Does federation have a bit of a learning curve? No doubt.
Is Lemmy buggy as heck? Absolutely.
But I don’t think that really justifies a lot of the comments I’m seeing in Reddit alternatives threads that it’s hard to figure out. The front page feed and sort options are very similar to Reddit. Searching for same-instance communities is not too difficult. Posting, commenting, and voting are all quite intuitive. What’s the problem?
Anything new is scary
Reddit is complicated, they just forgot.The digg users said reddit was ugly and they would never use such an ugly site.
I tried explaining reddit to a diehard forum user, why are all the replies out of order? why are upvotes changing the posting order? this is so complicated!Don’t explain, tell them where to start and how to start. then it explains itself.
I can’t help but think that people who describe the Fediverse as complicated joined reddit after the redesign…
Kbin is exactly like an old, stripped down version of old.reddit.
I think this is also the cause of the squabbles.io Vs kbin/Lemmy split. Squabbles is like new Reddit, kbin is like old Reddit. And people like what they know
This last sentence is the crux of the matter. People don’t like change, but quickly forget that they spent time learning the site that they’re so familiar with.
This is 100% it. Also some people have only ever used iOS with the Reddit app and Twitter and Tiktok which are so easy to use a literal 3 year old can use it
In kbins case you actually have a responsive admin and can actually find devs on here working on new features and tweaks (hey there!)
Super happy with how kbin has been going so far
People also forget that Reddit wasn’t built in a day and digg didn’t die in a day
As a forum user, it was absolutely crazy to me when I first signed up on Reddit a decade ago that the replies would be out of order and sorted by popularity. But I grew to understand that it was a crowdsourcing effort in most ways and that the cream rises to the top. It was really quite good to get the information you needed out of the thread.
Anything new is scary
Agreed. Most people just want to settle into something comfortable.
I feel it, and if I had another chance to explain it would have just told her(forum user): make an account, go to /r/horses, start commenting.
It isn’t hard to sign up for. No one is saying that is the case. It gets confusing when people start talking about adding subscriptions from other instances and how you can copy and paste the link and subscribe. That right there is where 95% of the people on the internet stop caring.
If the developers of Lemmy and the wider Fediverse ever get that fleshed out in an intuitive way I think popularity will go pretty fast.
That and long term if there is a way for information to be collectively backed up so that if some owner shuts down an instance everything isn’t gone.
The first step is completely different from anything else you’ve ever done
“Pick an instance to sign up for”
This does not compute. What is an instance? Why do I have to pick? Which one should I pick? Compared to
“Create an account at reddit.com” makes sense and is something everyone has done before.
It doesn’t matter how simple the answers to those questions are, the fact that the very first step requires multiple explanations is huge, and will always be a barrier to entry.
The first step is completely different from anything else you’ve ever done
This isn’t really true, you already had to do this for email. Never heard of that being a barrier of entry.
My parents prefer to opt for local privacy/security focused email providers, while I go with gmail for the feature set and design. But I used to try out a few different ones to figure out which one works best for me. Still use a hotmail email for my Windows account.
I fail to see how this is different to the situation with lemmy/kbin instances.
99.9% of people just use gmail, and before that 99.9% used hotmail, etc. There’s always been ‘the one’ that effectively everyone is on.
Even a low barrier to entry tends to significantly improve the signal-to-noise ratio in discussions.
So, I’m fine with people that can’t get past making a simple, almost irrelevant, decision as step 1 of gaining access… not gaining access.
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You’re describing an internet that doesn’t exist anymore and hasn’t for decades.
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What is this about having to copy and paste a link to find subscriptions from other instances? I literally just pull up the community browser and set it to “all” and then search.
Yes, that will show you all the communities/magazines that your instance has already discovered and have started federating with. But if it is a community that hasn’t been discovered by your instance yet, you will need to search with the link for it to start federating. And once even a single user from an instance does that, the community will be visible to everyone else as well.
Yeah. Really, new admins should understand that they should be seeding their new instance, but the last couple of weeks have been… Kinda nuts? So, this won’t really be an issue for most users long term. It’ll be a thing for admins on small or niche sites that want to ensure they’re discoverable and that their users can access the best communities.
On Lemmy, if nobody is subscribed to a community on your instance, it doesn’t appear in that view.
In order for it to appear, someone with an account has to go to the search bar at the top right of the page and type in the URL to the community manually. Then it’ll appear after an initial search.
On large instances like Lemmy.world, you can almost guarantee someone has already done this for most popular communities - but newer/smaller communities may not appear because nobody on your instance has searched for them yet.
For smaller instances, there are likely multiple communities missing and you’d have no idea until you went to look for them.
That’s cause over time people have added communities to your instances repitoire over time. Network effect, essentially, making it easier for each new user. Tbh, if new users are on a bigger instance this should be a non issue.
Just be careful. That only works because your instance already knows about those other instances because someone already interacted with them. If you ever want to join a community on a non-popular instance, you might have to be the first person to search for it by copying and pasting.
Agreed. It still is a pain to follow subs on other instances, especially within Jeroba. I know you’re supposed to copy the !sub@instance into the search field, but it never comes up.
Kbin doesn’t presently auto-hyperlink the !sub@instance text.
I expect that it will in the future.
It will in the next update. See https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/pulls/317
For Lemmy, if nobody is subscribed to that community on your instance you have to copy the entire URL. E.g. you need to search for
https://instance.social/c/subin order to find !sub@instance.social.Once one person on your instance searches for it, then you can find it by searching !sub@instance.social.
I don’t know why Lemmy works like that. Kbin doesn’t have the problem; you can find things by searching
@sub@instance.socialno matter what.You don’t need to do that if that community is already federating with your instance. If its not, it might take a little while for the federation to actually start after you make the search (based on the server infrastructure of your instance and the remaining queue). Try searching again after a bit and it should be there. These quriks should be solved as instances become more stable, and Lemmy/kbin gets further developed.
The question everyone was really asking was if will they will be able to make these quality of life changes before the Reddit API changes come into effect. The answer seems to be “no” unfortunately. It’s a huge missed opportunity that may never come again.
Oh I have all the faith in the world that someone will come up with a solution eventually. I just assume it was never a major priority because of the userbase. With an explosion of users I’m sure they have a 100 things they want to improve and it is just a matter of time.
This can be alleviated a bit. If one person searches for an other-instance community by URL, it will become available for all other users through a normal search. So over time this becomes less of an issue, particularly if someone takes out some time to seed a bunch of these for their instance.
Kbin was trivial to figure out. Mastodon I still struggle with a bit.
What part of Mastodon do you struggle with, if you don’t mind me asking?
It makes no sense to me that there are separate forums for the same topic that have the same names other than “@instance”. IMO there should be a single place that is /politics which has the same posts and comments regardless of which instance you’re logged into. If these instances are “federated” with each other then they should act like a single shared space. Or at least that’s how it seems like it should work to me.
Hell no, I do not want this to happen because then you have lemmy tankies and exploding-head fascists all dog piling into normal discussions, saying preposterously stupid shit to spoil what you read as you scroll through the comments.
Then as a user you would be free to click to filter out comments from lemmy, and the top mod of /politics could choose to “defederate” from lemmy for that forum, and users at lemmie would be free to create /politics_tankies or whatever.
That’s a matter of moderation, not the technology behind the platform.
Wait so do communities not have mods?
I don’t know about other places, but at kbin each forum has mods.
Reddit was the same way.
You have /r/gaming. /r/games. /r/truegaming. /r/videogames. /r/videogame. Etc.
Each community was slightly different in subtle ways, but some people were subscribed to multiple (basically identical) communities. Others self-sorted into different communities based on moderation style and community vibes.
Not to mention that your idea of how federation should work kind of ignores moderation and community preferences. Communities hosted on Beehaw are tightly moderated. There may be other communities that want something less strict. How do these two reconcile with one another? What happens if a conversation is removed on one instance but kept around on another?
If local mods only have local power, they can get quickly overwhelmed as you effectively need a mod team on every single instance. Smaller instances wouldn’t necessarily have the manpower to have their own dedicated mods for literally everything.
Well, instances are all different, independent websites. As an admin, if I can’t name a community whatever I want on my own website, I’m probably not participating in this ecosystem.
Plus, 1000 times more posts get posted to r/bigsub than you or anyone ever reads, and 10,000 times as many comments. It creates an environment where no one is actually discussing anything, and are just jockeying for attention.
You won’t actually miss anything except for big vanity numbers by just choosing the community you like best for a topic and just… Ignoring the others.
There is no problem with similar communities. It wasn’t a problem on reddit and it won’t be a problem here.
Reddit has been around for quite a while. There are those of us who used to be tech-savvy “back in the day” that don’t handle change either quickly or well. For a casual social-media only user, this can be similar to the experience of a cave-person discovering fire. There are bound to be questions, especially when dealing with multiple types of instances on the fediverse. If we want this to grow into its full potential, we NEED to be patient and welcoming to even the most technologically illiterate.
Yep, this. I’m old, and I used to be super technically literate, but not anymore. Now I’m happy to keep my kids alive, use my smartphone to run my life, and ask a lot of questions. It took me embarrassingly long to figure out how to subscribe to something, and I’m not even 100% sure I did.
I’m cranky for at least 2 days if I have to get a new work computer for any reason. I don’t want to lose my reddit communities, so I’m trying, but I won’t if people are just rude to start.
There are those of us who used to be tech-savvy “back in the day” that don’t handle change either quickly or well.
I feel personally attacked, lol.
The problem I find with the technologically illiterate is that they immediately blurt out what’s on their mind. They ask the same fucking questions over and over, without searching first. The signal to noise ratio drops way down and every day is the same shit.
I am more than happy to interact with people of all walks of life but the internet is very “Groundhog Day” compared with when techies were the only ones on here. I’m not sure what the solution is that gives us perpetual cake.
For those that enjoy using Reddit, they are perfectly happy to remain… so why try to force the issue?
Their criticisms of this place are most often correct - it does have less functionality, it does have a barrier to entry, starting right from the beginning in picking an instance to join, and if you later switch then you have to make a new account and start over (I think? although your old content would still be accessible, it wouldn’t be “yours” anymore without logging into the old one). We prefer it anyway, but it’s up to them what they want to do.
this platform doesn’t have search and as far as I understand, doesn’t want to have search. so where are you thinking people are supposed to search exactly?
I would love to see your tutorial about how to search for information here.
Um, unless I’m misunderstanding you, no, there is a search here. At the top of kbin pages is a magnifying glass icon that does search.
I’ve also noticed a pattern of people asking for the fediverse to just behave exactly like reddit and thinking ant architectural decision that differs from a users perspective is an antipattern
Average internet user doesn’t understand internet
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don’t forget fiber optics!
In addition to the learning curve and the minor bugginess of Lemmy and Kbin, I feel like there may be some cognitive dissonance going on for users that are on the fence on whether they want to switch. To resolve the dissonance, one could either change their behavior (switch to Lemmy or kbin) or change their cognition (rationalize why they do not want to switch; for example by thinking that Lemmy or Kbin is too hard to use). Changing behavior can be hard especially if it is a habit built over a long period of time, so coming up with excuses for why one doesn’t want to switch would be the easier thing to do.
that is so dismissive.
people don’t want to switch because they had a thing that they liked and this thing is nothing like that.
I agree, and that is part of the cognitive dissonance between enjoying reddit for what it provided and wanting to switch to an alternative. However, if one is searching for a reddit alternative and will not switch to anything exactly like it, why should one even be looking for an alternative?
I don’t think that really justifies a lot of the comments I’m seeing in Reddit alternatives threads that it’s hard to figure out.
Haven’t been back there and didn’t read the comments…
But I think I can understand to a degree:
- Too many choices: Picking an instance can be confusing for folks that are used to only having to remember 1 name. I personally think this is a bit like people trying Linux for the first time and getting confused by all the choices available. Basically, it’s what some people call “analysis paralysis” but add to that the fact that you’ll get 12 different recommendations from every 10 people you all (e.g. there’s no clear consensus on the “best” one bc “best” means something different to each person). I think one list I saw on GitHub literally had over 200 instances… For non-techies, I could see that being a bit confusing
- UI differences: some things like making a post on kbin are a bit different (IMO not bad but still different enough that I could see some folks getting confused). Doing searches on lemmy for specific topics (not finding communities but searching for something in a community) is done from a different area on lemmy than on Reddit and IMO is kind of a pain in the ass currently. And on kbin, frankly, I’m not even sure we have that feature at all.
- Missing features: haven’t tried mobile apps (which could again be another point of confusion) but for desktop at least, AFAIK we don’t have anything comparable to RES yet. There’s no analog to multireddits. And we don’t have anything similar to reddit’s Saved feature yet. All valid complaints in my opinion. And someone used to any or all of those, might spend a lot of time looking bc they just don’t know if it’s hidden or does not exist. So, yeah, I could see so confusion there too.
I think there are a lot of advantages they’re probably missing too. I like that kbin/lemmy we can choose whatever fucking avatar we want instead of being limited to customizing our snoz or wtf Reddit calls their mascot thing. I saw one guy mentioning how there’s no karma bullshit to deal with for new accounts and absolutely agree with that sentiment.
tealdeer; meh, I like the fediverse and it’s not hard for me but I’m not shitting on people who don’t get it. If they want help, would probably help but not going to push it on people either. It is what it is and that’s good enough for me
‘teal deer’ lol
Great points!
I like that kbin/lemmy we can choose whatever fucking avatar we want instead of being limited to customizing our snoz or wtf Reddit calls their mascot thing.
“Snoo”. It’s a space alien.
I like that kbin/lemmy we can choose whatever fucking avatar we want instead of being limited to customizing our snoz or wtf Reddit calls their mascot thing.
You can still do that on new reddit. When looking at your own profile while logged in, there’s a little camera with a plus in the corner of your current avatar/placeholder. (There’s also a separate icon further to the right for uploading a banner image.)
Edit: Dang, I didn’t expect that image to look so big, it’s only 600x300
Ah my bad then. I really hated new reddit so I avoided it like the plague. Haven’t really been on there since either.
This is my first post…if my dumb old ass can figure it out, anybody probably can.
Welcome!
Fear and an unwillingness to try new things.
For example, some of the complaints that people had about Mastodon early on were just odd to me. They made such a big deal out of “you have to pick a server, no one understands that” or nitpicking UI interfaces between Mastodon and twt. They didn’t have logical arguments IMHO it was them just not being happy about change and not being honest about that.
Saying “I don’t want to deal with different servers within a single website” is illogical? Seems entirely logical to me. Anyone used to Reddit is going to be turned off to the whole messy fediverse thing. Me included. Legitimately, it evokes feelings of the dead on arrival Metaverse.
People want simplicity. We’re decades past the days of BBS boards.
It’s not a single website. And what’s with all the hate I see around here about BBS boards? BBS boards were great. I just want someone to loop me in about the hate. I just think with the fediverse we’re seeing a rise of a model that brings the best things about BBS boards to more modern web technologies
As someone who designs software you are vastly overestimating users, they wake up with their shoes tied together and spill hot coffee on their lap before they even get to the website.
I feel like certain users are echoing others in terms of the “oh it’s too hard/complicated” - I don’t know, imo not really just sign up, subscribe to your mags of interest which will pull across the fediverse and engage (up/down/comment) as much as you like lol… really not that hard but I guess change is hard for people (but then it’s not really much a seismic change? I don’t know - I guess I like trying new things).
“Magazine” is the biggest offender here. That’s a very unintuitive term.
Lmao what? For people born after 2010 maybe? Magazines have been a thing for decades and anyone over 20 is going to associate “magazine” with “series of articles about a topic”
I guess generally online the term magazine hasn’t been used often. Then again subreddit wasn’t either and that’s a made up word.
I was just thinking that. Subreddit is a dumb made up word that a corportation invented. Community and magazine are descriptors. Sublemmy or subbin are just people trying to map experiences from on platform to another, and are understandable, but I’d personally prefer to see us call them communities and magazines in the long term.
Bottom line. Subreddit. Dumb word. If you were able to learn that, you can learn “magazine”
“Magazine” implies little if any input from readers (letters to the editor being the exception). It doesn’t sound very interactive.
Not necessarily? I guess it depends on what magazines you read.
A lot of the magazines I’ve read over the years are collections of things submitted by readers. Model Railroader magazine is a bunch of model railroads submitted by people across the US. They’ll pick a few to feature, but they’re all basically submitted by readership and it’s fairly interactive.
Lego Magazine was the same way when I was a kid. While a lot of it was about upcoming Lego products, there was a significant section that featured Lego builds made and submitted by the community.
For newspapers, I’d absolutely agree that it implies an editorial staff and no input from readers. But magazines (to me) have always had a focus on community involvement.
IMO, it translates quite well to the web, and the fact that there’s a big ol’ “+” button with “add new article” as an option makes it pretty obvious that this isn’t just a static read-only place.
My main hangup was “make new post” vs “make.new article”. “Make new post” will make a Twitter-style short-form post in the “microblog” side; “make new article” goes as a Reddit-style self-post thread on the threads side. But once I understood that it was pretty straightforward, and I use both pretty regularly (articles for self-posts I’d normally post to Reddit, posts for little one-off thoughts or things I’d otherwise put on Twitter).
Kbin is planned to work with more fediverse stuff at some point as well. It already supports Pixelfed (Instagram) and PeerTube (YouTube). Mobilizon (fediverse event planner) support is on the roadmap, which would let event planning appear natively as well.
So if you ran a magazine based around a TV show, you’d be able to add a Mobilizon event that corresponds to when a new episode comes out. Then that event would serve as a “megathread” for episode discussion once the episode airs. It’s a pretty neat idea, since it intuitively reminds people when things are and gives the community a place to discuss.
I think that “magazine” is fine. As is “sublemmy”. But I kind of am not enthusiastic about having two different words for them, unless there are future plans for them to act very differently.
From a user standpoint, unless he’s talking about the internals of the server involved, there isn’t really a difference. Saying “sublemmy/magazine” is just verbose and annoying. I’m on Kevin, but I want to be able to refer to magazines/sublemmies in a way approachable to all the people reading the content.
The only real issue I have is that searching for communities I know exist on other instances often fails, and opening them in their home instances doesn’t offer a subscribe button to my host instance.
With you on that one. Some small youtuber I have followed for years setup over on lemmy.world. I know it exists, but searching on kbin, no matter what I try, doesn’t yield it to me. Unless it hits the frontpage or I am accidentally looking at the new feed the same moment the guy posts there, I won’t really have a way to subscribe. Also don’t really want to wrangle multiple accounts.
You way overestimate the tech literacy of the average Joe or Susie.
That seems to be what basically every person is doing lately. They act like there is no difference between Lemmy and Reddit. Sure, signing up is easy. But understanding subscriptions is a different situation entirely.
I suspect in the next 6 months or so Lemmy is going to see a bunch of UI improvements as more open source devs learn about the project. It’s similar to the UI of Reddit 7-8 years ago, but I’m in the minority of remembering what Reddit was before it became https://old.
It feels unrealistic to expect a small platform that blew up, not ready to scale to be as polished as something built by a large paid organization right of the bat.
Exactly. There’s a reason Apple products are so successful. Apple does a fantastic job of hiding away unnecessary details and giving users a very slick, polished interface that usually does what they want. I’m not even a person who buys any Apple products.
That’s why I’m asking about this. What am I missing here that’s supposed to be making it difficult?
How to find the established community you want to be involved in.
And humblebragging.
