Logline
A distress call from Lt. Noonien-Singh compels Spock to disobey orders and take the USS Enterprise and its crew into disputed space, risking renewed hostilities with the Klingons in a bid to aid their shipmate.
Written by Henry Alonso Myers & Akiva Goldsman
Directed by Chris Fisher
A note about episode discussions on startrek.website
Right now, the plan is to post the /c/startrek discussion when the episode drops on Thursdays. Once the global community has had some time to watch and digest what they’ve seen, the /c/daystrominstitute discussion will go live on Sundays for a more in-depth analysis. This is subject to change as we evaluate what works best for the community as a whole.
Since this is our first episode discussion on Lemmy, we have a couple of reminders about our expectations.
Constructive Criticism - criticism is welcome, but please put some effort into explaining why you did or didn’t like something. Just saying something was “good” or “bad” isn’t exactly laying a foundation for discussion.
Spoilers - when a new episode airs, we enforce spoiler tagging for approximately one week. When creating threads about episodes that are less than one week old, please keep spoilers out of the post title, and use spoiler tags in the body of your post. Obviously, spoilers for this episode are allowed in this thread.
- I am 100% here for the chaotic energy that Carol Kane is going to bring to this show.
- The Klingon captain had exactly the right amount of swagger and sassiness that a TOS-era Klingon captain is supposed to have. I’m glad that they’re moving on from some of the Discovery Klingon characterization while also resisting the urge to jump right to them behaving like TNG Klingons.
Hemmer was my favorite character from season one, and is very difficult to replace in my heart. But Carol Kane is one of those actors you just can’t help but love to see on screen (in any capacity). It’s going to be very hard to be upset knowing she’ll be around.
I do wish we were able to keep Hemmer around longer.
Completely agree with both points. The Klingons were altogether great - makeup and hair were perfect, and the captain at the end was the icing on the cake
Ortegas inverted her controller settings as everyone should 🎮
Honestly Inverted Stick for Flight controls makes so much more sense on controller because that’s what you would do with an actual flight stick
Being a ship already, wouldn’t the Ent already be inverted and she’s just changed it back?
For the love of Pete can we stop with all of the lame catch phrases and dumb jokes? Spock should have just uttered something simple suiting the Vulcan personality/character, like “proceed”. But no, we have to get a lame line one step above a fart joke…
I really don’t get why people are so upset about the warp catchphrase thing. I think its great that there’s a tradition through Trek lore. It reinforces to me that these are all people. People working hard to advance themselves to the point they daydream of sitting in the Captain’s chair. Every single Trek nerd can empathize with that daydream.
@arod48 @startrek For me, it breaks the suspension of disbelief. The whole “catchphrase” conversation was, for sure, a writer’s room thing that leaked into the scripts. It might be an interesting thing to reflect on for the writers and the fans, but it rings untrue when the characters spend so much time on it.
It reminds me of all those “Let’s put on a show!” situations in various movies and TV shows. The characters in those programs probably wouldn’t be inclined, but for the the entertainment community that produced the show, it’s second nature, and often allows them to entertain the audience by letting the actors show off their other talents (viz Picard lustily quoting Shakespearean sonnets to impress some Ferengi). Sure, it’s entertaining, but if you want to suspend disbelief and get into a story about highly trained people helming a starship, bristling with weapons and technology, it’s jarring.
IMHO, of course 😉
It made sense in Lower Decks when Freeman was coming up with “warp me” in a quiet moment, but this kind of “stop the action dead for a funny bit” is one of the worst trends in modern writing.
I find those episodes and movies in general annoying when it happens. Like it’s so transparent this entire thing is just a giant love letter to hollywood, filled with inside jokes that only people in the entertainment industry would really get. I guess I find it so annoying because it shows how out of touch many of these people are, which sheds a little light on why/how all of our favorite franchises are being systematically destroyed.
Spock should have just uttered something simple suiting the Vulcan personality/character
I would argue that that’s exactly what he did. That line was very representative of where his character is in this episode - stressed-out and awkward.
I think it would have been better as a comic moment towards the end of the episode, as they leave to come home… In the tense moment of stealing the ship and answering distress call it felt very forced.
As President of the Spock/Chapel fanclub and a sucker for Klingons, I feel that this episode was plucked out of my brain.
I loved it.
I’m also glad they began to explore a bit of post war PTSD through M’Benga. It’ll be interesting to see how far they go with the Gorn.
Regarding Nurse Chapel almost dying - this is one of the TV/movie tropes that I think is such a cheap and terrible device and I am tired of it. Discovery was full of these scenes where they make you believe a main character really almost died, only to survive after all, and having their crew mates weep for them (I am looking at you Burnham). There are much better ways to create good drama.
I’d normally agree with you but I don’t think they were trying to fool the audience in this case. It was more about shocking Spock’s emotional reaction.
Still, there’s better ways of showing that than the almost dying trope.
spoiler
Nurse Chapel is in TOS - so there wasn’t really any risk that she was going to die here.
Yeah, putting aside that not everyone has seen TOS who is watching this show, I didn’t interpret this as some kind of attempt to make the audience think Chapel was going to die. The purpose of this happening was all about what it shows about Spock and the scenes and character development that come from that.
And I think in this case it was quite effective and I wouldn’t change it to something else. Spock was holding off the order and he was really upset because he didn’t want to give the order that kills Chapel and M’Benga (though he has more attachment to Chapel). The threat to their lives is a vital part of this story they’re telling about Spock and it wouldn’t have the same effect if they changed the situation to something else. Seeing him have to give the order, then have them be possibly alive, but then having Chapel seem to be dead and Spock himself bring her back was very powerful for me and I don’t think that could be replaced with something else or a different kind of situation and have the same impact on either Spock or the audience.
Both the scene in the transporter room and in sick bay later were excellent excellent scenes for Spock and highlights of the episode for me. Ethan Peck’s acting was really strong in those scenes too — I’m so glad to have him playing Spock.
undefined> I’d normally agree with you but I don’t think they were trying to fool the audience in this case. It was more about showing Spock’s emotional reaction.
Yep that was my take as well.
It makes even less sense on a prequel show where you know the characters are for sure around longer.
As someone who actually enjoyed Discovery, that’s one of the things I couldn’t stand about it. And it really disappoints me that they used it here. You can’t have the stakes of every damn episode be that high, so it really bothers me that we get it in the first episode of the season. I really hope it’s not a sign of things to come.
But we know Chapel isn’t going to die in this show. She was in the follow up series that’s been canon got 60 years.
I concede that point but I still hate that plot device.
@triktrek Oh, boy - Can we talk about “Picard”?! Data dies in Nemesis, a great and noble sacrifice. Which is then diminished, because we brought him back for Picard! The staff didn’t think the Nemesis sacrifice was a worthy sendoff, or perhaps *they* wanted to do the sending off. So we’ll kill him again, this time with feeling! But, season three, the old gang is all getting together again. Maybe we can resurrect him one more time? (I’m aware of the supposed differences, but really. It was Data.)
And they killed off Picard! Another great and noble sacrifice! But no, not really, let’s bring him back as an android, you’ll never notice the difference! 🙄
It’s really at the point where a character’s death is robbed of all drama, because there’s always a way to resurrect them. It was a dream, they were in the Mirror universe, the mycelium network made a copy, etc.
I agree. That’s why it would have actually been shocking if there were to really kill Chapel. I only watched Games of Thrones lately (yeah I know), and boy was I shocked at the various kills of main characters.
In the last scene it did seem odd that m’benga was absolutly fine yet chapel was still in effectively ICU
Don’t watch SW Episode IX then lol, I think they had like five or six fakeout deaths? jfc
Yeah, that was pretty dumb too.
Pelia is like “I have been alive for hundreds of years and I’m going to make that everyone else’s problem.”
Thoughts and observations written as I watch- I’ll be putting this on both Reddit and Lemmy, since infinity diversity/infinity combinations:
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Wheeee, NCC-1701 in the Star Trek tag!
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Previously: Last season happened.
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Little ships flying!
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Wonder who the lawyer that Una and Pike have tried to reach is.
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Oh, hey, the Vulcan musical instrument whose name I can’t remember!
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“Fascinating.” “Isn’t that usually his line?”
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The fellowship on archeological medicine? Is that a reference to Dr. Korby?
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“We must steal the Enterprise.” Buddy, if I had a nickel every time someone had to steal the Enterprise, I’d have several nickels.
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Lt. Mitchell gunning for series regular next year with how much screen time she’s had early on this episode.
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Okay, having Carol Kane is already paying dividends.
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And, yeah, Carol Kane doesn’t need alien makeup to be an alien. She’s already an alien.
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I’m still not sure if the emphasis one the warp catch phrase is amazing or annoying, but this scene was funny.
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KLINGON UPDATE: RIDGES!
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So clearly La’An’s augmented ancestors were genetically engineered to drink a lot. Which, y’know what? Fair.
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Ah, the borderlands, where utopian rules go away and everyone becomes a Ferengi.
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Congratulations to Uhura on graduating from the Academy.
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Ah, the old “I have technology that I’m totally not making up that will blow you up” bluff!
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New transporter chief?
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Okay, so the angry borderlands people are trying to do some sort of false flag thing.
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Redundant Klingon organs, the old standby.
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Roided-up doctors can tell you what bones they broke as they break them.
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These are obviously Discovery sets.
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This action scene, while well-done, is way too long.
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A D7!
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“We’ve gotten out of worse.” “No, not really!”
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“This I’ve got to see!”
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I wonder if “Lanthanite” is a synonym for “El-Aurian”
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Pelia knowing that being on the Enterprise means adventure is further proof that those ships are goddamn weirdness magnets.
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Gorn. Yes, it stretches canon but fuck it the Gorn are awesome we’ll come up with an explanation later.
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“For Nichelle”
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Overall, while not one of the better episodes, it still was a good start to the season. It wrapped up one of the hanging threads of last year (La’An), we continued to see some of Young Spock’s struggles with his emotions before he became the more-Vulcan Spock that Nimoy was in the main TOS series, and we got our first look at Carol Kane as the nutty new engineer. Overall, I’ll call that a win!
“For Nichelle”
I cried. I also teared up a little bit when Celia briefly channeled Nichelle early on in the episode.
Yeah that got me too.
@FormerGameDev @Continuumguy me too
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Not a terrible start but sadly not one of my favorite episodes for sure.
I don’t really know how to describe what I didn’t like, but I think it boils down to just how disjointed and rushed the pacing feels. For something so high stakes, it all felt really easy and predictable and just a bit boring.
It also felt like they were really really aggressive about making sure you understood the message about Spock. Seriously felt like a character was going to wink at the camera whenever they said something like “you’re not a normal Vulcan!”.
If I had to describe it, I’d probably go with Saturday morning cartoon surprisingly. A lot of story crammed into not enough time, with a heavy handed message about a character.
I didn’t hate it, don’t get me wrong. It just wasn’t unique or interesting like so many episodes are.
I feel like the ‘boring’ rush from sequence to sequence is happening a lot in media right now. I remember feeling the same during a couple of episodes of the last season on Mando.
Almost like paying and rewarding writers properly, so you get their best work is important.
Best I can put it down too is that they’re keen to make the characters seem strong and powerful, but they forget to set up proper flaws, tension and stakes/the ones that used to exist have been ruined by now over a decade of magic resurrection macguffins whenever somebody dies in popular media that fans like.
As sub par as TNG Season 1 was, and regardless of the toxic behind the scenes environment that led to it, we can’t deny that them killing off a principle character was a bold move than really set the stakes that anybody could die and that it wouldn’t always be in a blaze of glory.
Yeah, same goes for me. It was good, but it felt inexplicably “off” when compared to the first season.
I just love this show, the feeling I get when the intro rolls is the same as when I was I was 15 watching the TNG intro on TV. The characters all feel special and unique even if I’ve seen every episode of every series.
I must say I’m already a big fan of Pelia.
Agreed! Carol Kane is always fun to watch.
@End0fLine @LibraryLass In my head, she is always in an unintelligible shouting contest with Andy Kaufman.
I was first introduced to her in Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt and I’ve loved her since. She has a quality that just puts a smile on your face.
To me she will always be the witch from Princess Bride.
Edit: “I’m not a witch, I’m your wife! But after what you just said, I’m not even sure I want to be that any more.”
I get a lot of shit for this in my life, but I have never actually seen that movie. But that quote makes it sound up my alley.
It’s one of the funniest, most exciting, most romantic movies ever made. I’ve met in all my life only one person who didn’t enjoy it and she was kind of awful in general. I would bet you would like it too.
I love that you’re hinting that you may be able to tell something about someone who doesn’t enjoy this move. I hope I like it!
I think that came off way more sarcastic than I intended…
Not going to give you shit but I am going to suggest you should watch it at your earliest opportunity. I suspect you will enjoy it a lot and wish you’d seen it sooner.
I wouldn’t give you shit for it, but I would hand you a well-used DVD of the movie and tell you go watch it immediately. It’s a good time.
Meta: Would it be possible not to use NSFW for spoilers? I don’t really like having all the porn subs showing up in my “All” feed, but I feel like I have to keep NSFW ticked if people are using it for spoilers and not just porn.
I’ve untagged it - let me know how it looks.
Unfortunately, there’s no “spoiler” tag for posts.
Thank you so much. :)
Carol Kane is such a gem for this show, I can tell already.
She’s so good! Already I really like her character!
personally I find her gramma Addams act a little hamfisted, but maybe it’ll make sense as the season goes on.
You shut your whore mouth about a legend kid.
I’m not entirely sure if I have to spoiler tag this since this is in the discussion thread but I will anyways since the rule doesn’t say the threads are an exception to the rule.Edit: Thanks ValueSubtracted for the clarification on this.Really disliked this one. And I loved just about all of season 1.
One of the main things for me is that the pacing felt far too quick.
For instance, when getting the injection of the super serum, they only briefly mentioned M’Benga’s issue with it and quickly moved on without any sort of issues beyond that brief line.
I also have some issues with the characterization and general way the crew acted. They seemed a lot less professional in this and unlike an actual Starfleet crew.
Spock’s emotional side, while I suppose justified in-universe, made him feel a lot less “Spock” to me. I was fine with his behavior in season 1 but this just feels a bit far, to the point of him being nearly unrecognizable. His “I would like the ship to go. Now” make me physically recoil in cringe with how unfunny I found it to be.
M’Benga and Chapel just beating up a bunch of bad guys three separate times felt incredibly unnecessary and I fail to see any sort of reason there couldn’t have been some sort of clever escape rather than bland, mindless fighting. I think I skipped a whole minute total of them just punching the bad guys with how long the scenes drew on for. And the way M’Benga’s issue with the super serum was just brushed over with a fleeting line came across as poorly executed.
La’an outdrinking a klingon seemed rather ridiculous and all I could think of was that it seemed like a bad D&D introduction to a stereotypical “cool” character. And then her burping? Did they really need a burp joke in this? It came across as uncharacteristically juvenile for the show.
That said, I did like a bit of it. Visual effects were great as always and I appreciated the slightly different intro. I’m glad the cliffhanger from last season both wasn’t immediately resolved or dwelled upon too much. The false flag operation was a neat idea and it was cool to see yet another type of ship. The Klingons looked and sounded perfect and much more similar to how they were in 90s Trek, I’m glad the design was changed to this from their design in Discovery.
Overall, I very much disliked it, despite a few positive elements to it. No hate, I just disliked those parts of it I talked about.
Finally, this isn’t any sort of issue I take with the show but they said that the false flag ship was Crossfield class. However, it didn’t look anything like a Crossfield class beyond the ring in the saucer. Did Starfleet change the Crossfield class to a different design?
No spoiler syntax necessary in these threads!
Good to know, thank you!
That’s great because I don’t know if I can do so from a kbin instance, the syntax doesn’t do anything on this end. Going to do a bit of science here.
spoiler Test 1 2 3
Foo Bar Bah :::
Yeah I’m not seeing any spoilers from your comment on Jerboa
I agree with a lot of your concerns. Two medical staff taking drugs and beating a mob of Klingons senseless with little hesitation and no apparent ramifications is horribly, horribly out of tone with what I’ve come to expect from Trek.
Spock is another issue. I’m fine with him undergoing growth and having a full character arc - but I really don’t see this Spock becoming the one in TOS — a Spock who disobeyed direct orders from Starfleet and was reluctantly able to potentially kill two crew members goes on to have the disastrous experience as leader in the Galileo Seven? Best I can see is he actively goes as hard as he can on suppressing his human side in the near future but that wouldn’t make him suddenly forget what emotions, illogic, and all that human baggage feels like when he’s interacting with humans later in his career.
(And for the record - I really enjoy Ethan Peck as Spock and watching his struggles with his emotional control. I just don’t feel like it’s the same character as in TOS and don’t see how he’d get there.)
Yes, this is my main complaint with this episode and SNW wrt Spock in general. I sort of get the idea that he’s going on an arc from “Smiling Spock” in the cage to TOS, but it’ll be a real weird kind of change over to TOS Spock IMHO from this. And like you said, how does he become the Spock in the Galileo Seven? At this point it sort of seems like he’d need a mind wipe or something…
I certainly would have thought something like him saying “It is illogical to require “a thing” to carry out lawful orders lieutenant.” and if pressed again something like “We do not have time to waste - carry out your orders”.
This “everyone has a thing” is stupid, and to do it in multiple series?
And Spock’s whole thing to continue to wait / worry about M’Benga and Chapel after saying their choice was logical didn’t fit for me, nor did his reaction to Chapel. How does he go from that to TOS “ignoring/not noticing” Chapel’s thing for him, and lack of interest in her?
I noticed Kirk didn’t have a “thing” in TOS. It’d be funny if he at least thought having a warp catch phrase was stupid and didn’t do it in SNW.
The Crossfield mismatch jumped out to me as well. A response earlier in this thread suggested perhaps the Klingons put the saucer of a Crossfield with the drive section of a different class because that is what they had lying around. Not explicitly stated, but that makes sense to me.
I recall reading somewhere that Akiva is trying to arc spock from “smiling spock” in The Cage through koh’linar and into TOS spock over the lifespan of SNW. Spock ditching his emotional blocks and starting to ‘lose it’ already this season would play directly into that plan. He continues unraveling for, say, this season and part of next, and then he embraces koh’linar to regain composure and control of his emotions. Perhaps McCoy is around for this particular event, witnessing Spock’s ‘transition’ into a computer, setting up all the remarks from TOS.
deleted by creator
Except Spock didn’t do Koh’linar till TMP, or are you suggesting that there were different stages of the ritual?
La’an outdrinking a klingon seemed rather ridiculous and all I could think of was that it seemed like a bad D&D introduction to a stereotypical “cool” character. And then her burping? Did they really need a burp joke in this? It came across as uncharacteristically juvenile for the show.
Would’ve been expected by the Klingon opponent. Who when he tried to do it, nearly puked himself.
I don’t know that I agree with the characterization issues you’re mentioning, but as far as the cold read as a Crossfield, she does mention that she just thinks it’s one. Other than the secondary hull being hilariously overlong, the saucer cutouts are easily the most distinctive part of a Crossfield, and they weren’t terribly common based on what we know from Discovery. Based on that, I could see how someone could read a Crossfield saucer bolted onto the back half of an upside down NX to be ‘oh I guess that’s what Crossfields look like?’.
There’s been a fan theory for a while that the reason for Discovery’s really long nacelles was that the ship (and Glenn) were specially modified for the spore drive experiments.
This episode would seem to reinforce that.
Also interestingly the saucer seems to be the one from the original (substandard) CG teaser Discovery saucer, rather than the final show version.
I loved that they gave Dr. M’Benga some screentime front and center and showed that he can throw down if necessary, even if it was with the help of some super serum stuff. And while I even loved his (and Nurse Chapel’s ) elaborate fight scene and enjoyed the way they filmed it, I’m also not sure if it quite fits with Star Trek. Just not sure yet with the excessive slow motion. The camera angles however were some great artistic choice. But overall one great start to season 2.
