Can you break down the reasoning for me? I just read the paragraph and all I can pull from it is they think Russia is fascist and that’s why they need to help their own fascists fight back, plus an acknowledgement that if they win they will be fighting Ukrainian fascists afterwards. Doesn’t seem like a very persuasive reason to help the fascists in the first place, particularly when Russia itself is extremely harsh on real fascists while Ukraine has never even attempted to do so and even today glorifies their fascist history.
edit: also I think it’s always important to remember that this war’s basic outcome has been clear from day one - Ukraine does not have the ability to prevent Russia from holding any territory they want. Fighting that inevitability doesn’t seem very good or humanitarian.
…They are? My impression was that Russia had a real problem with reactionaries. In any case, the core idea of the paragraph is that Russia is at least for now harder to resist in. That’s what I found persuasive, but I’m also realizing how ignorant I actually am about what leftist resistance in Russia is like, beyond what decades of yet-to-be-unlearned indoctrination have insisted it’s like.
Fighting that inevitability doesn’t seem very good or humanitarian.
So basically just, “give up already”? That doesn’t sound very… uhh… some sort of… relevant word.
[crickets]
Alright, just imagine whichever argument feels like something an ignoramus would put there. I’m not going to pretend to know anything about anything.
There really are only two major outcomes here: either NATO/Ukraine wins, which means fascism wins, or NATO/Ukraine loses (or a Russia win if you want to call that), which means the spread of fascism stops in Russia (temporarily).
Now, let’s examine what are the major features of a fascist state:
Mass privatization
Anti-communism and banning of socialist/communist parties
Violent assault/murder of left wing and labor activists using fascist thugs
Burning/tearing down/destruction of labor/communist symbols
Every single fascist state in history has exhibited all the above features, whether it was in Mussolini’s Italy in the 1920s, Hitler’s Germany in the 1930s, Sukarno’s Indonesia in the 1960s, or Pinochet’s Chile in the 1970s.
Not to mention, Ukraine since 2013 has fit perfectly into the description with their constant “de-communization” effort, banning left wing parties, burning and killing labor activists, as well as the mass privatization of state resources to foreign capital, if the Nazi symbolism was not the first alarm to be raised.
In other words, fascism is the most brutal form of labor suppression that developed out of liberalism, after seeing the outcome of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. Churchill literally admitted that Mussolini’s fascism was necessary to crush Leninism in his speech in 1927.
Now, I’d argue that Russia of the 1990s under Yeltsin was very close to fascism (neo-Nazi gangs literally roamed the streets as the country fell to neoliberalism). Putin put a stop gap to the mass privatization (with the state regaining control of key industries over the years), but there is still massive corruption and Russia remains a very reactionary state in response to the looting by foreign capitalists while having no means of resisting against them.
So, back to the two major outcomes:
If NATO/Ukraine wins, then the Russian state will be destabilized and allowing Western imperialists to repeat what they had done to the post-Soviet Russia in the 1990s - shock therapy and the installing of pro-Western fascist puppet instituting similar treatment to what they have done in Ukraine. I guarantee you that left wing parties will be completely obliterated just as they are in Ukraine today. There will be no left wing and labor activism left in Russia (the Communist Party is still the second largest political party today in Russia, just FYI).
On the other hand, if NATO/Ukraine loses, then the spread of fascism will be temporarily halted. However, more importantly, the sanctions are now forcing Russia towards industrializing itself in order to become self-sufficient. This is where there is a chance for labor to fight back.
You see, Russia had been happy to be a neoliberal resource colony to the West by supplying minerals and raw materials, which did not require high level of industrialization and therefore there is less leverage for labor. However, NATO encroachment on Russia and especially the sanctions on Russia are now forcing Russia to industrialize, which means the power of labor can only grow from here, which will lead to growing labor activism demanding for their rights from a state that in turn requires their effort to “defeat the collective West”.
This was what happened in WWI - when a war that national capitalists thought would end by Christmas turned into a dragged out war of attrition, forcing state intervention in the economy which in turn shifted the power dynamics toward labor over the capitalists, as the warring European countries literally had to rely on their labor to win the war. There is a reason why socialist movements exploded during and in the wake of WWI, most prominently in Russia that led to the 1917 Revolution, and then in Italy, which was unfortunately crushed by fascism in 1922.
Glad it provoked some thoughts. You don’t have to agree, of course, but over here we like to discuss present day conflicts along with their historical contexts and with material analysis to understand how it will affect socialist effort in the future.
I haven’t got the sources at hand but likely another hexbear user will be by soon to drop some sources on modern Russian anti-fascist prosecution in their country. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think being a leftist in Russia is a cakewalk, but they’re not black vanning communists like Ukraine is. They’re also not putting up statues and waxing poetic about explicit antisemitic fascists and nazis like the Banderite government of Ukraine does.
Just to comment on the “don’t fight Russia” point, consider the situation: Russia is invading with one of their goals being de-Nazification, and if you live in or near Ukraine and are a leftist you surely know that Ukraine is basically the beating heart of Europe’s neo-Nazi problem. A sober look at the Ukrainian military and performance as compared to Russia leads to the inevitable conclusion that if Russia really wants to take some land in Ukraine, they can and will. Does it really make sense to fight shoulder to shoulder with the nazis who hated you before, hate you now, and will kill you or push you into a minefield at the first opportunity? That land is going to be owned by foreign capitalists or Russia, there’s nothing you can do to stop that. If you have to pick up weapons, might as well aid Russia and help them remove the Nazi rot from your country - particularly when Russia’s never had any demonstrable interest in controlling all of Ukraine. All they ever wanted was no NATO membership and an end to the civil war.
My impression was that Russia had a real problem with reactionaries
To be precise
Russia is extremly Reactionary & yes Russia has real Problems with specific "White supremacy Nazis ,
you have to see it with view on Russias Demographic composition reactionaries and “Bloodline Ethnic Nationalist” are therefore an inherent danger to the State , it cracks down on them … they dont wanna catch the Leprosy that is Ethnic Nationalism , you can look at Ukraine for a Demosntation on how you loose all your Minority Territories if you deciede that those living there are Subhuman and not deserving of Rights …
Ethnic fascism is an inherent Realpolitical danger to the Russian state in a Way in which it just isnt in the more “Nationstaty” European States… thats why Russia has a Real Problem with “White Supremacy” , no problems with hunting down LGBTQ+ and this “ethnicity neutral” nazi shit…
( and thats also why the West curts Navalny and other russian nazis … they know as well that white supremacy is a danger to to Russian statehood… why not amplify, you know they always post their “russia decolonized” maps …
Can you break down the reasoning for me? I just read the paragraph and all I can pull from it is they think Russia is fascist and that’s why they need to help their own fascists fight back, plus an acknowledgement that if they win they will be fighting Ukrainian fascists afterwards. Doesn’t seem like a very persuasive reason to help the fascists in the first place, particularly when Russia itself is extremely harsh on real fascists while Ukraine has never even attempted to do so and even today glorifies their fascist history.
edit: also I think it’s always important to remember that this war’s basic outcome has been clear from day one - Ukraine does not have the ability to prevent Russia from holding any territory they want. Fighting that inevitability doesn’t seem very good or humanitarian.
…They are? My impression was that Russia had a real problem with reactionaries. In any case, the core idea of the paragraph is that Russia is at least for now harder to resist in. That’s what I found persuasive, but I’m also realizing how ignorant I actually am about what leftist resistance in Russia is like, beyond what decades of yet-to-be-unlearned indoctrination have insisted it’s like.
So basically just, “give up already”? That doesn’t sound very… uhh… some sort of… relevant word.
[crickets]
Alright, just imagine whichever argument feels like something an ignoramus would put there. I’m not going to pretend to know anything about anything.
There really are only two major outcomes here: either NATO/Ukraine wins, which means fascism wins, or NATO/Ukraine loses (or a Russia win if you want to call that), which means the spread of fascism stops in Russia (temporarily).
Now, let’s examine what are the major features of a fascist state:
Every single fascist state in history has exhibited all the above features, whether it was in Mussolini’s Italy in the 1920s, Hitler’s Germany in the 1930s, Sukarno’s Indonesia in the 1960s, or Pinochet’s Chile in the 1970s.
Not to mention, Ukraine since 2013 has fit perfectly into the description with their constant “de-communization” effort, banning left wing parties, burning and killing labor activists, as well as the mass privatization of state resources to foreign capital, if the Nazi symbolism was not the first alarm to be raised.
In other words, fascism is the most brutal form of labor suppression that developed out of liberalism, after seeing the outcome of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. Churchill literally admitted that Mussolini’s fascism was necessary to crush Leninism in his speech in 1927.
Now, I’d argue that Russia of the 1990s under Yeltsin was very close to fascism (neo-Nazi gangs literally roamed the streets as the country fell to neoliberalism). Putin put a stop gap to the mass privatization (with the state regaining control of key industries over the years), but there is still massive corruption and Russia remains a very reactionary state in response to the looting by foreign capitalists while having no means of resisting against them.
So, back to the two major outcomes:
If NATO/Ukraine wins, then the Russian state will be destabilized and allowing Western imperialists to repeat what they had done to the post-Soviet Russia in the 1990s - shock therapy and the installing of pro-Western fascist puppet instituting similar treatment to what they have done in Ukraine. I guarantee you that left wing parties will be completely obliterated just as they are in Ukraine today. There will be no left wing and labor activism left in Russia (the Communist Party is still the second largest political party today in Russia, just FYI).
On the other hand, if NATO/Ukraine loses, then the spread of fascism will be temporarily halted. However, more importantly, the sanctions are now forcing Russia towards industrializing itself in order to become self-sufficient. This is where there is a chance for labor to fight back.
You see, Russia had been happy to be a neoliberal resource colony to the West by supplying minerals and raw materials, which did not require high level of industrialization and therefore there is less leverage for labor. However, NATO encroachment on Russia and especially the sanctions on Russia are now forcing Russia to industrialize, which means the power of labor can only grow from here, which will lead to growing labor activism demanding for their rights from a state that in turn requires their effort to “defeat the collective West”.
This was what happened in WWI - when a war that national capitalists thought would end by Christmas turned into a dragged out war of attrition, forcing state intervention in the economy which in turn shifted the power dynamics toward labor over the capitalists, as the warring European countries literally had to rely on their labor to win the war. There is a reason why socialist movements exploded during and in the wake of WWI, most prominently in Russia that led to the 1917 Revolution, and then in Italy, which was unfortunately crushed by fascism in 1922.
I feel like my third eye is being forced open like that one scene in A Clockwork Orange (positive intent)
Glad it provoked some thoughts. You don’t have to agree, of course, but over here we like to discuss present day conflicts along with their historical contexts and with material analysis to understand how it will affect socialist effort in the future.
Thank you for your patience, teacher.
I haven’t got the sources at hand but likely another hexbear user will be by soon to drop some sources on modern Russian anti-fascist prosecution in their country. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think being a leftist in Russia is a cakewalk, but they’re not black vanning communists like Ukraine is. They’re also not putting up statues and waxing poetic about explicit antisemitic fascists and nazis like the Banderite government of Ukraine does.
Just to comment on the “don’t fight Russia” point, consider the situation: Russia is invading with one of their goals being de-Nazification, and if you live in or near Ukraine and are a leftist you surely know that Ukraine is basically the beating heart of Europe’s neo-Nazi problem. A sober look at the Ukrainian military and performance as compared to Russia leads to the inevitable conclusion that if Russia really wants to take some land in Ukraine, they can and will. Does it really make sense to fight shoulder to shoulder with the nazis who hated you before, hate you now, and will kill you or push you into a minefield at the first opportunity? That land is going to be owned by foreign capitalists or Russia, there’s nothing you can do to stop that. If you have to pick up weapons, might as well aid Russia and help them remove the Nazi rot from your country - particularly when Russia’s never had any demonstrable interest in controlling all of Ukraine. All they ever wanted was no NATO membership and an end to the civil war.
deleted by creator
To be precise
Russia is extremly Reactionary & yes Russia has real Problems with specific "White supremacy Nazis ,
you have to see it with view on Russias Demographic composition reactionaries and “Bloodline Ethnic Nationalist” are therefore an inherent danger to the State , it cracks down on them … they dont wanna catch the Leprosy that is Ethnic Nationalism , you can look at Ukraine for a Demosntation on how you loose all your Minority Territories if you deciede that those living there are Subhuman and not deserving of Rights … Ethnic fascism is an inherent Realpolitical danger to the Russian state in a Way in which it just isnt in the more “Nationstaty” European States… thats why Russia has a Real Problem with “White Supremacy” , no problems with hunting down LGBTQ+ and this “ethnicity neutral” nazi shit…
( and thats also why the West curts Navalny and other russian nazis … they know as well that white supremacy is a danger to to Russian statehood… why not amplify, you know they always post their “russia decolonized” maps …