For the last few years franchise movies like star wars, marvel, etc. made money regardless of quality. However now it seems like audiences are being choosier when it comes to these kinds of tentpole releases. I’ve seen some people online say that the movie/theater industry is losing people in general but I don’t think that’s the case.
Super Mario and spiderverse made a lot of money. And Oppenheimer, Barbie, and Dune seem to be tracking well. I think the problem is that people are getting sick of the same old stuff and need more than just a brand name to go to the theater. What do you you think?
I think Flash and Indiana Jones flopped because they’re garbage. Spider-Verse was a masterpiece and clearly a part of the shared universe franchise. Guardians 3 is nearing a billion dollars at the box office.
People aren’t tired of franchises, franchises are just generally getting worse. MCU is a mixed bag with some outliers still doing really well. We’ll see if the new phase can keep up with the introduction of new characters that most people don’t know. But I’m honestly not terribly hopeful.
I think the audience is simply being smarter with their money. A bunch of recent franchise movies have missed the mark and the audience is saying as much.
Super Mario
Dune
Across the SpiderverseAll franchises. But they have so far given their target audience what they’ve wanted.
Why go see Flash when it’ll show up on Max (or whatever) same with Indiana Jones which will be in Disney+ soon enough.
People are fed up with low-quality cash grabs as they always have been.
And they’re probably exhausted with the superhero movie tropes that have plagued the genre for over a decade.
People did show up for Flash. The movie wasn’t great so the week to week drop off was massive. I think it’s more about being served poorly written movies. If the films are of quality it is clear people will go see them. I agree that many types of movies aren’t popular in theaters anymore. The streaming battles of 2020-2021 hurt the market and trained people to expect high quality offers on streaming platforms. I think that was a bad move by studios rather than waiting out the storm and it will be a hard road getting back to a more balanced release schedule for theaters.
There are only two good indy movies and that’s raiders and the last crusade.
Anything else was crap and crap Indiana Jones movies are nothing new.
Dune and so on are objectively good movies even though they play the hobbit tactic with dune releasing only half the book.
Why people like avengers and marvel and these movies I have no idea. Only a select few of these movies are watchable.
I felt compelled to reply, don’t really know why but here it goes:
“There are only two good indy movies and that’s raiders and the last crusade.”
Temple of Doom also has it’s charm, many of the most iconic Indy moments, beautiful cinematography and boldness to do things differently. It’s the weakest of the original trilogy but also the most interesting one to watch.
“Anything else was crap and crap Indiana Jones movies are nothing new.”
Yeah the two new ones are kinda crap. It’s an interesting duo as the Dial of Destiny is technically a better movie of the two but at the same time it’s the most indifferent and forgettable. Crystal Skull was crap but at least it had some original ideas and fit the original concept of rejuvenating the style of pulp/adventure literature of the era it’s set in. DoD was mostly a collection of recycled cliches and unnecessary cameos with few interesting ideas that were forgotten after being presented.
“Dune and so on are objectively good movies even though they play the hobbit tactic with dune releasing only half the book.”
True, Dune was great. But knowing the source material I am happy they chose to film it in parts. I actually think it could have been a trilogy.as there is so much going on in the original book.
“Why people like avengers and marvel and these movies I have no idea. Only a select few of these movies are watchable.”
That’s one of the great mysteries of life. Although it probably helps that they were a pop culture phenomenon even before the movies 🙂
Its 5head marketing for Oppenheimer
No, but it means that mediocre cash grabs won’t make as much money anymore.
Maybe, I honestly love going to the movies but it seems the age of the generic blockbuster is done really. It’s nearly all sequels or franchises. I want to wathc something not particulary groundbreaking but still interesting and not need to watch it’s five previous movies.
The last movie I felt scratched that itch for me was the DnD movie which was relatively detached. I like movies like that and I wish there were more. Don’t get me wrong I like a good franchise but when everything is a franchise it’s maddening.
i would love to see revivals of old franchises go the way of the dodo. i am as nostalgic as any millennial but if i want to see indiana jones or ghostbusters or whatever, i’ll just watch the originals.
i don’t think the superhero franchises are going anywhere, unfortunately. they are still reliable, even with some people losing interest over time. it seems like a good moneymaking bet for disney at least. and all the studios seem really risk-averse lately, more than they used to be.
I’d more interested in MCU stuff if they tried something new with them. It’s why guardians as a franchise did so well. The cracks really started showing id argue with captain marvel.
I’m just bored of superheroes in general, I think. I watched up to the first Avengers movie as they came out, and kind of lost interest after that. GotG was fun, and I liked the first Black Panther. Loved Thor: Ragnarok. There’s just probably a limit to how much someone can do with that set of concepts without getting repetitive.
It’s more to me because of the studios interfering. Its worse with wb and DC but like cause it’s a overarching universe each individual projects suffers creatively because of it.
I haven’t bothered with DC movies since Wonder Woman (2017). It was an OK movie, and then I stepped outside and forgot about it. So I can’t speak to how bad those movies are, haha. With Marvel, I do think the quality is good, it’s just that I’m not interested anymore. I have a hard time understanding how anyone is still excited after 15 continuous years of the same stuff.
I heard bad things about the last Indiana Jones, so I won’t see the latest one as I would feel like I was missing out on something. Same goes with the Flash… the films don’t come across as independent from each other so I won’t bother if it seems like I need to have followed the franchise until that point.
End of franchise films ? Not even close. What I think you’re seeing now is the floor is much lower for franchise films than before (especially with comic book movies). You need more than “it’s a Marvel movie” to have people go out and come see. The top movies of the year are still either sequels to franchises or based on existing IP.
That’s true. I should have titled the end of the “risk free” franchise film. Disney and WB drop 200 million on a movie and start filming without a coherent script because they knew that the film would coast on the name alone. I think those days might be gone. Marvel and others might need to step up their game to survive.
The bar has definitely been set with Spiderverse, especially for Multiverse movies
Agreed completely. Writing and Direction are key and studios will definitely need to recognize that (ironic considering the writers are still in strike).
Out of the loop, why is there a writers’ strike?
In short. studios are trying to replace writers with AI
That was part of it. They are also getting stiffed by streaming services.
The bar has definitely been set with Spiderverse, especially for Multiverse movies
I think this is more accurate. You still need effort. I will say Flash and IJ are probably not the best examples though. Flash wasn’t bad and neither was IJ. Flash suffered due to the antics of the Ezra. It also had very inconsistent VFX. Even when sitting in a damn cockpit, they still out a layer of CGI over Ezra when they’re in the suit and it looked awful. If practical effects can be done practically, they should do so. They clearly could do good VFX in the movie, but it’s clear when it wasn’t needed. Faces are still difficult, so they should avoid working on them when they don’t need to. Rubber masks work. I can’t imagine they cost more than the VFX, but based on how they treat VFX artists, who knows. Moreover, it retread a lot of ground that was already done in Flashpoint. Plus, you have the conservatives trying to cancel (and in the same breath arguing against cancelling others) anything that has a woman replacing a man, or an actor that identifies with any of the LGBTQ+ letters.
Indiana Jones on the other hand suffered because the target audience has aged out of theaters. Crystal Skull definitely didn’t pick up a large contingent of fans. The style of movie is definitely aged. Current moviegoers like consistency down to the detail. Indiana Jones does not have that. None of it makes sense when you start to analyze any plot point. But it was never supposed to. The major plot points are more important. Everything else was an excuse to put Indy into ridiculous scenarios. That type of action hero movie just isn’t popular with the main movie going audience.
Plus, half the reason for lack of interest in Flash is that in franchise terms, it’s a “dead man walking” --the whole DCEU is getting the (re)boot after this, so there’s no incentive to watch this installment when you know there’ll be no payoff for anything it sets up.
Agreed. Early-mid 2010s were hollywood’s golden ticket for franchises. Another hunger games? A marvel movie? Star Wars? Hobbit? Just keep churning them out and we’ll go see them.
Now we (at least me and the people I talk to) are over the big franchises. For example, I love the infinity marvel movies, yes they’re repetative and predictable but they were fun, and I started watching them with Iron Man. It was a ton of fun seeking out easter eggs and predicting where it’d go. But it’s over, they finished it, and IMO they finished it well.
Now… well, another one comes out, super, I’ll see it when I get around to it. I’m definitely not going to go to the theater and I’m not going to buy a copy, so sometime on a streaming service probably.
I do hope we see a renaissance in individual films. I’ve been catching up on my backlog and there are so many good ones, I hope that Hollywood sees that not everything needs to be a (4 part) trilogy.
(but then there’s Dune…)
I had the same reaction with Marvel. I would watch almost every single movie the week it came out. They did extremely well with their Infinity Saga and capped it with an incredible conclusion. Infinity War/Endgame is a master stroke to what could’ve been an absolute disaster. Now that it’s over, the only MCU movies I’ve watched in theaters (let alone the first week) were No Way Home, Wakanda Forever, and GOTG3. The others I watched eventually at home (if at all).
Marvel is mostly fatigue with some laziness. It’s not that I don’t actually dislike any of it. I just don’t have the energy and desire to keep up all the time. A franchise shouldn’t be like a product. They’re trying to get more and more mindshare by putting out more and more in a shorter time. It’s clear it’s losing some quality in the writing (though even the “bad” ones still have redeeming qualities in my opinion, like I’m still glad I saw the Eternals, but it clearly is also flawed) due to not having the cohesiveness in story any longer. Look at the big hit video games that are trilogies. Horizon Zero Dawn and Forbidden West had like 5 years between them (though a DLC was released a year after ZD). Sure it’s a different medium, but it still shows that sometimes you need to ensure you put the work in and the effort, plus leave the audience wanting for a bit. Having something new all the time just makes it less interesting to begin with.
@echoplex21 After Endgame, the only Marvel movie that interested me was GotG3. Now that I’ve seen it I’m done.
EDIT: Removed unnecessary user tags
Well it turns out, if you give a shit and hire people that are passionate about the product they make, you make a good movie. And people like to watch good movies. That’s why dune worked. Because it was expertly done.
It’s not superhero fatigue or franchise fatigue. It’s bad writing fatigue. Seriously, I don’t know why Hollywood keeps choosing terrible writers for huge projects, but as long as they are doing that they are going to keep getting what they deserve.
And speaking of huge projects, from what I’ve heard Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny cost $295 million to make rather than 250. And that’s not counting publicity and marketing, which brings it to 400 million if not more. That means they need to make at least $800 million to break even. No matter how you slice their opening weekend, they are in huge trouble. And given that Elementals and The Little Mermaid both bombed hard along with most other Disney movies of the last few years, I’d say that Disney is in serious trouble too!
On the other hand, Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was rather well written, and from what I’ve heard it did rather well at the box office. Which is just more evidence that if you have a decently-written film the public WILL go and see it. We’re just avoiding crap, that’s all.
I’ll go out on a limb and say that hauling poor old Harrison Ford away from his bong and forcing him at the age of 80 to make shitty movies is tantamount to elder abuse. As for The Flash, coddling wannabe cult leader and mental defective Ezra Miller was just the icing on the cake. The movie was just badly written.
Frantic last minute reshoots and rewrites are a dead giveaway that something is seriously wrong with a production. But that that is happening so often in Hollywood in the last several years is clear evidence that Hollywood itself has completely lost their way. I don’t know if they can right that ship, and to be honest I don’t much care. If they won’t provide people with the good entertainment that they want, eventually somewhere else will. Maybe Bollywood or China.
As for The Flash, coddling wannabe cult leader and mental defective Ezra Miller was just the icing on the cake.
Hey, let me keep believing that it’s because people for once decided to be decent and skip it because of Ezra.
Seriously, I don’t know why Hollywood keeps choosing terrible writers for huge projects
Don’t worry, soon Hollywood won’t be choosing writers at all. (Thanks ChatGPT!)
(Obviously I agree that good writing is fundamental to the success of a movie, with few exceptions.)
which brings it to 400 million if not more. That means they need to make at least $800 million to break even.
400 million spent means 400 million to break even, no?
The rumors for indy 5 were that it needed something like 900 million to break even and a billion to make any profit.
With the new report saying it was a 325 million production and a minimum 100 million promotion budget, I tend to believe them.
No. Marketing typically equals production costs. So $400mm production + $400mm marketing = $800mm breakeven.
No, 400m includes marketing budget. Reason it typically needs double (actually more like 2.5 times the gross) is that studios only get around half of box office receipts.
Presumably 800 gross
This was the revelation I was waiting to unfold. The best indicator that good writing has legs and bad writing flops regardless of genre or franchise these days is definitely the recent Marvel box office runs.
Ant-Man: Quantamania was mediocre and as people saw it and relayed this sentiment it lost audiences and the box office intake dropped hard – no one wanted to spend money or time on it once word got out.
Guardians of the Galaxy: Vol 3 had the opposite happen with good writing and a rare occurrence where Disney let James Gunn do pretty much whatever he wanted. As people saw it and relayed the sentiment that it was well written and worth seeing in theaters, people flocked to it and gave it some of the strongest legs that continued to make box office money well after opening week.
Guardians 3 even got me into a theater for the first time in years because so many people said it was the one movie they recommended experiencing there instead of waiting for a Disney+ release. Well written movies are refreshing. We’re bored enough with the schlock regardless of genre, but give us something with real substance and it still has a chance to excite audiences to spread the word and make money.
If anyone is surprised by Indiana Jones failing then that is just sad. Name the last good Harrison Ford movie, I’ll wait. Erza Miller was suppose to be a good pick for the younger generation but Warner Brothers forgot that the younger generation doesn’t respond well to groomers and they also use TikTok. Word got out on him.
Black Adam, how many times can you watch the rock play the same character over and over. Fast X, no words needed.
Bad writers would be the main reason for failing films. Too many times you see 5-6 writers on a project, dead give away that it’s going to suck. Studios also like to play the blame game for bad decisions. Why didn’t anyone see the female led ghost busters? Sexism not the fact that the movie was unfunny and a train wreck.
A24 is one of the few studios that produce new and exciting movies. Something original. Even if it is something that has been done, they have a unique perspective, see parasite. Their movies always seem to over perform.
Speak for yourself. I’ve been majorly burned out on super hero movies.
As someone in the industry, the tentpole execs do not give a shit about writing or even quality. They just imagine $$$ and hate risk, so they double down on what they already know. It’s a dumb decision from the outside looking in, but they literally can’t see that. Also, in the last 10-15 years, screenwriting has developed more into a gig economy than a FT job, so even finding good writers and keeping them around is tough as hell.
Sometimes, I think I understand their place too. We’re talking about really big budgets here, and while I agree that it’s better to take risks so we can get amazing movies, I must imagine the dread the exec that greenlighted taika waititi thor love and thunder to do w/e he wanted.
In the end they let the director loose and still got a mediocre movie. (Maybe it was $$ successful? Somebody know?)
I don’t think it has anything to do with being franchise films. Studios just need to make good films and people will see them.
Spider-Man made 600m WW so far which isn’t too shabby. That has to contend with superhero fatigue as well as franchise fatigue.
I don’t think people are sick of the same old stuff. Indy flopped at the box office on the combination of a disappointing 4th movie and Disney’s trend of virtue signalling over good characterization and storytelling.
The Flash has the baggage of an unlikeable lead actor, plus the DCU is still all over the place and constantly rebooted. I honestly have no idea what to expect from the Flash, given previous DCU movies.
Someone who says virtue signaling unironically is the dumbest fuck in the room, no matter what room they’re in.
Wait, is having a woman in the movie virtue signaling? I haven’t seen it to know.
Only when it’s pointless.
Two words: female Bond.
Plenty of great movies with females and/or female leads. Ghost busters was not one of them.
There are only two genders: male and political.
It’s annoying that some people are so small-minded that they only think one style of filmmaking counts as “real cinema”. Just like there are different genres of film (like comedy, horror, drama, etc.), there’s room for different styles of film as well.
Too many people seem to think that just because two things can be projected on a screen, it’s reasonable to compare them. Some also believe that one kind of film is objectively better than another.
No. Neither of those things are true.
Films provide room for a wide range of creativity, whether they’re loud, big-budget extravaganzas with broad appeal, or quiet, intimate, narrowly focused films intended for a smaller audience - or something in between.
I don’t understand why there’s even an argument about which type of film is best. If you’re like me, you enjoy several different things, depending on your mood.
I think the issue is mostly about what is art?
Some of the big budget movies feel devoid of creativity and are more a product than a work of art. While I do agree with you that there is some art in those big budget, I think the issue lies in how we communicate a movie.
What is a “good” movie? That’s entirely subjective! A better approach would be to explain what you liked (or disliked) about it. Then we can have more productive conversations about it ahah
The only movie I was willing to see was the Mario movie and I still ended up torrenting it. Why should I go to a public theater, get ripped off at the ticket box and the food counter for some mild entertainment? Especially when I can cook up an entire meal at home and eat it in front of the TV.
Better food, more comfortable, private setting and most importantly, Cost effective. If you want to get people like me to go to a theater, the incentive better be worth it. I won’t open my wallet otherwise.
Plus I can pause to pee, vape away, set the volume on my surround sound exactly where I want, etc. And my 84” 4K DV/HDR+ OLED may not be a gigantic silver screen, but I enjoy it. Combined with 120TB of storage for Plex, I’m more than happy to wait for the bluray remux.
I used to fucking ADORE going to the movies - but nowadays, it needs to be a spectacular spectacular. Last movie I saw in the theater was Top Gun 2, and it was worthy.
