This was originally posted to lemmy.pineapplemachine.com
[http://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com]:
https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781] It has also been posted to
lemmy.ca [http://lemmy.ca]: https://lemmy.ca/post/591991
[https://lemmy.ca/post/591991] ā Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that
means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I
think itās important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or
concerned with anyoneās politics, and Iām certainly not here to argue with
anyone about them. My concern is that users are being banned and content is
being removed on lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] citing a rule that is not publicly
stated anywhere that I have seen. Moderators of lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] are
removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are
banning their authors. This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans
are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my
instance had logged a lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] user ban citing āorientalismā
as the reason for the ban. Screenshot of my own instanceās modlog, as viewed by
an admin
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/81e3aa97-9fa0-4045-b27a-76d7f8a304e8.png]
I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in
!worldnews@lemmy.ml that had been removed with the reason āOrientalist articleā.
Screenshot of banned userās history on lemmy.ml
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/c3ac484c-6ae3-490a-82a7-1ae866286d48.png]
Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/6be9f59a-1a6b-41fc-9642-7c3127559c84.png]
Hereās the article that was removed, titled āChina may face succession crisisā.
It was published by axios.com [http://axios.com], which mediabiasfactcheck
describes as having āa slight to moderate liberal biasā and gives its
second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of
Chinese President Xi Jinping.
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis
[https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis]
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/ [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/] I
had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]ās rules that
would suggest that āorientalismāāmeaning, as I understand it, the depiction or
discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western onesāwas against the rules. So
I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instanceās front page, and
not in !worldnews@lemmy.ml. Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/b539fafa-ba1a-43f6-aa37-d954e908c809.png]
Screenshot of community rules for !worldnews@lemmy.ml
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/9a5a8a2d-cfac-4658-8ef5-77a885079756.png]
There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not
widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an
Asian government. This is where I went from confused to concerned. Lemmy
instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing
about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]ās
moderation log. Please note that moderation logs are also federated. Itās hard
to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking
at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think,
definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] moderators. My own
instanceās mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml
[http://lemmy.ml] admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml
[http://lemmy.ml] community. Iāve done my best to verify that all of the
following removals were really done by lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] moderators,
but I canāt be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were
actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against
orientalism. > Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against Chinaās racist genocide is
racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by
@CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org > reason: Orientalism Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/2c779f63-b231-4cec-8774-d999c8e26677.png]
> Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than
others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries
with decent governments, I donāt know of them. But like. If there were decent
countries, they wouldnāt behave like China. by @balerion@beehaw.org > reason:
Orientalism Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/2232fd34-b6f4-4958-a683-9ca549989922.png]
These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did
not seem to be breaking any of the instanceās or communityās explicitly stated
rules. > Banned @0x815@feddit.de reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china,
crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban > expires: 9d ago Screenshot of lemmy.ml
modlog
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/ba863eac-59a9-48b1-bc0e-801adebf5d37.png]
> Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China,
which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local
culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse,
kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You
know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the
fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org > reason:
Rule 1 and 2 Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog
[https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/a0e242b1-9a9a-4f66-8361-2f4b9d5a1a17.png]
I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a
communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance.
But I think that lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]ās moderators are entitled to enforce
whatever rules they please. Itās only that, as the largest single lemmy instance
so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an
obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious
and unstated rules. Iād like to raise some awareness about this, and Iād like to
openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] to state the rules that
they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly. I will be very clear and state it
again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a
rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can
coexist in this federated community even when we donāt share the same opinions.
What I am asking is for lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]ās rules to be clearly stated,
because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the
predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are
not being explicitly disclosed.
Iāve been aware of Lemmy for a long time, but Iāve always been somewhat wary of it because itās developed by tankies, and its flagship server (lemmy.ml) has a history of tolerating/encouraging tankie politicsā¦ Thereās just no way I could feel comfortable in a community that supports the right-wing nationalist Putinās war on Ukraine, or outright denies the harsh repression meted out against Muslims in China. Iām far from the only one leery of Lemmy for this reason ā the FediTips Mastodon account doesnāt recommend itā, either.
ā Jessica Smith, On Reddit and Its Federated Alternatives
And I agree. My position is very clear since Russia started its invasion in Ukraine. Not last year, but since 2014. Everywhere I hanged out, like the bird site, the zuck site or the snoo site, I didnāt have any trouble defending and stating my position, besides the typical lonely tankie who often appeared.
And when I joined the fediverse for the first timeā¦ tankies, tankies everywhere. Obviously that was in one single Mastodon instance, but that experience was not positive for me. And luckily, the instance Iām in is more supportive and doesnāt tolerate tankies. Same thing with sopuli, a Lemmy instance, where I can see posts about Ukrainian advances and success, or posts against Chinese government.
The more users, the more balanced the fediverse will be, but as that post says, there is still a lot to do against Muslim discrimination, etc.
Tbf, Western media presents a Western narrative, Eastern media presents an Eastern narrative. I am unaware of an unbiased narrative. Imo, perhaps drawing on all perspectives would give a more nuanced view.
You still can go to an instance like Lemmy.world (linked in the OP, actually). Those arenāt controlled by Lemmyās devs.
The link is just a little confusing because itās a Lemmy.world link looking at a discussion on Lemmy.ml, but itās not something on Lemmy.world itself.
Lemmy.world is run by the Mastodon.world guys, who are on the level. Lemmy.world is a separate instance with no ties to the maintainers of Lemmy proper. If the Lemmy devs ever do anything off-the-rails, then Lemmy itself can be forked into its own project.
A great example - you know Truth Social, yeah? Itās actually part of Mastodon. They took Mastodonās code, forked it, and put a new skin on top of it. Obviously Truth Social and Mastodon despise each other, but because itās all open-source thereās nothing Mastodon can do about Truth Social existing.
(But yes, those associations is one reason why Iām here on Kbin and not on Lemmy.)
I say we settle here on Kbin, soon we will have way enough content for everyone. We report the bugs, adjust the interface and we prepare a sane moderation so we have a nice settlement to present to the inevitable waves of redditors who will join us in the coming months.
I see that there is someone already publishing a Kbin extension for firefox, more is probably coming.