The advantages most of us see in the Fediverse (lack of corporate control, low algorithm interference) are seen by most normal users as either of little importance, or actively detrimental. The Fediverse requires you engage with it to cultivate a feed that gives you what you’re interested in. But the people fleeing to Rednote want a strong algorithm that feeds them what they want, and they don’t mind influence games being played by the algorithm in exchange for this convenience.
It would be nice if the Fediverse (or some apps like Sync) had a strong algorithm that you can choose to activate if you like, once you install the app.
And could pick from different algorithms, one big barrier to entry for new users is the UX just sucks compared to platforms they’re used to.
Remember when Musk took over Twitter and “open sourced” the algorithm, although it was impossible to reconstruct anything from what was given, and contained clear signs of being edited and incriminating details suggesting content categorization and prioritization?
What I really want to see is Facebook’s algorithm, because it seems to just produce a neverending stream of alt-right bullshit.
I was mistaken, it was not opensourced - there was a whitepaper on a recommendation system from tiktok’s parent company bytedance, and everyone just assumed it was the tiktok recommendation algorithm when it was published.
We should be able to select different fully open source algorithms from a drop down menu, and load custom ones from fediversealgorithmmenuwithdescriptions dot org, including “no algorithm”.
I assume that’s like a billion hours of work, but, goals.
When you sort your feed by hot vs top vs new, that’s already what you’re doing kinda.
But the platform has to have the data to support the algorithm, so you can’t just “load in” whatever algorithm you want. Besides, that sounds like a security nightmare for the platform lol
I mean, with the fediscovery project, people can make centralised applications from fediverse data (people who opt in) this makes indexing and other stuff that works better centralised possible.
If I understand correctly, that only works with data publicly available (or at least available to 3rd party instances). But there are going to be metrics that fediverse platforms simply don’t make public or even track.
for example: i dont imagine that peertube (or even loops) makes public who viewed which videos, when, for how long. and it’d be a huge privacy issue if they did. Even tracking things like who-liked-what are the kinds of things that a 3rd party probably shouldn’t be able to just check.
without these kinds of insights, it’d be hard to make a good recommendation algorithm, because you can’t really tell how an individual is interacting with content.
Exactly. Every time I see someone post that “akshully, chronological order is also an algorithm” (which I see a lot), it makes me think of the old “what you are calling Linux is akshully GNU/Linux” thing. Please people, let that go.
Because you know perfectly well that when we talk about “algorithms” we’re specifically referring to corporate social media manipulative algorithms designed to increase engagement, NOT a simple sort of posts by date or number of upvotes. mkay?
It’s a “domain expert who interprets ‘algorithm’ as a technical term from their domain of expertise” vs “non-expert who interprets ‘algorithm’ with the meaning popularised by the Media in the last couple of years”.
Sorta, since those from the other side don’t really know if that person is a non-expert or a domain expert from just a post, which is even more so here in Lemmy when it comes to Technical subjects because there is a much higher proportion of Techies around than most other Social Media.
Also, for a domain expert used to using the term “algorithm” for far longer than the common population has even heard it and started using it, it just feels wrong when people misuse it, so it’s pretty natural to want to correct the way others use it.
Also it makes sense for the domain experts who have been using that word from well before it was coopted by the Media, to be the ones with the strictly correct definition of the word.,
Personally and from personal experience I think it’s a thankless fight one is bound to lose - spoken languages are what the masses make it be, not what a few individuals are used to - but that doesn’t make people trying to correct the use of the word wrong.
Well, its definetely possible on activitypub. Every “app” built on the atprotocol takes data from a relay’s firehose and then indexes it and does all the algorithm stuff. There is a project (https://www.fediscovery.org/) that will let people build centralised apps with fediverse data. Although, I could just make an algorithm that looks for keywords a user may be interested in, in the posts database and show it to them, it just wouldn’t have every post to its disposal.
Recommendation engines aren’t the biggest issue. People will figure out how to fins what they want, and be generally happy with that, if looking is easy enough.
The big issue is that “join the fediverse” is a really, really shitty and incomplete recommendation. It’s like “join the blogosphere!”
And “join Mastodon” or “join Lemmy” is bad, too. It’s like asking them to “join Joomla”.
You need to point people to the specific website they should join, and that website has to already have what they’re looking for. People aren’t interested in building something.
You know, if this rednote thing really takes off, I don’t think I can believe the whole “fediverse is too complicated” thing anymore. People are moving to an app that isn’t even fully in English. That’s WAY more complicated than picking a random instance out of a list (or more likely, just going to the one big one). I’m getting to where I think the vast majority of people just click on what’s advertised no matter how stupid it is, and without ads (not people spreading things by word of mouth, I mean actual “ooh, shiny” ads) mainstream uptake of the fediverse will never happen. Good luck outspending the big corps on that.
Might be for the best anyway. The type of people who respond to ads probably aren’t particularly fun to engage with.
They chose the app specifically because its chinese, they still have every other tiktok clone, like clapper (lol), snapchat spotlight, youtube shorts and instagram reels.
I mean, I’ve got definite FOMO, but I generally don’t feel the need to continuously search for new content. If the comms in my feed are quiet, that’s nearly a good thing.
The advantages most of us see in the Fediverse (lack of corporate control, low algorithm interference) are seen by most normal users as either of little importance, or actively detrimental. The Fediverse requires you engage with it to cultivate a feed that gives you what you’re interested in. But the people fleeing to Rednote want a strong algorithm that feeds them what they want, and they don’t mind influence games being played by the algorithm in exchange for this convenience.
I mean, a software could easily do it they just don’t.
It would be nice if the Fediverse (or some apps like Sync) had a strong algorithm that you can choose to activate if you like, once you install the app.
And could pick from different algorithms, one big barrier to entry for new users is the UX just sucks compared to platforms they’re used to.
Eg. Default lemmy Web UI is TERRIBLE
I actually enjoy not having a strong algorithm here. This way I can spend as little as possible on my only social media app that I use.
Personally, I think there’s room in the Fediverse for an app with a “strong algorithm” provided it’s completely open ofc.
My biggest issue with algorithms isn’t the fact they exist, but that they’re proprietary black boxes so no one truly knows how it’s being manipulated
Remember when Musk took over Twitter and “open sourced” the algorithm, although it was impossible to reconstruct anything from what was given, and contained clear signs of being edited and incriminating details suggesting content categorization and prioritization?
What I really want to see is Facebook’s algorithm, because it seems to just produce a neverending stream of alt-right bullshit.
Fwiw Tiktok apparently just open sourced their algorithm a week or so ago.
I wonder if loops will provide it as an option
Do you have a link? I can’t find it.
I was mistaken, it was not opensourced - there was a whitepaper on a recommendation system from tiktok’s parent company bytedance, and everyone just assumed it was the tiktok recommendation algorithm when it was published.
We should be able to select different fully open source algorithms from a drop down menu, and load custom ones from fediversealgorithmmenuwithdescriptions dot org, including “no algorithm”.
I assume that’s like a billion hours of work, but, goals.
When you sort your feed by hot vs top vs new, that’s already what you’re doing kinda.
But the platform has to have the data to support the algorithm, so you can’t just “load in” whatever algorithm you want. Besides, that sounds like a security nightmare for the platform lol
I mean, with the fediscovery project, people can make centralised applications from fediverse data (people who opt in) this makes indexing and other stuff that works better centralised possible.
If I understand correctly, that only works with data publicly available (or at least available to 3rd party instances). But there are going to be metrics that fediverse platforms simply don’t make public or even track.
for example: i dont imagine that peertube (or even loops) makes public who viewed which videos, when, for how long. and it’d be a huge privacy issue if they did. Even tracking things like who-liked-what are the kinds of things that a 3rd party probably shouldn’t be able to just check.
without these kinds of insights, it’d be hard to make a good recommendation algorithm, because you can’t really tell how an individual is interacting with content.
“No algorithm” would load nothing at all. Everything is an “algorithm,” including listing all posts in chronological order.
Wanting “no algorithm” is like wanting food with “no chemicals” in it and not realizing that carbs, fats, proteins, etc. are “chemicals.”
But when someone says they want no chemicals in their food, you know exactly what they mean. This is just being a bit pedantic, I think.
Did someone call for me???
Exactly. Every time I see someone post that “akshully, chronological order is also an algorithm” (which I see a lot), it makes me think of the old “what you are calling Linux is akshully GNU/Linux” thing. Please people, let that go.
Because you know perfectly well that when we talk about “algorithms” we’re specifically referring to corporate social media manipulative algorithms designed to increase engagement, NOT a simple sort of posts by date or number of upvotes. mkay?
It’s a “domain expert who interprets ‘algorithm’ as a technical term from their domain of expertise” vs “non-expert who interprets ‘algorithm’ with the meaning popularised by the Media in the last couple of years”.
Both are right.
But when a non-expert uses the term, its quite clear what they mean by it.
Sorta, since those from the other side don’t really know if that person is a non-expert or a domain expert from just a post, which is even more so here in Lemmy when it comes to Technical subjects because there is a much higher proportion of Techies around than most other Social Media.
Also, for a domain expert used to using the term “algorithm” for far longer than the common population has even heard it and started using it, it just feels wrong when people misuse it, so it’s pretty natural to want to correct the way others use it.
Also it makes sense for the domain experts who have been using that word from well before it was coopted by the Media, to be the ones with the strictly correct definition of the word.,
Personally and from personal experience I think it’s a thankless fight one is bound to lose - spoken languages are what the masses make it be, not what a few individuals are used to - but that doesn’t make people trying to correct the use of the word wrong.
Only eating noble gases.
Noble gases are chemicals too, damn it!
The only thing that isn’t “chemicals” is literally just vacuum.
Only a dehydrogen monoxide addict will say shit like that!
They have at least little tendency to participate in chemical reactions.
Even a vacuum has random particles coming in and out of existence, it’s not even empty space
deleted by creator
Well, its definetely possible on activitypub. Every “app” built on the atprotocol takes data from a relay’s firehose and then indexes it and does all the algorithm stuff. There is a project (https://www.fediscovery.org/) that will let people build centralised apps with fediverse data. Although, I could just make an algorithm that looks for keywords a user may be interested in, in the posts database and show it to them, it just wouldn’t have every post to its disposal.
Hey thanks for the correction - my mistake!
It’s gonna happen in the AT protocol I’m sure.
Recommendation engines aren’t the biggest issue. People will figure out how to fins what they want, and be generally happy with that, if looking is easy enough.
The big issue is that “join the fediverse” is a really, really shitty and incomplete recommendation. It’s like “join the blogosphere!”
And “join Mastodon” or “join Lemmy” is bad, too. It’s like asking them to “join Joomla”.
You need to point people to the specific website they should join, and that website has to already have what they’re looking for. People aren’t interested in building something.
They just want to consume.
You know, if this rednote thing really takes off, I don’t think I can believe the whole “fediverse is too complicated” thing anymore. People are moving to an app that isn’t even fully in English. That’s WAY more complicated than picking a random instance out of a list (or more likely, just going to the one big one). I’m getting to where I think the vast majority of people just click on what’s advertised no matter how stupid it is, and without ads (not people spreading things by word of mouth, I mean actual “ooh, shiny” ads) mainstream uptake of the fediverse will never happen. Good luck outspending the big corps on that.
Might be for the best anyway. The type of people who respond to ads probably aren’t particularly fun to engage with.
They chose the app specifically because its chinese, they still have every other tiktok clone, like clapper (lol), snapchat spotlight, youtube shorts and instagram reels.
Whatever the reason, navigating that is still more complicated than navigating Lemmy or Mastodon
Funny enough, that’s also the reason that democracy is always in the brink of collapse.
Don’t get too high and mighty, you’re doom scrolling like everyone else.
I mean, I’ve got definite FOMO, but I generally don’t feel the need to continuously search for new content. If the comms in my feed are quiet, that’s nearly a good thing.