Okay well I agree it came across that way, like I’m waffling. But I don’t think any economic/political system is a pure archetype, these are all abstracts. Every system is going to be blended and contain a multitude of different elements that change over time. Even any given system usually contains competing factions and struggles. I’m not an academic, I’m just some guy who reads and has a lot of discussions about world events, politics, history, etc., I’m also not proficient in debate, although I’ve sort of exhibited that tone at times. Its fun and stimulating, as I think you would probably agree. I also agree that people arent just “blank puppets” in fact i stress this exact point frequently, however I acknowledge that the intellectual tradition I draw from has developed in such a way that we do a piss poor job of orienting the individual within the system. That’s more epistemology than the rest of our discussion, but if you’ve noticed that tendency in my comments I appreciate the push for clarity, as well as contribution to discussion.
ANYWAY, Iran uses capitalist accumulation, their ruling classes sell resources on an international marketplace for profit and accumulate those profits for the benefit of those ruling factions. I imagine their political economy is a blend of the kind of religious fundamentalism and capital accumulation, with unique historical expressions (along with probably a ton of other things I have no idea about.) I’m not an expert on Iran and I’d be skeptical of any layperson who claimed to be, also the fog of war obscures everything but the most blatant propaganda. We won’t know the facts until the dust of this particular chain of events starts to settle.
But I don’t support islamist fundamentalists, but I also don’t support Israels indiscriminate bombing campaign against Gaza and Lebanon. As I’ve already expressed, Iran was reluctant to enter this conflict despite Hezbollah asking for intervention much earlier, so I don’t think your assertion that Iran is trying to destabilize the region holds much water. Its hard to imagine why Iran would want to attack Israel knowing that doing so would prompt escalation with aforementioned western hegemony, the USA, Germany, NATO allies, etc., unless you want to assert that Iran is just illogical and so chaotically evil they can’t function in their own best Interest, which doesn’t match the history of a western enemy who has persevered under decades of severe sanctions. They wouldn’t attack Israel unless the alternative would be worse. The Netanyahu regime however is facing immense domestic pressure to step down, and international pressure to step down or cease the genocide in Gaza, so it makes sense that they would want to draw in the USA and western allies, as it strengthens Bibi’s and his administration’s position domestically in a number of ways.
However there have been political in roads made in the last decade toward normalized relations, although since countries like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain had been economically partnering with Israeli interests for a number of years prior to normalization, mediated through western partners, this points toward the preeminence of the economic element of global conflict over the religious justifications, which also throws your whole thesis into question. So maybe we could both learn a thing or two.
Considering further, normalized relations between Israel and Lebanon would not bode well for Hezbollah and their sponsors, so the situation presented could cut many different ways. Both the Netanyahu regime and Hezbollah could desire escalation of conflict! Definitely worth looking into in more detail. Thanks for your perspective.
Its hard to imagine why Iran would want to attack Israel knowing that doing so would prompt escalation with aforementioned western hegemony, the USA, Germany, NATO allies, etc., unless you want to assert that Iran is just illogical and so chaotically evil they can’t function in their own best Interest, which doesn’t match the history of a western enemy who has persevered under decades of severe sanctions.
Maybe if the facts don’t fit the theory, there’s something wrong with it?
People want to win, gain power etc. . When the resistance to Israel dwindles, and its existence is a fait accompli ands its violent history long gone (just like, well, every other country in the world) then Israel; the zionists; the jews have won and Iran; the shiites; the muslims; pan-islamist have lost. You don’t seem to fathom how important this is for religious fundamentalists. It’s far more important for a lot of people than having a gold watch on their wrist or a Ferrari to drive.
In war and politics, not every outcome is clear or binary. Should Nelson Mandela and the ANC have given up their risky fight because they faced violent repression? Should Nazi Germany have diverted resources to aid Italy against Greece instead of strengthening their attack against Russia? Same goes for Iran and Israel. Not immediately having a perfect outcome doesn’t mean the intent had to be totally different.
since countries like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain had been economically partnering with Israeli interests for a number of years prior to normalization, mediated through western partners, this points toward the preeminence of the economic element of global conflict over the religious justifications, which also throws your whole thesis into question.
No it doesn’t. These are different people. The monarchies of SA and Bahrain are far, far more concerned with gold watches and Ferraris than they are with improving shia influence in the Levant.
Well I accept your criticism that I haven’t done enough hard research to thoroughly and convincingly dispute your theory of fundamentalism as the driving force behind all these conflicts. I don’t agree with it, and earlier I tried stitching together previous points that I’ve made, such as western support for fundamentalism as a destabilizing force, as well as a history of propping up islamists and sabotaging popular secular leaders such as Mahmoud Barghouti, who has been imprisoned for decades and undergoes constant torture by the Israelis for a crime he almost certainly did not commit. But there are uncertainties I’m not comfortable with and I’m not going to waste our time grasping at straws. So I deleted that comment and wrote this one.
So I’m going to study, find the through lines or understand in greater depth the parts that are missing from my analysis so that when the dust settles and all the facts come in, maybe I’ll be able to furnish a useful analysis for the people I work with to oppose imperialism here in the States.
Okay well I agree it came across that way, like I’m waffling. But I don’t think any economic/political system is a pure archetype, these are all abstracts. Every system is going to be blended and contain a multitude of different elements that change over time. Even any given system usually contains competing factions and struggles. I’m not an academic, I’m just some guy who reads and has a lot of discussions about world events, politics, history, etc., I’m also not proficient in debate, although I’ve sort of exhibited that tone at times. Its fun and stimulating, as I think you would probably agree. I also agree that people arent just “blank puppets” in fact i stress this exact point frequently, however I acknowledge that the intellectual tradition I draw from has developed in such a way that we do a piss poor job of orienting the individual within the system. That’s more epistemology than the rest of our discussion, but if you’ve noticed that tendency in my comments I appreciate the push for clarity, as well as contribution to discussion.
ANYWAY, Iran uses capitalist accumulation, their ruling classes sell resources on an international marketplace for profit and accumulate those profits for the benefit of those ruling factions. I imagine their political economy is a blend of the kind of religious fundamentalism and capital accumulation, with unique historical expressions (along with probably a ton of other things I have no idea about.) I’m not an expert on Iran and I’d be skeptical of any layperson who claimed to be, also the fog of war obscures everything but the most blatant propaganda. We won’t know the facts until the dust of this particular chain of events starts to settle.
But I don’t support islamist fundamentalists, but I also don’t support Israels indiscriminate bombing campaign against Gaza and Lebanon. As I’ve already expressed, Iran was reluctant to enter this conflict despite Hezbollah asking for intervention much earlier, so I don’t think your assertion that Iran is trying to destabilize the region holds much water. Its hard to imagine why Iran would want to attack Israel knowing that doing so would prompt escalation with aforementioned western hegemony, the USA, Germany, NATO allies, etc., unless you want to assert that Iran is just illogical and so chaotically evil they can’t function in their own best Interest, which doesn’t match the history of a western enemy who has persevered under decades of severe sanctions. They wouldn’t attack Israel unless the alternative would be worse. The Netanyahu regime however is facing immense domestic pressure to step down, and international pressure to step down or cease the genocide in Gaza, so it makes sense that they would want to draw in the USA and western allies, as it strengthens Bibi’s and his administration’s position domestically in a number of ways.
However there have been political in roads made in the last decade toward normalized relations, although since countries like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain had been economically partnering with Israeli interests for a number of years prior to normalization, mediated through western partners, this points toward the preeminence of the economic element of global conflict over the religious justifications, which also throws your whole thesis into question. So maybe we could both learn a thing or two.
Considering further, normalized relations between Israel and Lebanon would not bode well for Hezbollah and their sponsors, so the situation presented could cut many different ways. Both the Netanyahu regime and Hezbollah could desire escalation of conflict! Definitely worth looking into in more detail. Thanks for your perspective.
Maybe if the facts don’t fit the theory, there’s something wrong with it?
People want to win, gain power etc. . When the resistance to Israel dwindles, and its existence is a fait accompli ands its violent history long gone (just like, well, every other country in the world) then Israel; the zionists; the jews have won and Iran; the shiites; the muslims; pan-islamist have lost. You don’t seem to fathom how important this is for religious fundamentalists. It’s far more important for a lot of people than having a gold watch on their wrist or a Ferrari to drive.
In war and politics, not every outcome is clear or binary. Should Nelson Mandela and the ANC have given up their risky fight because they faced violent repression? Should Nazi Germany have diverted resources to aid Italy against Greece instead of strengthening their attack against Russia? Same goes for Iran and Israel. Not immediately having a perfect outcome doesn’t mean the intent had to be totally different.
No it doesn’t. These are different people. The monarchies of SA and Bahrain are far, far more concerned with gold watches and Ferraris than they are with improving shia influence in the Levant.
Well I accept your criticism that I haven’t done enough hard research to thoroughly and convincingly dispute your theory of fundamentalism as the driving force behind all these conflicts. I don’t agree with it, and earlier I tried stitching together previous points that I’ve made, such as western support for fundamentalism as a destabilizing force, as well as a history of propping up islamists and sabotaging popular secular leaders such as Mahmoud Barghouti, who has been imprisoned for decades and undergoes constant torture by the Israelis for a crime he almost certainly did not commit. But there are uncertainties I’m not comfortable with and I’m not going to waste our time grasping at straws. So I deleted that comment and wrote this one.
So I’m going to study, find the through lines or understand in greater depth the parts that are missing from my analysis so that when the dust settles and all the facts come in, maybe I’ll be able to furnish a useful analysis for the people I work with to oppose imperialism here in the States.
So thanks for the discussion. Take care.
You too!