’s not about optimizing code entry, but optimizing reading code, since you read code a lot more than you write it.
I’m not super familiar with emacs, I’m a vim person, but here are a few examples of mouse vs keyboard navigation.
Search for text in a file:
Mouse:
- select the text
- click “find in page”
- click “next”
Shortcut:
- Ctrl + F
- Click “next”
Vim:
- Type
*on the word you want - Type
nfor next,Nfor previous
Find matching brace/bracket/parenthesis:
Mouse:
- Click on brace
- Scroll until you find the match
Shortcut: not sure
Vim:
- Type
Navigate to the top/bottom of the file:
Mouse: scroll or click the sidebar
Shortcut: not sure
Vim:
ggfor the top of file,Gfor the bottomGo to a specific line:
I.e. If from output from a script, like a test failure.
Mouse: scroll or if you have a plugin, click on the red part (i.e. test or lint failure)
Shortcut: in VSCode, Ctrl + click on file name
Vim: G or
:And so on. Vim is optimized for code navigation, a mouse is optimized for intuitive navigation (but slower), and shortcuts kinda fill in the gaps.
If you just want to get up and running quickly, something like VSCode is a good option. That’s what I did when I decided to help my team out with some FE TypeScript code, when I normally use something else. I actually installed a vim plugin for VSCode to get the best of both worlds.
But if you really want a fluid code navigation and editing experience, master something like ViM or emacs.
Oh, and I didn’t mention one of the most powerful things in both ViM end emacs: macros. I use them a ton when manipulating text, such as converting JSON to a class/struct, or doing repetitive syntax changes that are just out of reach of a regex.
Proper VS Code shortcuts for the above cases…
Find next: Ctrl-f, F4
Find matching brace: Ctrl-]
Navigate to Top or Bottom: Ctrl-Home Ctrl-End
I think it’s the same number of keys pressed as vim in every case.
Probably, and we could go back and forth based on features. My main point was that using the keyboard is generally more efficient than using the mouse, especially since my hand is already there.
So for software you use every day, master it. Master the keyboard shortcuts, learn how to customize things, etc. Maybe VSCode has an option for macros, IDK (I’ve used them with the ViM mode, so that’s at least one option). Using the mouse should be a fallback, not the first option.
You raise a valid point. Personally, I used to read and write a lot of code, but I no longer do that. I still maintain a open source project, but my job no longer involves writing code that runs.
IIRC, the most useful functionality I used to use are:
- peak/goto definitions,
- mouse over to peak doc and type signature,
- find usage in project,
- refractor the name/signature of a function,
- real time linting and quick fix.
I am quite curious on why go to beginning or end of the file useful? Also I am not sure that the basic find/replace is more useful than find usage/refactor.
peak/goto definition
Plugins are available for most popular languages. I rarely need to see the type of a value, and if I want to see the signature of a function, I usually want to go to the implementation as well.
find usage
I just use
grep. I’m already in a terminal, so I have all of those features available. Since I use tmux, I just switch over to another pane and run my search there. For changing the name of a function (which is very rare), I just usesedor do the change manually withvim $(grep ...)if it’s more than just a name change (usually I’m changing the signature too).real time linting
I use a plugin for that, and it works really well.
beginning or end of file useful
Beginning of file: look for an import/constant
End of file: add new function, or a shortcut to the last brace to jump to the start of the class/function. I try to keep files small and single-purpose, so it’s usually what I want (jump to end and match braces).
And yeah, I occasionally miss context-aware search/refactor, but again, it’s so rare that it’s not a big deal. I save far more time with macros than I lose doing manual renames. If I know I’ll be doing a lot of that (and usually it comes in bursts), I have VSCode installed as well. But I don’t launch it very often.
My whole workflow is very command-line oriented, so using a GUI tool just gets in the way for me.
That is valid man, we all have different workflow, hence different priorities.
You can also use Debian 1.1 but the makes zero fun as well.
Why make your own life hard for no reason. VIM is really really outdated when it comes to ease of use.
There is not a single thing where vim is better in any way. The argument that it is faster is the biggest lie ever.
Example: I write a few hundred lines of python code and execute it but sadly made formal mistakes. VIM does not help a bit. It might take hours of bugfixing with help of a command line.
Python addon and some others would have instantly found those mistakes saving myself a lot of headache.
That’s the same comparison as the senior developer and the normal dev. The dev might type twice as fast but making 5 times the mistakes he still needs a lot more time than the slow index finger typing senior.
The argument that it is faster is the biggest lie ever
Vscode is written in JavaScript and running in a web browser. Vim is written in C and runs at a console. Of course Vim is faster. Vscode is a hobbled cripple by comparison.
The rest of your comment suggests you are ignorant of vim with plugins and command line tools. I’ve tried vscode and while it looks nice, I am far faster when developing with vim and a couple of open terminals.
IDEs like VSCose are only powerful because they integrate coding tools like LSPs and completion enginea. Those tools are also available on neo/vim or Emacs, so you can be as proficient as you were with VSCode. Hell, even GitHub’s Copilot is available on vim!
And frankly, having started coding on Atom before switching to neovim, I find a keyboard centric, mode-based coding much more efficient than a usual mouse-centric workflow.
It really boils down to personal preference, but I’m eager to find some objective arguments proving that “vim is outdated when it comes to ease of use”, because that’s not what I experienced.
This is incorrect. Vim and neovim can reach the same level of functionality as VS Code through plugins and extensive configuration. An experienced vim user with plugins is as fast as an experienced VS Code user with plugins.
Getting vim experience and customizing it has a much steeper initial investment. That’s where the disconnect is.
There is an argument to be made that completely mouseless development is faster. This also requires a steep initial investment to pan out.
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What features are available in vim that aren’t in vscode? Genuine question, trying to decide if I should make the switch
This is probably going to sound a bit silly, but legitimately the fact that it’s installed on most Linux systems by default (and if not full blown
vim, thenvi- or rather,vim-tinyoften). VSCode has the Remote SSH extension, but the last time I checked it automatically installed the VSCode server (?) binary on the remote system. Often times I’m administrating systems that aren’t mine, and do not want to leave random bits of VSCode onto it. Even if that weren’t the case, its a lot easier for me to just open a file in vim since I’m already at a shell, rather than having to open VSCode, then wait for it to initialize (though it is quick!), activate Remote SSH and connect to the server which triggers the same initialization since it has to start the server-side component.Another probably silly sounding reason is that the keybinds are the same ones that you use in a lot of POSIX tools like
man,less/more, Firefox even uses/to activate quick-find (while you’re not in a text field of course) though admittedly I believe that is the only one, hell even bash itself if you useset -o vi(by default its in Emacs mode - this is actually a feature of the readline library that bash uses as far as I understand).Though admittedly, those mostly are Linux/Remote Administration reasons and doesn’t apply to everyone - but those were some of my initial motivations.
vim is not outdated, it was easy to use to begin with and could not be optimized any further. Yes, there are plugins/extensions/… to add more features, but on a basic install of vim you have everything you need to navigate source code and config files.
lapce is a vscode replacement that has all the sugar that people love and it’s blazingly fast. It’s still in alpha but I’m very hopeful for it’s future.
I have looked at lapce and I am hopeful it will mature enough to replace vscode. I haven’t had the time to see if it works enough to replace vscode for my daily work, but I am planning on trying it again soon.
Fleet seems promising but not sure how I feel about another JetBrains editor.
Glad you liked it :) It still has issues but the development is happening at breakneck pace. I’m planning on daily driving it once it goes beta.
I also have conflicting feelings about jetbrains IDEs. Does fleet have a community edition? I use pycharm sometimes but also hate it sometimes.
Right now fleet is basically a community edition. They had stated there will be a paid version. So I am wondering how many features will be locked behind a paywall. Hopefully they have all the features from the beta available and just add some enterprise features to the paid version.
I really miss atom, would have been great if MS didn’t kill that project. It would be interesting to see how it would have compared to code.
Hopefully it’ll stay that way. Otherwise there is EAP I suppose. That’s what I do with webstorm.
For me it’s Sublime text. It’s blazingly fast and robust, but because it isn’t as popular as code and not open, there aren’t as many plugins. I honestly think that if it had been opensource, it would have captured the market share that vscose holds now.
Emacs isn’t super great for C#. The language server is a bit hit and miss.
Am I going to be judged for admitting I use KDE Kate on here?
Kate is outstanding
Are there extensions for Kate as there are for VS Codium?
Not remotely as many, but yes. I find that for the work I do It’s more than adequate.
Nah Kate is fine if it works for you :)
Personally though, I use Kate. Ain’t got time to learn new keybindings
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That is incorrect. Both are pretty barebones from the start and have a big pool of extensions to get the functionality that you need. It might be more involved on the vim/nvim side, but that is more of an accessibility VS personalization thing.
There are even sort of distributions for nvim that bring you all the common functionalities already configured.
Am I correct that you also don’t get access to the extensions marketplace, though?
You can add the normal vscode extension repos https://github.com/OliverKeefe/vscode-extensions-in-vscodium
Good to know! Thanks!
hit or miss but many of the popular ones work
I tried it a few months back, and unfortunately the free marketplace didn’t have a number of extensions that make or break VS Code for me.
I settled on relying on my pihole to block as much M$ telemetry as I could.
Just toggle the telemetry setting. That’s all
Note that Codium is a no go if you want to debug .NET projects, really annoying limitation MS put in place…
It’s shit like this that keeps me from building any kind of trust in MS-owned open source projects.
Anyone thinking that Microsoft’s recently found appreciation for open source isn’t a Trojan Horse is a fool.
Is that because of the extension marketplace? Or the fact that the debugger has always been closed source?
VSDbg is closed source, technically licensed under visual studio, and only for MS products. Then they sprinkle some key check that prints a message telling you to use it in an official environment or whatever. It’s dumb and needs resolved as part of their OSS efforts but seems more unlikely with each passing year.
Is there firefox based vscode? (JOKE)
Try Floorp, no idea about spyware but it is Firefox with a lot of customization.
Sadly with much less extensions, i use it just to compile and flash my marlin 3D printer and every extension needed has to be set up manually, for some reason even then i can’t get it to work.
You can change your product.json to gain access to the Microsoft extension repositories. I still don’t do it because fuck ms, for the few extensions that I do need I download them as .vsix on the web frontend.
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No but I am fairly certain Gitlab dose in case that could work for you.
What you think Tauri’s potential in cross-platform ui like editors development?
So you’re telling me vscodium has spyware as well?
No, M$ VS Code has telemetry (so, yes, data collection, spying, or whatever you want to call it). VSCodium is actually FOSS, built from the Foss sources, and also only allows you access to the foss extensions in the marketplace.
Note that you still have to disable telemetry in codium (or you did the last time I used it), because much like dot net core and Firefox, the basic level telemetry code is open source as well and so removing it is not in the scope of FLOSS-only rebuilds (probably why they open sourced it in the first place). A slight redeeming factor is that it’s actually possible to audit the telemetry in this case, and make sure it doesn’t collect more than it claims and disabling it in the settings means it’s actually disabled.
