Damn, that sucks. I wonder what people were fighting about in that part of the world? Oh well. I’m sure it’s nothing important.
Edit: Maybe I’m wrong, and maybe I’m an asshole, but as a Jew with some historical awareness, I get kinda annoyed that the fight to liberate Jews from the antisemitic landlord class of Ukraine is portrayed as the greatest crime in modern history.
deleted by creator
Again, maybe I’m insane, but it seems to me that no one denies that the tsarist era elite (particularly in Ukraine, which as a matter of policy was heavily Jewish) encouraged antisemitic violence as a way to redirect class resentment. The Russian state responded to all three Russian revolutions by encouraging pogroms against Jewish communities. There doesn’t seem to be any controversy at all around this idea, and it’s heavily documented.
Using racism to protect the elite and undermine solidarity is why racism exists. In Ukraine, just like every other place where most people are made to endure false scarcity, racism is an essential tool for preserving the social hierarchy. To anyone in the US or Europe this should be pretty obvious, but we have to pretend like this dynamic doesn’t apply to challenging the landlord class in post 1917 Ukraine.
This is all broad strokes, but it’s the only way I can make sense of history in this part of the world, and my theory seems to accommodate everything. I’m not a historian, but my family history is absolutely defined by antisemitic violence in Ukraine, and I’ve really worked to understand it.
Edit: I’m open to criticism on these ideas. Understanding the history of Jews in Ukraine is really important to me, so if there’s something flawed in the analytical lense I’m using, please let me know.
Edit 2: Wtf does this have to do with the famine? At a critical moment Kulaks trying to keep powet undermined what was already going to be a poor harvest. They had the option to leave peacefulky but didn’t. Some unknown but large number of people died. The reactionary/victim blaming view is that if the elites had never been challenged the famine would’ve never happened and the Jews will just have to continue to be killed. Don’t talk about it because you’re defending Stalin. This probably isnt really true because there were also climate factors that contributed to the famine. The correct view, which is the one I hold, is that the best chance to avoid a famine would’ve been for the agrarian landlords of Ukraine to kill themselves.
I really think you are on to something here. There has to be at least Soviet sources that documented the history of the Jewish people in Ukraine in the first couple decades after the revolution. So hard to get good info at the moment because anything that dares paint Ukrainians in a negative light gets buried.
There’s fascinating primary source documents, called yitzkor books. People wrote these as memorials to their villages (very often in Ukraine), giving personal and community histories, often including the holocaust and it’s aftermath. Some are boring. Some are harrowing. A lot are not translated to English, but some are. I love reading these. I’ve found some wild and illuminating tales, and at least what I’ve encountered has been universally pro soviet.
Here’s a good source: https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/
Wow now they’ll surely categorise every famine started by the British in India as a genocide right? Or maybe other famines in other colonised countries started by white people?
I wonder how much unforseen diplomatic and political blowback this will cause with Africa, India, and Latin America.
Nothing much as of now since these countries don’t take too much of a anti western stance. Although I wish India just improved relations with China and moved closer to them instead of sucking up to colonialists.
You’re probably right. I’m just being optimistic that it’ll come up during the next insufferable Euro lecture to the Global South about how everyone needs to sacrifice their energy needs to support the Banderites.
You mean like the famine that happened on the southern plains of the US in the 1930s?
No way, I cannot believe the fourth Reich has engaged in holocaust denial. :shocked-pikachu:
Rewriting history to own the Russians. Even if they came to this conclusion based on actual facts (they didn’t), why don’t they care about the non-Ukrainians who died?
just gonna leave this here if anyone needs it - from 1988:
https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/11/21/in-search-of-a-soviet-holocaust/
edit: adding a few choice quotes
“They’re always looking to come up with a number bigger than six million,” observed Eli Rosenbaum, general counsel for the World Jewish Congress. “It makes the reader think: ‘My god, it’s worse than the Holocaust.’ ”
Your husband’s courage and dedication to liberty will serve as a continuing source of inspiration to all those striving for freedom and self-determination. — Letter from President Reagan to the widow of Yaroslav Stetsko, ranking OUN terrorist, murderer, and Nazi collaborator, read by retired general John Singlaub at a conference of the World Anti-Communist League, September 7, 1986
Just as the Nazis used the OUN for their own ends, so has Reagan exploited the famine, from his purple-prosed commemoration of “this callous act” to his backing of the Mace commission. Faced with failing fascist allies around the world, from Nicaragua to South Africa, the U.S. war lobby needs to boost anti-Communism as never before. Public enthusiasm to fight for the contras will not come easy. But if people could be convinced that Communism is worse than fascism; that Stalin was an insane monster, even worse than Hitler; that the seven million died in more unspeakable agony than the six million …. Well, we just might be set up for the next Gulf of Tonkin. One cannot appease an Evil Empire, after all.
They’re always looking to come up with a number bigger than six million,” observed Eli Rosenbaum, general counsel for the World Jewish Congress. “It makes the reader think: ‘My god, it’s worse than the Holocaust
Didn’t the holocaust kill 11 million total. It feels weird to discount the 5 million Roma, gay people, communists, disabled people etc who were systematically murdered
They will recognize Nazi propaganda before recognizing their own actions against the native Americans
European Parliament adopts literally Nazi propaganda as official doctrine
Yet another piece for the “liberals hate socialists more than they hate fascists” pile
It’s a multi-combo!
- Russia bad!
- Socialism bad!
- Holocaust wasn’t as bad!
- Rehab Hitler!
What an absolute joke
Love to be a criminal because Nazi propaganda has become the official version of history.
disagreeing with Hitler is probably the coolest crime you can do if it’s any consolation
European poo poo shit recognizes fard as doo doo ass
recognize deez nuts
Wow so brave. The European Parliament loves meaningless gestures like this.
As a quick fact to throw at libs: not only was the famine present across all of the USSR, but Ukraine wasn’t even the worst hit - Kazakhstan lost a greater percent of it’s population, but never do you hear talk of a “Kazakhdomor”.
don’t give them any ideas, i’ve heard reactionaries from all the famine hit regions whine about how the ukrainians get their genocide recognized but their’s aren’t
That’s going to be the theme of Borat 3
deleted by creator
aren’t Russians also white
deleted by creator
well there we have it folks if the British want to brexit out of being European we know what they have to do
“BREXIT MEANS BREXIT!”
The billowing war cry was heard repeated across the battlefield as the First Battalion of the Norf FC Communist League (ML) charged down the streets of London. The remains of the Gherkin, collapsed a few days ago after a team of Sapper Lads mined the supports, provided cover for thousands of uncles, red in face and flag.
Three days of fighting later, the City of London was successfully dislodged from the rest of London and pushed into the sea.
