• Omega_Jimes@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    Freedom of speech or freedom of expression isn’t freedom from consequences. Words matter, and they have consequences, and people should consider the consequences of their speech in public.

    • Jason2357@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      Agreed. Fuck off with this “we have no free speech” bullshit, substack (and it’s freedom of conscience in Canada in the first place, not free speech). All of the things listed are social consequences, not criminal prosecution or some other government persecution. Sarah was booted by her party, not the government, and the rest are employers and universities. If there is fault, it lies with those organizations.

      It’s also not protected speech, so if there is fault, those organizations will have to suffer social consequences themselves, as it doesn’t seem that they broke any laws.

      • cobra89@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        The censured her:

        The Doug Ford government has put forward a motion that would censure an Ontario NDP MPP over her comments on the Israel-Gaza war and ask they not be recognized in the legislature until a formal apology is made and a statement on social media is deleted.

        The motion calls comments made by Hamilton Centre MPP Sarah Jama last week “antisemitic” and “discriminatory.” If passed, it would call on the Speaker not to recognize Jama in the House “until the Member retracts and deletes her statement on social media and makes an apology in her place in the House.”

        So they’re trying to completely take away her ability to govern because of her speech. So yes, the government is trying to silence her.

        • Jason2357@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          And like several things Douggie has put through, it will ultimately be deemed illegal. That bill is a clear violation of charter rights.

          • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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            1 year ago

            I’m not familiar with how censure works in the Ontario Provincial Parliament legal framework. Do you have any examples of precedent where a censure motion has been struck down in court? Because my understanding is that the majority was within their legal powers to do this.

        • AnotherDirtyAnglo@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          You mean the government that was handed a 66% majority by 17% of eligible voters?

          You get the government you deserve when you don’t fucking show up to vote.

      • phx@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        There’s a bit of a blurred line when they’re members of government or government organizations versus private employers.

        A political party IS part of government, even if it’s not the political party leading the country. However, a party shouldn’t be forced to keep somebody who goes off the rails and is causing them damage. At the same time, those same parties seem to be very pick-and-choose about which “rebellious” members they decide to expel and over what issues

        • blindsight@beehaw.org
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          1 year ago

          Also, one of the examples cited was York University, and universities are provincially regulated and funded.

      • bioemerl@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Clock is ticking. Just wait until the companies start fucking you over with this power you’ve given them.

        • Jason2357@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          Like most people, I avoid companies that platform hate, and am perfectly contented being banned from them if they go that far. That’s not a power they ever didn’t have.

          • bioemerl@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Like I said, clock is ticking. You won’t be so happy go lucky when it’s your job getting a new CEO or a big platform like YouTube denying you access to a platform.

            • Jason2357@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              My job getting a new CEO? Getting a new useless figurehead is supposed to scare me? Why? Youtube is going to block me? Why should I care? They either moderate hateful content, or they lose me and a great many others -voluntarily.

    • Kichae@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      Indeed. And if the NDP won’t allow its members to recognize that Israel is an apartheid state, then members who see it as such should abandon the party. Both those serving as public representatives, and regular members and donors.

      • settinmoon@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Asking a genuine question regarding the apartheid terminology here. When someone refers to Israel as a apartheid state with regards to Palestinian civilians it always doesn’t make sense to me. Because for that to be true, one needs to consider Gaza and Westbank to be Israeli territory, which I don’t think is a concept that anyone who makes this claim agrees with. To me, that’s like saying North America is an apartheid continent because Canadians and Mexicans don’t get the same rights as Americans in America.

        • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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          1 year ago

          During the Apartheid era in South Africa there were also nominal “independent” countries, known as Bantustans. Israel occupies the West Bank, effectively controlling it the way a Bantustan were controlled. The blockade of Gaza has a similar effect. Finally, there are discriminatory laws in Israel proper. For more information, read this as a starter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

          • settinmoon@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            Thank you for the explanation. To me it still seems to be a case of expanding the terminology beyond it’s original meaning given the context. The situation today is more of a country occupying part of another country while laying siege on another part of the said country. If this can be referred to as apartheid I don’t see why it can’t be used on most invasions and occupational wars in human history. Furthermore, I’m too young know what people thinks of South Africa back then, but as far as I can remember South Africa has been seen as a single unit in my lifetime. Hence, referring to Israel as an apartheid state in my mind has the implication of Israel somehow has the right and responsibility of ruling over Palestinian territory. Treating the citizens of an occupied country poorly is bad but shouldn’t automatically qualify as apartheid, even though I agree there are some resemblance in practice.

            The case with Israel proper is more interesting because you can make the case that there are some apartheid elements such as the fact only Jews enjoys the right to automatically become Israeli citizens which isn’t available to other ethnic groups that currently resides in Israel. However to my knowledge Israel proper isn’t what most people think of when they make the case that Israel is an apartheid state, even tho imo it makes a more compelling case per definition.

    • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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      1 year ago

      Don’t be dense, read the article. The story is not about legality or free speech absolutism. It is about how the window of acceptable political speech in what is considered mainstream has narrowed to a stifling degree to exclude very reasonable milquetoast peacenik sentiments.

      • rbesfe@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        the story is not about legality

        Then it shouldn’t use the words “free speech” in the headline. Free speech is very much a legal term.

        • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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          1 year ago

          So is theft and murder and inheritance. We use legal terms in regular parlance all the time.

          • rbesfe@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Ok, and? Regular parlance can be about legal implications too, I’ve never heard the words “free speech” used in a context with no connection to their legal meaning. Do you have a counter example?

            • frostbiker@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              I’ve never heard the words “free speech” used in a context with no connection to their legal meaning. Do you have a counter example?

              Yes. The very article in this post.

      • Omega_Jimes@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        It’s complicated. Legally we don’t have “freedom of speech”.

        For clarification: Do I believe that’s a core human value? Absolutely.

        Do I believe that tolerance is a social contact we should all abide by? Very much so!

        Do I trust society to regulate itself? Heck no, from a sociological point of view that’s a mess for lots of reasons. In smaller communities it may be ideal, but anything anyone says now is considered on a global scale.

        So, from where I stand, it makes sense for a governing body to place limited restrictions on what a person should be allowed to say in the public sphere. This specific issue is debatable and relies on a certain amount of faith in the institution. Is it right that these people were punished for saying their beliefs? That’s another complicated view that depends on a case by case basis. Is it legally allowable that a politician be censured for what they say? That depends on what they said. Is it morally allowable? From a moral absolutionist point of view, probably not, but our charters were made to prevent people from calling for violence in the public sphere. Is it morally acceptable to allow for someone to call for violence in a very real way as a political representative? What constitutes violence? How far can we deconstruct the rhetorical arguments our society is based on?

        It’s complicated. We don’t have freedom of speech and we don’t have freedom from consequences. If you give people you agree with freedom from consequences you also have to give it to the people you don’t agree with.

      • ram@bookwormstory.social
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        1 year ago

        It’s not a view. It’s written into our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and empowered by our constitution.

          • ram@bookwormstory.social
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            1 year ago

            Both the article in the OP, and the comment you’re responding to are using it in the legal sense.

            • corrupts_absolutely@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              unless i am failing to understand what is being said the article is saying otherwise.

              For them, free speech is freedom for them to collect a paycheque while saying the most boring, obvious, cliché, bootlicking shit they can come up with. That is free speech — the right to do these things with minimal government involvement.

    • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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      1 year ago

      The article is not about free speech absolutism. It is about journalism. Hate speech has nothing to do with it.

      • folkrav@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        “You” being who?

        Edit: it was a genuine follow-up question to a statement that I feel could have been interpreted in a couple of ways, and his answer did give some precisions on his position, which is why I wanted to ask, rather than assume. No idea why refusing to judge hastily warrants downvotes lol

          • kent_eh@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Freedom of expression doesn’t mean free from consequences.

            It only means you can’t be arrested for what you say.

            • corrupts_absolutely@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              so in your opinion when charlie hebdo shooting has happened the artists and writers have maintained their freedom of expression well into their deaths? after all they were free to make any kind of comic and they didnt receive any government backlash.

              • Zorque@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Yeah, actually. They did. Consequences don’t always come from those in the right. Sometimes they come from fanatics and deviants. Consequences and justice are not synonyms.

                You can provide protections from certain unsavory consequences, but those protections will never be perfect. Sometimes terrible things happen to people for expressing themselves. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have the inalienable right to express themselves in the first place.

      • folkrav@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        I mean, you do have it codified in your Constitution as its very first amendment. Now, how much is it really protected, in practice…

  • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    I’m pretty sure only Cons try to say we have free speech because they don’t know our laws

    Of note though; freedom of speech means freedom from persecution not freedom from consequence

    • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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      1 year ago

      Tell me you didn’t read the article without telling me you didn’t read the article.

      • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        So where did they highlight people being put in court over comments and where did they explain that they are aware we don’t have free speech so even someone being in court isn’t a problem?

  • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    No, we have freedom of expression, not freedom of speech and it’s not unlimited contrary to the USA.

        • Nougat@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Even in the context of the US First Amendment, which makes it so that the government cannot abridge your right to free speech, it’s not unlimited. Think “Yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded theater, when there’s no fire,” or libel/slander, or terroristic threats, or, I dunno, witness tampering.

          There’s lots of speech which must yield to other rights and protections.

  • Pxtl@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    Therer are people who could be discussing this credibly but a troll like Loreto isn’t one of them.

  • jet@hackertalks.com
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    1 year ago

    This is exactly why we need to have open and censorship resistant platforms.

    We should never celebrate deplatforming people for unpopular or evil opinions, not because we agree with those opinions, but because those tools can and will be used against good causes / us eventually.

    The cancelling culture, and rage framework that has existed in the west media is now being turned against “worthy” causes.

    I’ve gotten into many deplatforming is evil, and shouldn’t be encouraged/allowed arguments on lemmy - this is exactly why I engage. Do I care about kiwifarms, communists, racists, no… I do not, but when its time for my voice to be heard above the whargarble of public opinion i need those very same platforms to exist.

    The next step would be to legistate that protected free speech should also protect people from employment discrimination and reprisals, but that is probably a discussion for another day.

    Today I think the big fight is over saying : Killing civilians is bad, ethnic cleansing is bad, genocide is bad…

    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      We should never celebrate deplatforming people for unpopular or evil opinions

      Bullshit, people with evil opinions keep others from expressing themselves, tolerating them means deplatforming others and means they have more space to recruit.

      • Jason2357@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        Agreed. The central example is a NDP member being censured by the party for her views. THAT IS WHAT A POLITICAL PARTY IS. She would have also been removed if she started arguing for tax cuts to the wealthy and restrictions on union activity. Even perfectly legitimate political opinions can make you totally unfit to be a representative of a political party. Words have consequences and political parties are social structures with social rules. Cry me a river, this isn’t a free-speech issue.

      • jet@hackertalks.com
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        1 year ago

        Then you get this situation the article speaks of, people being de-platformed for speaking against evil in the world.

          • jet@hackertalks.com
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            1 year ago

            Clearly we have a philosophical divide. We value different things in this world. We are both “right” to our own philosophies.

            If one group can make another voiceless i think that is a larger risk to the human condition, but I see where your coming from.

              • jet@hackertalks.com
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                I’m very consistent in my views, I do not tolerate anyone being de-platformed. I am intolerant of de-platforming. I do not tolerate anyone trying to remove the voice of anyone else.

                I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. - Poppel The Open Society and It’s Enemies

                De-platforming is a form of rhetorical suppression, as OPs article points out.

                • moody@lemmings.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Which means that you tolerate intolerance.

                  as long as we can counter them by rational argument

                  The saying goes that you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

                  De-platforming is a means to show that the platform doesn’t want to be associated with specific content. Being against de-platforming means you are on the side of forced speech.

    • acargitz@lemmy.caOP
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      The article points out that those that have been bitching about free speech being suppressed when it’s about some bigot spewing fash crap, are uniquely silent when it comes to racialized people speaking out about genocide and apartheid. The “free speech debate”, “anti-wokism”, “anti-cancelling” etc has never been about lifting the voices of those who are structurally silenced at every turn in this country. It has always been about people that already have privilege being able to punch down with impunity. So fuck that.

    • jet@hackertalks.com
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      1 year ago

      As an aside, the number of times, this week!, I’ve had a argument about the dictionary being wrong, and that the definitions are inaccurate, sensational, antisemitic… is laughably high.

      • ram@bookwormstory.social
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        1 year ago

        Arguing that the dictionary is correct and should be cited as the arbiture of language ignores that language is a fluid, evolving structure. Dictionaries are guides to help seek understanding and seeking to be understood. They’re not law by which we must abide.