Apparently there’s an issue with some instances banning users for criticizing authoritarian governments. Is lemmy.world a safe place to criticize governments?

  • lhx@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Well let’s find out: Free Ukraine! Fuck Russia. Fuck China!

  • FlaxPicker@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    i mean lemmy.world server is in germany, but the guy who runs it is dutch so probably has a pretty open policy with freedom of speech i would imagine. And i mean real freedom of speech not the dog whistle for being a dick/racist/phobe

    • PhillyCodeHound@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      As one of the Admins of Lemmy.World we’re pretty open but if you’re a dick and unnecessarily a troll we’ll kick ya.

    • Andonome@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I still feel like I need a new term for this. Yet another word co-opted by idiots.

        • Andonome@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Nah. I want to defederate from people sharing racial slurs, because I cba with them. If they don’t consider that a ‘consequence’ then I don’t really care.

          I definitely don’t want consequences for people sharing negative opinions about governments.

          So I guess I just want freedom of speech + personal curation.

          • Edgerunner Alexis@dataterm.digital
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            1 year ago

            I think the crucial thing that’s missing from traditional social media is actual freedom of association, and I think thats the underlying thing that causes all these issues around “free speech.” Freedom of association is the natural counterbalancing mechanism for “freedom of speech” in any form, and without the former the latter must either become incredibly toxic and damaging or be suppressed.

            One of the interesting things we’ve lost (up till now) compared to physical, offline communities is that if someone was being a never-ending dick or a sealion, the rest of the community could just start naturally avoiding them and not inviting them of their own individual accord, and over time that would lead to the person being excised from the group — unless there was a reasonably sized contingent of the group that disagreed with that, at which point the two groups would just split, all without totally banishing anyone.

            Or you could yourself choose to leave the group and find another one, if they consistently refused to deal with or helped bad actors, while still maintaining access and contact with some people from that group, and the common social setting and contacts you and the group exist in.

            In other words, you’d have a natural, gradiated, and horizontal system of social self-policing that could take care of these kinds of things in a distributed manner. There’s a natural outlet besides just trying to shut someone down entirely by removing their access to any community in the area at all or trying to shout over them.

            These mechanisms are very hard to implement on centralized social media because it is essentially one gigantic social group that you are either fully a part of or fully separated from. Thus any decisions made about who is and isn’t part of this social group are made unilaterally for everyone, and there is no room for diversity in norms and expected behavior, because everything is technically this one giant group, so there has to be this centralized compromise set of one size fits all rules. And because of the unilateral and centralized nature of everything, you need a unilateral and centralized decisionmaking procedure, which in practice and up just being faceless top-down moderation either descending to band someone or ignoring people’s pleas.

            So it ends up being very difficult for social media communities to self-police in a coherent way, because the platforms operate at two coarse-grained a resolution to see those communities, and it’s difficult for people to disengage from toxic stuff they don’t want to interact with.

            This has created all of the problems we see with speech on social media now, where people who want to be dickheads perceive themselves as being oppressed, victims of authoritarian censorship, because community policing has to come centrally from above, instead of happening naturally and horizontally by a bunch of people either telling someone to leave or leaving themselves; meanwhile people who just want to live in peace and share their joy and interests online find themselves with a very little recourse to reliably avoid such dickheads and find places that feel right for them.

            Reddit has this problem to less of a degree because it lets you create different smaller subunities of the social network that all have different moderators and different rules, but it’s imperfect.

            I think the solution to this is partly decentralization and federation, because they allow people to naturally associate and disassociate with one another on a very individual level that more naturally mirrors how communities and social groups work in real life. Communities can form their own rules, norms, and cultures, and push people out in a meanongful way without having to totally banish them from the entire social world, and people can also naturally move between them until they find one that aligns with what they need and their values, with the right degree of openness and closedness to the rest of the Fediverse, without losing contact with everything else and thus avoiding network effects and isolation effects. The fact that instances can de-federate or mute other instances creates this really interesting ability to partially fragment the network without fully fragmenting it so that you can get truly different experiences on different instances.

      • Lols@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        you continue to use freedom of speech and dont give them the satisfaction of coopting it

    • EndOfLine@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Doesn’t Germany have laws against certain hate speach? Would those laws apply to lemmy.world and it’s hosted content?

      • chillhelm@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        [IANAL] In Germany only specific types of hate speech are criminal. These are:

        • Use of Nazi symbols and slogans for other than artistic or educational purposes (things like the Swastika, the SS logo, or the Nazi salute, but not more modern versions like the “white power” guesture and similar)
        • Direct calls for violence against groups or individuals
        • Denying that the Holocaust happened or trivializing it’s extend

        Other forms of hate speech might be cause for civil suits or may oblige the platform provider to remove your speech, but do not rise to a criminal offence.

        Again: I am not a lawyer.

  • SPOOSER@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    All governments should be able to be criticized if we’re going to be honest about having genuinely open discussions.

    • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      Seeing as having the ability to criticize gov’ts is a fundamental part of democracy I fail to see why any social media site would think banning it should be best-practice.

      That said I do take issue with some posters who seem to rant on a specific target without any sort of evidentiary data. The slide into “I don’t need proof to back my opinion” is a prolific and dangerous thing these days.

      • gamenac@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Its always difficult separating held beliefs from personal or social identity. Evidence for or against something is rarely enough to get someone who has an identity tied to a belief to change thier opinions or not react out of a fight or flight response.

        I think setting and enforcing boundaries regularly while not ostracizing or demonizing people is a better way to approach it. Its hard, takes time, and isn’t guaranteed to work; but it comes from a place of tolerance and acceptance rather than condemnation.

        I agree wholeheartedly that letting rants go on unchallenged is a big issue, it provides a rallying point for others with similar beliefs and pushes the boundary back away from accountability and discussion and towards emotional and fear based outbursts. Do you think there is room for healthy discussion here on the fediverse and specifically in this instance?

        • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          Do you think there is room for healthy discussion here on the fediverse and specifically in this instance?

          Yes. But even just looking through this thread it seems the problems follow the same patterns anyway.

          I am an ally of all persecuted groups and I ask for evidence from those who choose to state their opinions. If none is willingly provided I block them. This, to me, is the only way social media can be fairly run. Anything more than that becomes what twatter, f b and reditt have become.

          Exceptions to the above will always have to be made tho, ie: direct threats, doxxing, etc. … what mods are for.

          • gamenac@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            That is definitely one of the issues with any social platform or outlet. There is always the push to form in and out groups based on unifying characteristics, behaviors, social status, etc. I do think a major thing that is missed is calling out behaviors and beliefs that are not supported by facts; e.g. giving the same weight of truth or spotlight to outlandish conspiracy theories vs. scientifically backed data (climate change is a good example)

            Hopefully this place can find a happy medium that invites good faith discussion instead of bad faith actors.

      • Ghast@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        It was removed, and I was marked as a bot.

        I am not a bot!

          • GuyDudeman@beehaw.org
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            1 year ago

            So, the latest thing that I’ve seen is that supporters of the CCP will label anything critical of the CCP as “racism against asians”. Not sure if that’s the case here, but there have been a lot of posts about the CCP, so… maybe?

            • MercuryUprising@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Its the first move in the foreign troll farm playbook. Use the enemies own morality against them. You see this in threads discussing the Uigher genocide. To the 50 cent poster it is both morally wrong for you to criticize it because you are just a sinophobe, but on the other hand the CCP actions are justified because they are protecting Chinese cultural identity. Its just typical fascist hypocrisy logic.

  • Sun-Spider@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Hey there. This instance currently follows the code of conduct and rules for mastodon.world: https://mastodon.world/about

    Discussion and civil criticism of these subjects is allowed, but name calling, ad hominem attacks, and other uncivil behaviour breaks the rules.

    Also remember that specific communities here may have additional rules.

    It looks like we can’t pin comments yet, so apologies if this reply gets buried. For now I’m going to lock this post, as the discussion has degraded and is full of rule-breaking.

  • Striker@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Lemmy.World and Lemmy. Ml are two different places. Lemmy ML was created as a safehaven for people from subreddits that were banned like ChapoTrapHouse. Lemmy. World is designed to be the general Lemmy Community. Lemmy. Ml was the biggest until the reddit issues but I am pretty sure Lemmy World is after overtaking them. Lemmy.ML is trying to steer traffic here because they know that their community wasn’t going to be palatable to the vast majority of people. There’s a wide variety here so it’s very hard to pinpoint where this place’s userbase stands politically.

    Lemmy. ML and Lemmy.world are different places and it’s for the best if we just leave each be and have our own communities in peace.

  • Izzy@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    It’s difficult for people to have discussions on the internet that involve disagreement without it becoming uncivilized. I don’t think being critical of the CCP is a particularly divisive viewpoint everywhere outside of China. I can’t imagine the conversation devolving to such a state that it has to be completely banned from being discussed.