- cross-posted to:
- summit@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- summit@lemmy.world
The tesseract Lemmy app, has a little overview from mediabiasfactcheck.com (MBFC). It seems like a clever way to foster a healthy community.
If you click on the ranking you get details.
EDIT: Sorry to stir up an old hornet’s nest.
EDIT2: Commenters have some valid criticisms of MBFC. Even if there are flaws, I would like to celebrate all attempts at elevating the conversations we are having.
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MBFC does the opposite of elevate conversations. It’s quite frankly a poison pill for conversations. People will apply their prejudices and alter their interpretations based on the ‘bias check’, typically before or instead of any critical thinking
or ant article.of any article.The last time the MBFC bot was going the user pushing it was very clearly aware of this dynamic. They also knew it was lumping everything to website source, despite authors and opinion pieces, for maximum damage.
Imagine thinking CNN is center-left 😂
In the Overton Window that is US politics, it is. But that’s because the damn window has been dragged so far to the right that facts themselves are “Liberal Marxism” now (oxymoronic as that label is).
Edit: And MBFC perpetuates that rightward movement. I prefer Ad Fontes, although it does also label CNN as center-left.
Is this the same media bias checking bot that thinks a Murdoch media owned news site was left leaning?
As a left-leaning Canadian, this seems crazy to me. There’s not even a place for me on this chart.
It’s crazy how normalized right-wing extremism is. Well, it does explain the state of things in the US, though.
I also don’t love that is has least biased in the center. Bias is a trait that is on an almost entirely separate axis.
Yeah, as political compasses, in order to have some reasonableness, have left-right and authoritarian-libertarian, this needs another axis for bias. You can be a leftist organization that still reports on reality without bias. Being in favor of the status-quo is it’s own form of bias.
Also the AP
Oh dear god not this argument again
Right, I almost forgot about the rage against the MBFC bot that went on for like MONTHS lmao. Seeing it downvoted to hell was hilarious though lol
Tbh I didn’t even mind what the bot was trying to do. I just remember opening what felt like every post and seeing dozens of lines taken up by the bot. I ended up just blocking it and cross-referencing with ground news myself.
Ground News makes you think American conservatives are centrists.
Can you give the rundown on what happened for us newer people.
Some of the news and politics communities added an automatic comment to new posts that linked to fact checking information, and a big portion of the community lost their minds about it. A lot of people found it biased, obtrusive, or unnecessary, and it generated a lot of conflict between the people who liked it or felt neutral. It went through many iterations based on the feedback before being removed entirely.
The entire saga was fairly disruptive and everyone is glad it’s over.
Oh. Thank you for the concise rundown.
I guess I had missed it the first time
account age 1 year 8 months
LOL, not a chance unless you were straight-up absent that whole time.
Relative to your impressive comment and post count, it appears I was.
Impressive post count??
Ok well nothing is as impressive as yours. Averaging 15 posts a day for the last 19 months is a full time job.
Ew.
“Ew” what? The fighting over MBFC was a big deal for a long time. If he was here, it’s hard to believe he wouldn’t have noticed it.
I blocked a lot of news communities, because it was just consuming my feed, so I also missed when this happened.
Not everyone sees everything. It feels like gate keeping to assume everyone has to have seen everything based on their join date.
MBFC is bad. It supports the American overton window, which is, you know, now openly fascist.
From the test that was done with the bot that was not a good source. 1) American focus 2) too much room for debate on the ranking Here some discussion on it https://lemmy.world/post/18073070
I blocked the bot as soon as I learned how. The ratings are a joke - mostly because of its American bias.
I suppose we’ve got to keep at it until we’re at a point where doing something is better than doing nothing. Where, of course, doing nothing is somewhat of an acknowledgement of the fact it’s hard to do something right enough to be able to apply it to all posts and all articles and all that.
An analogy comes to mind: it’s like the difference between telling hikers they’re at their own risk and advising them to bring water, good shoes, and a fully charged battery, and they’ll be fine. If you can’t account for everything, there are arguments to be made with trying to shift responsibility back to people with either more general or more specific warnings.
My impression is that people will be eager to tell in the comments that a news source is bad or biased, or that the specific article is misinformation.
At the end of the day, if you just trust some rank value that someone tossed in, w.o. knowing who is behind it exactly and how they reached that conclusion, it can be an easy source for disinformation.
Also some news outlets are providing reliable coverage on some issues, while being biased on others. Often they just repeat texts from Reuters, AP or other agencies. So any single value rating can warn you that the same message is “biased” in one case and in another case it cheers it on as “reliable”.
In other words: You can keep jumping out of the window in different ways, trying to find a way for humans to fly w.o. mechanical help, or you can just accept taking the stairs.
I agree that this is necessary, but we need to be mindful with the implementation. A decentralized approach might be more effective than relying on a centralized list. As you mentioned, a warning that encourages people to think critically and not take everything at face value is likely the best solution for now.
I don’t see any comments when I click that link
Try this other post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/24920368
that worked thanks
Do you have filter? Block community? Like politics 😝
ha, that’s possible.
is there an open source, decentralized alterntative to MBFC ?
I can’t find one.
https://alternativeto.net/software/media-bias-fact-check/?license=opensource
These comments have made me very curious if that exists or how that might be designed.
No. And there never should be. And here’s why. Bear with me for a moment but consider this. Part of the problem with this sort of thing is that people want their hands held. They want to be told what to think. Not to think critically for themselves. No matter how well intentioned. Such systems will always be sought to be abused. To manipulate people and their opinions. And at best they will always be subject to bias and blindness. The truly keep them from ever being universally useful.
Basic training and education in critical thinking skills will be far more to help people. Than relying on an app no matter how well intentioned to tell them how to think about something.
Held hands? No. Not everyone has the time, energy or training to evaluate a site’s trust comprehensively. I want to see what other people think in case they spot what I missed. I also want to see if people are even taking about the site and why.
I mean, can you imagine? There are so many sites out there I can’t spend three hours fact-checking one for the sake of replying to an argument. And then all that work going to waste for the benefit of nobody else.
Not to mention all the domain-specific knowledge you’d need to properly evaluate claims. All the critical thinking skills in the world are worthless if you don’t have contextual knowledge of whatever subject is in the news. It’s just not realistic for everyone to be a policy wonk.
These are all valid points but they don’t preclude the existence of an open-source alternative to MBFC, which is what the commenter you replied to was asking.
I never implied that it did. Go ahead and make one. It will always do as much or more damage than it will ever do good. That’s the point. There’s bias in everything. Trusting someone else’s bias to accurately convey the bias of something else, isn’t making you more informed or a better consumer of media. Not in any meaningful way. Not in the way basic critical thinking skills can. It’s just a game of bias telephone. And if you know how the game telephone goes. It should give you an indication to its efficacy.
It’s not hard. There are some basic steps anyone can take to get started. Do not tolerate those who are intolerant of who someone is. Whether it’s ethnicity or sexuality. If accusations are being made against groups. Especially ones that you have very little experience or contact with. Put yourself in that situation. Think about how you would go about things. Because that’s more than likely how they would as well. And for everything else, especially things that are either hard science or factually based. Simply differ to the people who make it their life to study and understand those things. But never give their opinions outside of that field any weight.
Just those few basic things can illuminate a lot of bias and malintent. Leave you far more guarded and protected against misinformation and bias in the future. Which along with basic intellectual curiosity. Something most people have largely never valued. Will serve you far better than any app. Because the Insidious part about misinformation. Is that there’s often some amount of Truth to it. Whether it’s wrong because of malice or because of bias. Critical thinking and intellectual curiosity will always better serve you.
There is too much information to process for any one person to just use their critical thinking skills to fact check a news organization as large as CNN, much less every major news organization. No, it’s not enough to teach critical thinking skills and hope every person is able to discern bias in the media they consume, because you’re asking for extremely domain-specific skills and legwork that a single consumer just isn’t capable of. Consumer watchdog organizations are a necessary part of protecting us against unreliable news agencies.
Not really. No more than in the past. The difference is the 24/7 firehose of propaganda and indoctrination. The solution is to step away from the firehouse. Focus on the things that actually impact you. Or that you can influence. If someone is telling you to be afraid of people that you don’t know, have never met, or ever had contact with. Ignore them and tune them out. It’s legitimately that simple.
Wow, I decided I would give MBFC a shot. You are greeted with an ad-infested experience with a giant start bar reminiscent of a malware site. After building up enough courage to click it I discovered it not only wanted my email but also my credit card.
After having to fight to see the article I wanted rated I just don’t have the fortitude to the fight this horrible experience to probably be told that the following article is left center or left leaning bias.
While I will admit this was a not Fox News praising the Trump Admin, it has an extremely neutral tone and does nothing to pushback against the obviously clownish message that the Trump team provides.
For this reason it, is to me at least, right leaning. I guess I will never know what MBFC would rate it.
reminiscent of a malware site
Well, that’s because it is malware.
it, is to me at least, right leaning
It’s not right leaning.
It’s disinformation malware whose sole purpose is to move the Overton window as far right as possible.
It labels anything short of outright fascism as far left.
deleted by creator
It has malicious intent, therefore it’s malware. 🤷♂️
deleted by creator
Any software intended to cause harm is malware. MBFC is software intended to cause harm. MBFC is malware.
deleted by creator
Firefox and ublock are your friend.
This site doesn’t rate articles. It rates news sources. So you just have to look up what they rated the post as.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
These ratings appear to b based on US sensibilities and not the rest of the world. So everything skews more to the left than it really is.
It probably rates the NSDAP as leftist since it has socialist in its name.
Probably considering it considers radio free Asia and voice of America news good sources.
This site doesn’t rate articles. It rates news sources.
That is an extremely important distinction! Thanks!
Edit: that wasn’t sarcasm. I honestly think it’s a valuable thing to know and remember.
Whatever the views are about MBFC, Tesseract integrated it better than LW’s bot. If you don’t like MBFC, it’s just an option in your user settings to turn it off for Tesseract, whereas the bot caused a bunch of problems that weren’t even related to concerns about accuracy and bias. Drive-by bots can be annoying, because it leads people to believe there’s legit content where there isn’t, and not every client respected LW’s bot use of spoiler Markdown, so they ended up with a massive comment from it that dominated the screen.
That seems like important nuance for sure.
If you want to potentially sidestep some of people’s frustrations you might consider just using the credibility rating and focusing on whether a group provides factual reporting, rather than left or right of center
You can also create a user experience that more carefully manages expectations of the feature by having it be opt in, but presenting the option to users when it becomes available. That gives you the opportunity to give a short blurb acknowledging its imperfections and also highlighting its potential value
As someone fairly to the left wing myself, the fact that lemmy is so left wing is both a blessing and a curse. I don’t see Nazis around, but being in an echo chamber isn’t great for your ability to engage with perspectives other than your own, and makes you succeptible to narratives that reinforce your existing views regardless of whether they’re accurate
I’d love this feature, in spite of its flaws, but it does definitely have them. Its based on the US overton window, which will frustrate folks from other parts of the world who may already feel lemmy sometimes forgets the world beyond the US exists. And the US overton window is changing as a product of the trump administration which may warp mbfc results, which could honestly be really dangerous.
Focussing on the factuality and credibility might help you sidestep those problems and make a feature people would find less frustrating, potentially even to the point that you could make it opt out.
Generally I appreciate efforts to build healthier, less echo chambery discourse, thanks for the work you’re doing ❤️
Yeah I had a similar thought to your first paragraph. I mostly use MBFC for the “factual reporting” rating, because it seems easier to be objective about.
Just to clarify, I don’t develop any fediverse software, I wouldn’t want to take any credit from those amazing people.
i think photon does this too
I removed it because I don’t want my app to necessarily depend or be associated with any specific centralized external source, like MBFC. By adding it to my app, I’m implicitly supporting its use, which wasn’t necessarily my goal.
That’s really cool. Looks great too.
EDIT2: Commenters have some valid criticisms of MBFC.
Here’s another in my “making friends” series of posts.
Commenters DO NOT have valid criticisms of MBFC. They are universally wrong, have no idea how MBFC works, and are too lazy to look it up. The misinfo ghouls among them are happy to repeat lies over and over until people start to accept them.
Some of these people can be pretty convincing but I urge you to actually fact check their arguments. Most of these people are just parroting bullshit they saw someone else say. The “best” of these are basically artisanal, hand-crafted AI hallucinations: high-confidence, syntactically-correct nonsense. Don’t put that glue on your pizza. If someone posts an MBFC link as evidence, click it and read it. Nearly every single time, the link they posted contradicts them and they just haven’t read it.
And ask yourself why no one ever posts peer-reviewed research backing up their claims. It’s a simple reason: it doesn’t exist. Every single piece of academic research on MBFC says they’re wrong. The MBFC conspiracy theorists can’t just ignore that body of research because it’s inconvenient – they need a compelling reason why all research to date is wrong. For their claims to be true, it would require a massive conspiracy between academics, journalists, and media bias organizations because they are all in consensus about what makes good and bad news organizations. It’s loopy, tinfoil hat bullshit.
Yeah, I’ve also looked into MBFC and found it was more grounded than what Lemmings were saying.
I always found it suspicious why people here would rather choose no fact checking than some. Is it the old “don’t let perfection ruin a good plan” again or other motives? Hmm.
I generally think their overton window skews right and every once in a while I’ve seen some huge fumbles, but overall they’re more pro establishment than anything else. The only thing I’ve ever seen that could even be seen as pushing misinformation is their bellingcat rating, where they gave them “mostly factual” because they lost a lawsuit IN RUSSIA about how they were making “libelous claims” about the MH17 shootdown and who was responsible because their quite rigorous research showed that the Russian government was lying. inb4 some .ml tankie comes to go "uhm actually bellingcat is cia
I think that very few of these arguments are being made in good faith. For some people, any bias monitor is a barrier to sharing propaganda as news. Others just don’t understand how to use the site properly. Or use it in a really stupid way anyway. Like this:
- Look at the ratings.
- If something strikes you as odd, run around screaming like your hair’s on fire.
Instead of:
- Look at the ratings.
- If something strikes you as odd, read the part of the report that explains the rating.
- Decide how important those things are to you and whether it’s a deal-breaker.
Others are like, ‘it’s telling me what to think, man!’ who don’t seem to understand that those pages contain a wealth of information that you can include in your decision-making (or not). They’ve convinced themselves that it’s presented as the one and only source of absolute truth, which is really just something they made up to be angry about. No one but them is making that claim.
There also isn’t another free source that has that info in one place. There’s no better place to quickly find news org ownership info, the country they’re operating in (with links to info about press freedom in that country), and their history of factual reporting. But those people don’t care – they’re just viscerally reacting to the ratings, not reading the reports.
You’re right, defending Nazi sites doesn’t make you friends, you’re wrong that there’s any peer review of the site though, either way.
I’m awarding you three demerits for a reply that doesn’t make sense. Govern yourself accordingly.
Mbfc is funded and run by Nazis. You’re defending a Nazi site. I personally wouldn’t call you a Nazi over doing so in ignorance, but others might.
Can you site your sources?
As the person asking people to fact check the claims of weird conspiracy theorists, I’m gonna have to ask for your sources on that one.
Edit: For anyone wondering, MBFC is transparent about their funding sources.
Edit2: an MBFC conspiracy theorist just making shit up??? I’m shocked…
you likely won’t find an unbiased opinion regarding that here. Members tend not do their own research and only live to complain about the existence of it.
I share the same opinion as yours, I would rather have a sometimes inaccurate listing than no listing at all. The complaints people have about it are what I enjoy using it for, it lets me know to look for certain things on the article before I enter so I know if I should take it with a grain of salt or not.
Members tend not do their own research and only live to complain about the existence of it.
But then
lets me know to look for certain things on the article before I enter so I know if I should take it with a grain of salt or not.
You are talking about yourself in the first sentence.
that could be true, if I didn’t double check the sources. If that is how you would be doing it then sure, but I use it as a guideline not a rule, and check for facts after.
There’s nothing wrong with using something as a blueprint/template. Seeing a strong lean in credibility or positioning tells me that I should be more serious on fact checking on it as there will be bias.
