I assume years of collectively crying about it online has made something as simple and natural like dating seem like this unachievable task.
Not sure if it’s just me, but I feel like young people are less capable than ever to socialise. I thought I was a social pariah, but I don’t have shit on some people out there.
I think a big part of it is online dating is just how it’s done these days.
But yes, we’ve done a great job of over-complicating something as simple as human interaction.
I think so too. Online dating is just too convenient. It’s easier to arrange a date while playing video games than going into a club or other places you don’t like to begin with. I won’t lament those places dying out. Fuck them, never felt comfortable there.
But online dating should have made things easier not worse. Then again those sites aren’t free of blame too.
The problem with online dating sites is that they have the wrong incentive. They want to make money, not bring people together into lasting relationships.
In stark contrast to pubs and nightclubs
Pubs make just as much money if you’re in a relationship or not. The motivation is to sell you alcohol they don’t care about your relationship status.
Fair point.
Also, I agree the profit incentive is a huge problem.
The difference is that pubs and nightclubs are not exclusively for people who are looking to meet other people. People go there with friends, to have a good time. Not so much with online dating sites.
I’ve never understood the appeal of meeting people at bars. If you want to build a relationship with someone, why not do it with someone you already know? Ask out a coworker or classmate or something. Why approach random people in bars purely based on their appearance?
Because there is a very real sentiment called “Don’t shit where you eat.” I learned it the hard way in two different workplaces. In the first one, we broke up and it ruined the work environment. In the second, the ‘no’ was expanded to HR complaints and lawsuits, again ruining the work environment. Knowing someone has (or had) romantic interest in you can be a pain, and it can definitely blow up a working relationship.
Because it’s a social environment. You don’t go purely on appearance usually, you see someone interesting, start chatting, maybe you flirt a bit and if the vibes are right you move forward. If anything it’s far less appearance focused than the apps where it’s a picture and a bio and not interaction.
As for why not coworkers and classmates and such, it’s fine if flirtation is happening. But to a certain degree it’s shitting where you eat. People have professional and to a lesser degree academic personas that are less who they really are than their social personas.
Expanding your pool of potential mates increases the chance of finding a mate.
And then there are people like me, who don’t have the biggest friend group and it’s predominantly male. And my workplace is also highly male dominated. So I don’t have any women that I know that I could ask out.
pubs and nightclubs have limited tools for deciding who can interact with who, in comparison. No idea if that makes them work any better for matchmaking though.
I’m actually surprised no one has made an open source solution. Probably because of all of the complexity of moderating a system like that.
It would be a sausage fest
There’s one, Alovoa.
I was a complete social reject in middle and high school so I don’t even know how to people but I just assumed that was just me and my miserable circumstances apparently a lot of people have the same problem?
Same, I struggle with people. I think it’s just that our kind of people are more active online.
There’s no third places where you can just loiter.
From what I’ve seen/heard, it’s not specifically the ‘crying.’ It’s a general effect from online life. Online activities are much, much easier than in person. Want to feel a connection to someone? Here’s vloggers, talking straight at you in painfully earnest tones about everything in their life. Want someone to entertain you? Here’s half a dozen companies fighting to be the one you turn to. Hungry? Forget cooking. Here’s delivery options from everywhere. Horny? Porn! It’s all a click away and you don’t even need to put on pants. If getting a need met enough to get you to tomorrow takes no effort, many people aren’t going to put in the work to get, not even a guarantee, but only a chance at something better.
I keep saying this cause it’s a take a lot of people gloss over. I haven’t dated in a while because I’m too broke to add anything else to my budget, dive bars included. Dating takes time and money, and if I get more of either, I’m using it to better my situation before thinking about dating.
In a time where real wealth is dwindling for most young men, I can imagine I’m not alone on this.
Going through the same problem, I was in uni during COVID, when it hit many things in my life changed or left so I shut down and unfortunately couldn’t complete my degree in the end. Now I’m just job hunting and rebuilding and while I do feel pretty lonely at times, I realise I can’t even consider talking to a girl romantically until I can rebuild myself (my own choice). Luckily I have this close female friend who i can talk to makes me feel a little less alone
Life advice from an old’ish dude: find a girl when you are broke. She will always love you, not the money. She will also love you in hardship and she won’t care if you go for a walk or watch Netflix because it’s cheaper. :)
Men don’t want to be branded ‘creepy’ and women have constantly stated they want to be left alone. Men listened.
Every time I see an article like this I think who fucking cares? Like what’s going on with men? Its a generational and cultural thing its not men’s fault. Dating sucks, people get rejected in ultra harsh ways, sometimes being filmed and then posted on social media for trying to ask someone out. If I was in the age range to be dating I wouldn’t bother.
It’s a problem to have so many single, disaffected men out there
Might be a good time to downplay the importance of a relationship for a happy life then instead of trying to push the message that your life sucks if you don’t have one.
Maybe being alone works for some people, but the desire for intimate relationships is a biological drive in human beings
My point was that making people feel worse about their situation likely won’t improve the outcome. People either would be happy without a partner or they won’t and those who won’t don’t need an external push to try to find a partner and both groups might feel worse if they are publicly branded a failure for not having a partner.
Yup and it’s a problem that only becomes worse over time
The first rule of…
Dude, you’re not supposed to talk about Fight Club.
Talk about what now?
how do you know they are disaffected. Maybe they are single and just fine with it.
We all know that isn’t true
“Influence” numbers of Andrew Tate & Musk says otherwise. I’m also assuming a large following of those two are unhappy single men.
Women might care?
Then perhaps we should expect changes/shifts in women’s behavior to bridge the gap?
I don’t think that cultural evolution is happening - look at Bumble, which had its premise/differentiation with women making the “first move.” They eventually had to nix the feature, because…women didn’t want to make the first move; they wanted to be pursued. Meanwhile, apps in general are just a minefield of emotional rejection, while Corporate ownership drags men through the muck as long as possible to get those $$$. So most men simply stop using apps and simply wait for some kind of IRL meet-cute. And that sparingly happens in a society that has very, very few places for non-commercial social overlap.
Commercial dating apps are a failed idea. We need something better
4chan funded their own dating app. It was alright.
Like approaching women?
well then they should step up and start asking people out instead of waiting for guys to do it.
people get rejected in ultra harsh ways, sometimes being filmed and then posted on social media for trying to ask someone out.
Are you sure this isn’t exaggerating it a little? This may be anecdotal but I have never dealt with any such harsh rejection within my social circles (neither have my associates). What I’m trying to get at is that there may be a vocal minority that gets a lot of online attention.
Then again if thousands upon thousands of people see such a post (like on say r/Tinder) and take it as a common phenomenon it would still have the same effect.
Really the fear of it happening is enough. All you have to do is have it happen once, or know someone that it happened to, or see a video of it for that to scare you off of even trying.
That sounds like an irrational fear if you ask me. Like with fear of flying.
Honestly, I get it’s a green text, but this is pretty easily explained. First off: dating is fucking expensive, and unfortunately standard gender roles means the dude foots the bill most of the time. Yes times are changing, but that’s still pretty standard. Pair that with the fact that dudes usually have to make the first move (again, old gender standards) and the fact that social media adds another layer of risk of being ridiculed or making someone viral because they were ‘crimge’ or ‘gave the girl the ick’ and it’s a pretty stacked deck. Hell, point one is such a strong weigh in that it’s enough to explain all of it. People are more broke than ever, and if dating by default involves going out, well guess that date isn’t going to happen.
Agreed. Cost of living and wealth inequality are getting so bad it’s breaking society. We see it everywhere and it’s weird to prioritize non economic explanations.
Although hetero dating is just total bs, speaking as a queer gal. All that old cruft is rotten and it’s gotta go
Yet again Capitalism is the issue
Is there any problem that wouldn’t be fixed with wealth redistribution?
The inequitable amount of influence the 1% gets from owning the means of production. Given time this will erode whatever wealth distribution scheme you have in place.
See the minimum wage for an example.
Nah if the total wealth of everyone is forced to be equal then their power is equal.
Assets are wealth.
The CEO or board wouldn’t own anything more of the workplace than their janitors do.
I recently ended a 6 year relationship. I’m not going to settle down with anyone again unless they have their own stuff going on like a career and goals. I think a lot of women expect men to manage all the finances, set goals, plan vacations and provide stability but they don’t want to do the traditional gender role stuff like cooking and cleaning or making a home. So what’s the point? Why make someone else’s life easier if they don’t do the same for you? had a son young(I was 19 when I had him) and he’s 11 now, so it’s not like I’m dreaming of starting a family. Most women bring nothing to the table. And if you’re lucky enough like me to have a good income, house, car, etc… you realize a lot of things are easier living alone.
Women want the princess treatment but don’t know how to act like a princess. Beyond that, sex isn’t all it’s hyped up to be. I know I sound like a redpill incel but dating shouldn’t be a priority for anyone. What’s the rush? Don’t fall for the first thing you see, make sure they’re worth it first.
If you decide to date again, you should consider dating liberal women. The only women I have known who are like you describe are conservative(and I have met one or two who expect the princess treatment and then don’t deliver on the prince treatment!). I know conservative men who expect traditional roles, and I know conservative men who expect to split the bills and say they’ll split the housework but then the woman ends up doing all the housework anyway. The women in that situation end up feeling like you: if I’m doing the housework AND working, this is easier on my own!
In my liberal circles things seem to be a bit more evenly split, and both partners are often more independent.
It seems like you’re happy on your own though, so you’re doing the right thing by removing yourself from the dating pool! Maybe you’ll find someone independent who will be a good match naturally, but I can’t imagine a woman would want to work and split the housework with someone who has your attitude (“most women are bad and not worth having around”) so you might need to change that if you do decide to get back into dating. I can’t connect on what you mean on sex not being the best thing in the world and the literal purpose of life, but I do know my husband felt like you on that front before he met me. He thought people were just exaggerating on how good it is. Maybe, like him, you just haven’t met the right match there either? It’s not like I’m even that good in bed, if anything I’m a bit of a selfish lover. It’s just that we’re a good fit together. Good luck, man. I hope you find the right fit and realize men and women are equally selfish and equally selfless.
Controversial opinion, but I believe anesthesia is even better than sex. If you’re ever been put under for surgery, you know what I’m talking about.
And they say that DMT can top even that. Only problem is that you have to take a trip outside the US to get it.
Oh my God! Someone else that enjoys being put under! I wouldn’t say it is quite pleasurable, but definitely a fun experience. It’s like time travel. You remember them telling you to count down from ten, you get to 7-6 and then BAM, you are waking up after the operation is done. I’ve had 3 surgeries and they have all been pretty fun experiences, but to be fair, I’ve never had complications and non of them were life threatening.
Kanye would agree
I get there’s a bit of biterness here, but speaking as an older millennial this was my experience as well. Feminism created a weird gap of women becoming strong and independent, but with some meant ‘im not going to do traditional fem, but expect you to do traditional man’ with no compromise. I ended up finding a wonderful woman and we both split everything, but it took me 20 years.
Yeah, probably haven’t met the right one and all that. For now, no company is better than bad company
What’s the rush?
I would guess the rush is that you would have someone to split your crippling living expenses with.
That’s not a good reason to share a bed with someone
Capitalism is not a good stable equitable way to structure our lives… yet it persists.
Re: “sex isn’t all it’s hyped up to be.” Sex with someone you love is the best thing.
Good sex is honestly a toss up, I’ve had great sex in horrible relationships and bad sex in great relationships. I understand being in love with someone enhances it but love is a feeling which is impossible to sustain permanently
I’ve not found loving someone to help with the quality of the sex all that much. Maybe they just didn’t love me back or something. The crazy one was always great and was the only one who wanted it as often as I did but the rest of that relationship was a mess.
The crazy one was always great and was the only one who wanted it as often as I did but the rest of that relationship was a mess.
I’ve disagree with most of the posts in this thread. But I gotta say, this stereotype is true in my experience. I have dated a lot of crazy women, and mostly because even the everything else with them is a crazy fucked up mess, the sex is always amazing. The best sex I’ve ever had was with the crazy girls who were overly dramatic, and just always made shitty choices (like sleeping with me! haha)
I say this as someone who is in a kinda serious relationship now (she wants to get married, I’m not quite there yet). Love her lots, sex is great, but man, nothing matches the absolute insanity filthy sex that I had with the crazy girls. It’s something about that just not giving a fuck what they think or lack of respect, or something… But no lie, I kinda don’t wanna get married because don’t wanna give that all up just yet.
Have you actually tried taking unrepentant time off, where you have no work or social obligations, and grabbing unhealthy snacks and drinks, curling up with a good game, and zoning out of reality for hours or days at a time?
Sex is nice and all, and we’re hard wired to like it more than most activities, but it does not hold a single candle to unrepentant free time when you’re not used to said free time.
Have you actually tried taking unrepentant time off, where you have no work or social obligations, and grabbing unhealthy snacks and drinks, curling up with a good game, and zoning out of reality for hours or days at a time?
Cosplaying as a free human? Yeah I would love to pretend for a little while and forget the shit planet I was forced to exist on.
All that but getting a handie.
What a crazy way to say you’ve never had sex.
Sex with someone you love is the best thing.
It is! But sex with someone ya don’t love is pretty awesome too!
I went out on a first date with this woman recently and we just split the bill 50/50. It was a refreshing change of scenery. I think that should be standard so that nobody has any expectations on either side. As time goes on you can figure out how to allocate cash flow but first dates should never be 100% on one gender, unless one of them are rich (in my opinion at least.)
First off: dating is fucking expensive, and unfortunately standard gender roles means the dude foots the bill most of the time.
Not an excuse for most Lemmy users. Most American Lemmy users make far more than the average American. I have seen Lemmy users legit bitch that they only make $80K a year. That’s more than I ever made a year in my entire working life. And I never had a problem dating.
It’s a personality issue, not a money issue.
I’m doing my part in dragging down the average, but tech salaries are quite good
Yeah, I definitely wish I would have went that route when I was younger. I’m retired now, so I can’t complain, but I could have a lot more cool shit if I would have made more money! lol
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45% of men 18 to 25 have never asked out a woman in person
I can’t speak for the whole 45% but some of us have heard stories from women about how that other 55% can behave. I think I’d rather wait for a lady to (never) ask me out then put someone in the position of thinking “Oh, is he gonna take it bad if I say no?”
It’s a complicated issue with a lot of layers. Like a depressing onion.
Men were told to stop approaching women for any reason in any situation. So we did.
Dating apps and websites have overinflated women’s egos and absolutely obliterated most mens egos. The average looking guy with a job and some normal hobbies is going to get very few matches where as most women get hundreds a day regardless of their level of employment or having hobbies. This leads to women believing they can find the millionaire bachelor if they just hold out for longer when in reality they are not the women that the millionaire bachelor is going to pick.
Most women still expect men to be chivalrous and pay on the first date, but they have no actual intention of pursuing a relationship with that guy. Unfortunately some women have learned they can get a free meal and entertainment for an evening at no cost if they just say yes to dates they have no interest in. Most guys have been burned by that as some point.
A lot of women are still playing games. Saying no because they want the man to “chase” them or “fight” for them. Most guys have stopped entertaining that behavior whatsoever but I still see so many women doing it. As men we can’t tell if that’s what you want or if you actually mean it when you say no so the majority of us will immediately stop pursuing you if you decline us. I’m 33 and women are STILL doing this. I thought it would taper off as I got farther from high school aged girls but from my experience it has not gone down in any significant way.
There are a million other reasons and nuanced details but I am tired of typing.
Myself and most men I know around my age who all did very well in the dating scene when we were younger have just completely given up on dating now. We have zero interest in putting in the time, energy and money into something that yeilds nothing in return these days.
Like most things I think this will reach a breaking point and things will shift but I’m not sure when that will be or what will push things over the edge.
My aunt admitted she did the free meal thing back in the 70s. It’s not new. This whole thing is bs. People just have whiny echo chambers now.
reading this thread I’m glad I’m a removed in a relationship. my spouse is the best. i got so fucking lucky.
there’s a massive epidemic of loneliness out there. the loss of the free/cheap third spaces, lockdowns, and social media have made a fucking shitstorm. I’m scared for the generations below me just starting to enter the workforce. so many kids just unable to function properly.
i can’t solve it. but I’ve been putting my devices down more and (trying) to get out more. get more sunlight and fresh air, even if i just sit outside and watch the ducks. it’s hard out there. give yourself a break, okay? eat a snack and take a walk.
18-25 in 2025 means 13-20 when COVID happened.
We’re going to see the long term effects of people in that micro generation losing much of what the high school social scene represented, that low stakes junior league of forming new relationships, where meeting is easy, with lots of natural opportunities for free interaction, and making new connections is normal. Learning to flirt in that environment is a stepping stone towards being able to navigate the adult world, where people don’t have your schedule planned out for you, and you won’t naturally see the same people 100+ days out of the year, and have 50+ chances to shoot your shot when you’re ready.
And yes, sure, the loss of third places and changing social dynamics and gender roles and the economy play a role, too, for pretty much everyone under 40. But it’s worth pointing out that this specific age cohort has special challenges on top of the issues that everyone else is living, too.
Social changes have caused chaos. A lot of the “traditional” dating methods existed to give structure to finding a partner. Unfortunately, those structures got trashed by the general update to gender roles. While these changes are great in many ways, it left young people in limbo. It was eventually replaced with online dating, for many. Unfortunately, that, in turn has been trashed by corporate takeover.
You’ve also got the outlier problem. The problematic men and women make up a small proportion of the population, but do a disproportionate amount of dating. A lot of the complaints are aimed at the problematic groups. Unfortunately, they don’t care. It’s mostly the non-problematic people who get the wrong message.
I think the effect of other societal changes not immediately associated with relationships might be underestimated here too, such as the commercialization of any and all free time activities where one might casually meet people of the preferred gender on a regular basis combined with the limited disposable income. Or (in the US at least) the elimination of sidewalks and other public places where one might encounter people from your own neighborhood outside of a car. More customized media consumption leading to fewer guaranteed shared topics to discuss compared to the time when generally everyone watched the same things on TV and read the same news at a similar time. I could probably come up with other examples but the point is that a lot of things changed that make just meeting people to consider to ask out much more difficult than it used to be a few decades ago.
I fully agree. A lot of entertainment options have moved from self organising to a fire hose model. It used to be you just gave youngsters a place to go, and let them work out what to do with it. Now it’s hyper-commercialised. Everyone sits/stands there and absorbs entertainment from a central source.
It’s also not just young adults and teenagers. Pre teens and early teens have nowhere to really interact organically. Without that solid foundation of peer socialising, they are trying to build on soft sand.
It doesn’t help that society is actively hostile to groups of kids and teens. Malls increasingly ban unaccompanied minors, “get off my lawn” attitudes lead to closing down of public parks and rec type facilities, violent paramilitary police are a threat to their safety, etc.
I agree that throwing young people together in the same place doesn’t automatically just work and there needs to.be some sort of support system for people who fall through the cracks
Change is not chaos. Tone it down. It’s just an adjustment to changing status quo.
For me personally, it’s a combination of factors. A non zero number of my exes lost interest after a while and it damaged my ego pretty badly. Dating Apps are a string of getting ghosted with the occasional date that leads to me paying for drinks and dinner, only to get ghosted. I’ve always been a shy person and I can only handle so much failure before I don’t want to play anymore. I missed out on the high school and college dating scenes and it shows. There is one common denominator in all of my dating failures and it’s me.
Women don’t want to be approached in public.
Men learn this quickly.
Also that speed dating stat is totally a lie, every dating event is a sausage fest.
I’m married to a tinder girl now so say what you want about that but for me, it was fear of further social ostracization. I always struggled to fit in, in grade school because I was asian in a sea of white kids. Some kids were literally afraid to touch the “chinese boy” (i was korean but try telling that to rabid white elementary and middle school kids looking for any reason to other anyone). I became a huge people pleaser and tried not to stick out for any reason. I had also seen how the “popular” kids treated any of the geeks who tried to shoot their shot and I didn’t want to fuck up any of the social capital I thought I had. It obviously got better in late high school as kids grew up but the damage was done. I had a few girlfriends in high school and college but they mostly came after me or we kind of just found ourselves getting close so there wasn’t any formal “asking out” type of stuff. Either way I probably blew a lot of romantic opportunities but it is what it is.
I got a boy due in June so hopefully I can instill the confidence in him that I didn’t have.
tinder girl
You mean you met her on tinder. What makes her a tinder girl and not you a tinder girl?
Edit meant boy
Obviously he means she is dry and flammable, thus is great for starting fires.
My wife is also a wooden mannequin.
Ah okay, he must be in the green text
His cock
Thanks for clearing that up
Less that and more he likes his masculinity
Not exactly a disqualifying characteristic for a woman, all things considered
sure. My cock
We are commonly referred to as tinder folk
Unless the person you respond to is trans the fact that they describe themselves as being referred to as a “chinese boy” would suggest that they are likely not a girl.
Thanks! That’s helps!
Is Anon talking out their ass with those stats, or is this actually true?
Theres definitely a truth to it, younger people are drinking less and less every generation, which takes its toll on bars and to some extent clubs too.
Isn’t it also because going out nowadays is expensive as hell especially if you live in a big city. Young people working part time aren’t going to waste one month’s salary on one night out. And just hanging outside in public sharing a beer will make a nosy boomer call the cops on you for loitering. So the younger generations have learned how to have fun at home without booze.
There’s never been a point in my life where going out drinking all night has made financial sense. A meal and a beer at a pub, sure, but bars are expensive. And loud. And cramped.
The kids are on to something.
You just have to live in the right city with sufficiently high rates of alcoholism! In Fargo, ND you could get a tall 200 lb+ man proper sloshed over an evening downtown across 5-8 bars for $50 or less as recently as 2019. Not as cheap as drinking at home, but enough that most folks without kids working full-time could do it every other weekend.
See, but that’s the rub! Who the fuck wants to spend $50 and go to that many bars? I could get a new AAA game for that much that I’ll play for hundreds of hours. Or 10 indie games that I’ll play for longer!
$50 fro 6pm-2am is cheaper per hour than a movie ticket or dinner at a restaurant, and hitting that many bars is easy when they’re all on the same 2-3 block stretch!
Fargo, ND
Well there’s your problem, North Dakota doesn’t exist.
If you heard the horror stories I heard from friends that went there to work the oil fields, this would be a very very good thing.
$50 or less in 2019? I live in a more urban area of the US than this and if you pregame and go with friends, you can get the equivalent of 5 drinks at 3 bars for well under $20. In 2025.
Having fun does not need to make financial sense.
And yet finances are what enable some kinds of fun. $10 dollar indie game you play for a month or one night out for $200. Guess which men are picking.
Hell, $29 and the factory continues to grow for years of entertainment. That’s not even a full meal with drink and tip at most bars.
$200 for 1 night out is crazy. Can’t you just pregame a bit (courtesy of public transit), then go to some bars and get some cheap drinks for $5 or less each?
It does if you’re poor.
Drinking less is probably good. I doubt that automatically leads to less dating.
we need cannabis lounges
Fuck, and I was just reading Homelessness Is A Housing Problem, and they were talking all about stats and to not buy into intuitive narratives, and low and behold, I have bought into this without looking it up. Guess I should get onto that now.
(And by reading the book, I mean I use a GlaDOS voice pack from Hugginface using SherpaTTS. What a vibe.)
wait what, you can get a GlaDOS voice pack for TTS engines? damn. i guess there goes my afternoon. thanks for the hint 😁
does it try to murder you?
No, but it does try to destroy my self-esteem. One could say that is a type of murder.
Here’s the study https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/
Well, that’s depressing. Although I understand why, if you’re not socially confident, approaching a woman romantically can feel terrifying.
I do find it interesting that most young women do want to be approached more, I wasn’t expecting that.
I also note the study is silent on how many women have approached a man, and I don’t think they even asked the question.
Depressing? Why? One could choose to live in certain way.
So many comments echoing “women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!”
I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that’s the message you took. It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.” Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you’re not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you’re reducing women’s feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.
The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.
