Sometimes when watching videos on effective ways of public transport and trams come up, I get a bit annoyed at people not addressing the fact that they seem to share the road with cars. Why do people twerk for trams so much as a form of light rail if they share the road with cars and are subject to being affected by traffic? Doesn’t that just make them rail buses without their own bus lane? Doesn’t that make them more obsolete? Why do people like them so much?

Edit: Also, does anyone have any resources about the cost to benefit ratio of different intratown/city forms of transport (bike lanes, BRT, trams and other forms of light rail, subways etc)? Would be much appreciated.

    • t_jpeg@lemmy.worldOP
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      10 months ago

      Fantastic. So a nice small town can really rely on well planned out bike paths with a good tram network if they can afford the upfront costs. If not, then a BRT system or similar with separated bus lanes would be the next best thing, making sure that these “mid” to “short” distance forms of transports linl well with the town’s train station(s).

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        But they’d probably do it in the opposite order. As a town evolves its bus network into something more mature, trams may be a next step. However, I do think BRT will be chosen over trams every time, for the cheaper infrastructure

        • t_jpeg@lemmy.worldOP
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          10 months ago

          The problem with this though is if a town/ city can afford a tram network but chooses not to in order to cut corners for upfront costs, it shows a lack of commitment. The wrong government/ council comes into power and a BRT us getting rolled back straight away for car centric infrastructure again.

  • TrainsAreCool@lemmy.one
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    10 months ago

    It’s all about the right tool for the job. Trams work well for shorter trips, and can be a serious upgrade over buses.

    However, there’s a bit of a trend in North America to use low-floor trams in somewhat inappropriate places; building expensive tunnels, guideways, and stations in less than appropriate places. Which basically results in a metro, but worse (slower, more uncomfortable for riders, and still often interacts with traffic) for something that still ends up being expensive.

  • JoBo@feddit.uk
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    10 months ago

    They’re way better than buses. There’s a direct comparison here: Birmingham is a small city, including a plot of bus times vs tram times at different times of day.

    While the tram is substantially quicker at all times than the bus, the reliability of its timing, even during the most congested periods, provides an additional large benefit to users.

    We think that people generate the most agglomeration benefits for a city when they travel at peak times, to get to and from work, meetings, and social events. Our tool shows us that at the times when people need to travel in order to generate these benefits, buses are extremely slow. And since buses are by far the largest mode of public transport in Birmingham this is likely to have significantly higher impact on Birmingham than in Lyon where the largest mode of public transport is the metro, which delivers reliable journey times no matter the time of day.

    Our hypothesis is that Birmingham’s reliance on buses makes its effective population much smaller than its real population. This reduces its productivity by sacrificing agglomeration benefits. For the past six months, using our Real Journey Time tool, we’ve worked with The Productivity Insights Network to quantify that.

    • yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      There’s a direct comparison here: Birmingham is a small city

      If you want to have a large city comparison, look at Berlin.

      Berlin was divided after WW2 until 1989. West-Berlin, like most of West-Germany, removed all of their trams and replaced them for individual car use and buses. East-Berlin largely kept their trams.

      The difference between trams and buses are huge. The „schedule“ of the major West-Berlin bus routes have become a running joke among Berliners: „You’ll wait and wait and suddenly there’s a herd of them!“. It’s bad. Really bad.

      Trams are the reason I live in East-Berlin and would never, ever move to West-Berlin.

      • JoBo@feddit.uk
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        10 months ago

        If you want to have a large city comparison

        Once again, Birmingham is not a small city. It’s a very big city but its reliance on buses makes it effectively much smaller than it could be because the commutable zone shrinks with the slowness of the buses at rush hour. Hence the snappy title of the piece I linked.

        Berlin is an excellent additional example of the effect on a big city. Thank you.

        • yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          Yeah, I know Birmingham, I just went with the joke, sorry. Maybe should have added some air quotes.

          Berlin is only „big“ because it gobbled up a lot of area in the past. Outside the central districts it‘s often just suburbs or even literal villages. and the public transport becomes… limited… 😬

          I guess a more honest comparison would be the West Midlands, roughly the same size, population close to 4 million (Berlin) vs 3 million (West Midlands).

          Still though, Berlin is a very interesting example not just with regards to public transport, but also with regards to housing, street lighting, etc. Really impressive what a mere ~40y of differences in government policies can accomplish.

        • Womble@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          Its a terrible title, as you can see from the multiple people who misunderstood it. Interesting article though.

  • frankPodmore@slrpnk.net
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    10 months ago

    It all depends, really. As other people have pointed out, you can allay the problems of car traffic by giving trams right-of-way, dedicated lanes or both.

    I’ve tried to summarise what I understand are the key pros and cons of trams vs. buses below. As you can see, I’ve come up with more positives than negatives, but it really does depend on the particular situation in each town or city. Mixed modes are always best, IMO!

    Upsides

    • Trams are generally easier to electrify than buses, so they can be more eco-friendly in that sense, though this is changing with better charging infrastructure, hydrogen fuel cells, etc., for buses.

    • Trams can also be built with very low clearance, making it near impossible for them to run someone over, which is a good safety feature.

    • They’re generally quieter than buses, too.

    Mixed

    • Trams cost more to build compared with buses (because you need to lay tracks) but then cost less in the longer term (because rails and metal wheels are more efficient than tarmac roads and rubber wheels, and wear out more slowly). So, which is best from a cost POV depends on your exact situation.

    • Tram rails can be laid with grass underneath, which is more eco-friendly for numerous reasons. Of course, this also entails a downside if you want to use that space for other vehicle types. Again, another one where a planner would need to weigh costs and benefits.

    Downsides

    • The key downside is that they need tracks: this makes them much harder to divert around some kinds of temporary obstructions which buses can easily manoeuvre around.
    • ginerel@kbin.social
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      10 months ago

      The key downside is that they need tracks: this makes them much harder to divert around some kinds of temporary obstructions which buses can easily manoeuvre around.

      If you have a more dense network, you can always divert lines on other streets if there are any issues. My city is also using temporary switches and trams with driver cabins at both ends whenever there are works going on.

  • Jomn@jlai.lu
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    10 months ago

    An issue I have with trams is that they are very slow if not properly integrated in both the city layout and the general population of the city. For example, in Marseille, trams have to frequently compete with pedestrians and bicycles that keep walking/riding on the tram line. This doesn’t happen with buses (or not as frequently).

    The one thing that makes them better than buses in Marseille is that trams are more reliable time-wise since they don’t have to share the road with cars.

    • yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      in Marseille, trams have to frequently compete with pedestrians and bicycles that keep walking/riding on the tram line

      Ugh, that is definitely annoying and dangerous. I used to live in Erfurt, Germany for a while. Quaint medieval old-town, huge cathedral, very popular with tourists, some major attraction happening roughly every weekend.

      So they have that really narrow alley running from the cathedral to the central square where all the tourists and citizens are squeezing through, and yeah, lo and behold, they run a tram through it as well… 🤪

      I gotta assume the majority of Germany’s ~30 tram deaths per year are drunken tourists in Erfurt.

    • TheOneCurly@lemmy.theonecurly.page
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      10 months ago

      Boston has a similar problem where the trains come above ground. They run in the center of a split street so they have to stop at traffic signals and are frequently struck by cars attempting to cross the intersection when they’re not supposed to. What should be a fast and easy mode of transit is instead frequently derailed by traffic accidents.

  • Seven@startrek.website
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    10 months ago

    Trams are awesome, I’ve used them quite a bit in Sheffield and Valencia and in both cases they were the best solution where an underground metro wasn’t feasible.

    • t_jpeg@lemmy.worldOP
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      10 months ago

      This is interesting. I was talking to someone who studies in Sheffield and they said it’s a terrible city for public transport

      • Seven@startrek.website
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        10 months ago

        Maybe it’s worse now, I moved away about 15 years ago. Admittedly the trams were mostly useful for getting to specific areas and didn’t cover everything, but a lot of that is constrained by the geography there!

  • ginerel@kbin.social
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    10 months ago

    My city has started separating tram lines from the roads with fences, and it’s all just great. We had next to no bus lanes until this year, and I still have none where I live. The bus sits in traffic and can stop for around 5-10 times at a traffic light, while the tram only stops once. Sometimes even the bus driver opens the doors before getting to any station. This never happened with trams. On the other hand, if one tram breaks, the others have to wait for it to be moved - although this doesn’t happen that often on the line I’m using the most.

    Another thing to note is that even when there is no separation from the traffic and the lines are asphalted, it’s still illegal to go on the tram tracks (albeit this is one of the rules that is not that well enforced, because our police sucks, it’s good that it’s there).

    Our municipality also purchased longer trams and plans to purchase some more, some even longer than what we have now, but it’s great. It’s a good way of making public transit more attractive for the people, hopefully getting them out of the cars and solving congestion.

    We also have a metro system, which is also great and highly appreciated, but it doesn’t go anywhere in the city, and its extension has been rather slow in the last 30 years. The company managing it is also owned by the government directly, so that’s another hurdle in its development. The tram network, on the other hand, is owned by the local transit company, and is denser. I’m sure there will be more extensions to it if the municipality will throw the right money at the right projects.

  • JamesFire@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    I get a bit annoyed at people not addressing the fact that they seem to share the road with cars.

    So you’re saying the cars are the problem…

  • azezeB@discuss.tchncs.de
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    10 months ago

    Well for starters a tram can move a lot more people than a bus with just 1 driver.

    You have more safety in adverse weather conditions.

    They usually last wayy longer than buses. (so more cost effective)

    I’m not completely sure on the traffic one, like, they have their own lane, and in my country you cannot use it so could you elaborate on this one?

    Of course a bus is better for flexibility, but for fixed travel routes the tram just seems a lot better for me.

  • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    There’s a lot of confusion with terms, the definitions are loose to begin with, and a lot of misuse as well, so terms are all a mess.

    From what I see a tram (a streetcar in North America) is defined as sharing the road. But there are lots of people (and a certain prolific youtuber) that just wants to call everything a tram or a tram-[insert modifier].

    A light rail has a dedicated right of way and as many grade separations as you want to pay for, all the way up to what’s commonly called a metro. Too many people are incorrectly calling these trams.

  • Zeppo@sh.itjust.works
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    10 months ago

    Denver and Portland have pretty good light rail. They handle traffic areas well, and can move quickly between areas where they have long stretches of unobstructed rail. My only complaint is limited stations where you can board - like, if I have to walk a mile to the nearest station and a mile back with my groceries or whatever after leaving the train, that’s not ideal.

  • lapingvino@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    A bit of a history of trams: they existed before the modern electric bus, as horse trams, because they could carry more people. Most tram networks have been removed since the introduction of the bus. Modern trams however can increase capacity a lot, and even small trams can fix hard problems like in the Lisbon inner city. Many modern trams are somewhere on the light rail spectrum and are both faster and often have more dedicated right of way, so they don’t get stuck in traffic. Understanding this, you can see how you can often also fix the same issues with dedicated bus lanes, but a tram track also fixes refueling properly. A third option is of course a trolley bus or a trolley/battery hybrid. Every location needs something that fits the local circumstances.