[On Reddit at reddit.com/r/redditalternatives, people are talking about a "Reddit 2.0."](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/14pbtpt/how_hard_can_it_be_for_one_of_you_nerds_to_simply/) What do you suggest?
What issues have you specifically noticed with this?
The issue I’ve noticed first and foremost is that there is more than one identically named group. Don’t tell me that rpg@kbin.social, rpg@lemmy.ml, and rpg@foo.bar are different communities. They’re identically named communities. I’d rather have as false positive of a gun user’s instance with threads about rocket-propelled grenades, rather than having to go to each group to browse. Don’t tell me to just use the “subscribed” view. That doesn’t pick up everything in a topic, nor does it help me to find those - again, identically named - communities on other servers. Whenever a new server comes online with an RPG community, they’ll be in their own corner. They can participate as foreigners with another group, but that’s not theirs. There’s no central place for hosting these communities. If there was a server set up just to host groups, and the rest were for users, that would make sense. I immediately grew tired, trying to find all of the communities related to my interests so I can subscribe to all. I did that back in the day, joining forums and setting up a personal homepage with frames. In theory anyone can join any group, but they have to find it first.
If devs and leaders of the ActivityPub community are going to continue pushing the idea that everyone can talk to everyone else, we absolutely need some form of community merging for identically-named communities. For instance, a kbin.social user should be able to subscribe to cooking and see posts from cooking@*.* , not just cooking@kbin.social. That’s a UX issue just as much as a technical one.
I wasn’t around this far back. Can you elaborate on this a bit? What’s the issue with “having mail on three or four non-multiplexed BBSes” ?
Back in those days, BBS mail was less “email” and more “text stored on server”. To get all of your mail from multiples, you had to connect to each of the servers in sequence, download your mail, and then read it offline and reply (any good BBS software would remember where itwas from, and offer to call back and send each message). Multiplexing meant that you could have a BBS in the NYC area, it would be able to contact and download from one in, say, PA or wherever, and they could each download threads and messages, aka federated content. The pain has been massively reduced over time, and I’m glad. My next point bounces off yours:
This I remember well. Sounds like you are trying to create an account on each instance and are constantly logging out of one and into the next to keep up on the latest posts and comments. This … is not really the way to do it.
You’re right, except in cases where I want a different psudonymity; my choice. In this case, I can’t check for new posts in, continuing with the same example, rpg@*.* without checking the group from each federated server. Posts are neither mirrored nor transcluded. That’s the point I’m getting at. I should be able to just open up m/rpg and have it cover all compatible groups.
I disagree with your latter point. kbin.social has hit a reasonable mass of users to have a strong local community and become a platform unto itself, running on kbin software. I’m not interested in a smaller community. I joined Reddit because it was the largest single-site community on the Web. I want the monolithic community, and I accept the costs that incurs, including ads or ad-first design. Right now, the fediverse is just fragments at the foot of the tower of Babel, each speaking a separate tongue, even if some are intelligible to others.
I don’t care about the difference between Mastodo, kbin, & Lemmy. They’re web software which are trying to replace a monolith, and have seen imited success. I don’t care about political leanings. I’m talking about a UX issue. If you want to defed from a site, and receive no more content, then so be it, that’s the right of an Admin.
The issue I’ve noticed first and foremost is that there is more than one identically named group. Don’t tell me that rpg@kbin.social, rpg@lemmy.ml, and rpg@foo.bar are different communities. They’re identically named communities.
Since lemmy terms a “community” as the same thing as a kbin magazine, but community can also have a more expansive meaning, for clarity I will refer to lemmy magazines and use community in it’s more expansive scope.
rpg@foo.bar isn’t a real thing obviously but is your standing for an rpg magazine on any other instance.
rpg@lemmy.ml and rpg@kbin.social appear to be two separate magazines, hosted on two difference instances, and owned and moderated by two separate groups of people, but about the same topic - role playing games. If you ignore the instance part of the name, then they have identical names - which makes sense because they cover the same topic.
There is a UX issue on kbin where the instance part of the name is hidden, but there are also kbin styles that fix this.
Getting fixated on the identical name part is getting hung up over a minor technicality. Remember that reddit has a similar issue with very similarly named subs, where you might have /r/X and then /r/TrueX and /r/XOriginal - something that was encouraged by reddit’s own policy, where instead of getting involved with a mod of a sub they would just encourage you to make your own sub.
I’d rather have as false positive of a gun user’s instance with threads about rocket-propelled grenades, rather than having to go to each group to browse
I think this is legitimate. This was solved on reddit with multireddits but kbin doesn’t have an equivalent yet.
If devs and leaders of the ActivityPub community are going to continue pushing the idea that everyone can talk to everyone else, we absolutely need some form of community merging for identically-named communities. For instance, a kbin.social user should be able to subscribe to cooking and see posts from cooking@. , not just cooking@kbin.social. That’s a UX issue just as much as a technical one.
Good point. Even if kbin/lemmy don’t support it, maybe we can get multimagazines working first at say an app level (like in Artemis).
Don’t tell me to just use the “subscribed” view. That doesn’t pick up everything in a topic, nor does it help me to find those - again, identically named - communities on other servers.
I wouldn’t as that’s not what that view is for. You want to view a multimagazine that covers a given topic like rpg rather than see your own subscriptions.
Whenever a new server comes online with an RPG community, they’ll be in their own corner.
They can participate as foreigners with another group, but that’s not theirs.
They can go as far as to mod magazines in another instance. How are they thus foreigners? This is the point of federation - that equal standing to view, post, contribute, moderate, etc across instances.
If there was a server set up just to host groups, and the rest were for users, that would make sense.
From a centralized, non-federated point of view.
There’s no central place for hosting these communities.
Because there is no need for that. I’d point to the example of r/blind - they continue to maintain their sub on reddit but officially the community is also available on their own lemmy instance as well as through their own website. One community, but not centralized anywhere.
I did that back in the day, joining forums and setting up a personal homepage with frames. In theory anyone can join any group, but they have to find it first.
With federation, you don’t have to go that far. Communicating across instances works automatically and you only need one account to do so, as opposed to creating a new account on each forum.
I immediately grew tired, trying to find all of the communities related to my interests so I can subscribe to all.
I’d recommend you check out some of the older posts on @RedditMIgration as there are lots of links to community (not magazine but community in the broader sense) run websites that try to solve this by listing all of the magazines on instances.
This is probably simpler and more fruitful than searching manually.
There’s still chaos in terms of instances and softwares. Until we all settle on one software that does the job, and until we have a way to have a single community again, Reddit remains the superior option. There is only one r/RPG, it works on Highlander rules - there can be only one. How many groups in the Fediverse named m/RPG or c/RPG are there? Why must each user be forced to answer that question?
That’s what would fix things for me; make the federation 100% behind-the-curtain so that I don’t have to think about it. I don’t care about the backend, I’m not hosting, the value to me is ad views only, not cash. I’d argue a solid 80% of users on corp-owned social media wouldn’t understand even if you simplify it. The fediverse/threadiverse is not a drop-in replacement for Reddit. Until it is, I’ll keep one foot in spez’s yard. If Meta’s Threads product does become an ActivityPub community and solves this issue, I’ll move there
.
Apologies for any typos or bad formatting, I ran up against the 5000 character limit, and tried to edit down - and the ‘more’ popup actually pops under the next comment in my browser. I’m sure I could fix it somehow, but I believe everything is still intelligible.
Apologies for any typos or bad formatting, I ran up against the 5000 character limit, and tried to edit down - and the ‘more’ popup actually pops under the next comment in my browser. I’m sure I could fix it somehow, but I believe everything is still intelligible.
No worries, it’s intelligble, and I get it as I got hit by the same thing.
I disagree with your latter point.
Okay, but I don’t think you’ve adaquately explained why.
kbin.social has hit a reasonable mass of users to have a strong local community and become a platform unto itself, running on kbin software.
But it can also join with older, more established communities on lemmy instances like lemmy.world and the two can share content with each other. From a kbin.social account I can fully participate on lemmy.world bar two exceptions (owning a lemmy.world magazine and being a lemmy.world admin), and the reverse is equally true. Hence why I view lemmy/kbin as essentially a single platform.
In your case, “local” seems to mean central to the server. But why is this an inherently important attribute?
I’m not interested in a smaller community.
Again, the point of federation - the different parts (instances) merge into a single platform and community. Each instance hosts a smaller part of the whole community, instead of needing a megacorp capable of hosting the entire one on a single set of servers. Ideally, seamlessly, but in practice I admit there are still some rough edges to work out (e.g. multimagazine support).
There might be a point here when dealing with magazine fragmentation - but reddit has the same problem to a degree and we can borrow their solution (multireddits/multimagazines) to resolve that issue here as well.
I joined Reddit because it was the largest single-site community on the Web. I want the monolithic community, and I accept the costs that incurs, including ads or ad-first design.
Yes, but why? This is the part that is yet to be explained. I think the dangers of single-site centralization have already been demonstrated (e.g. loss of 3rd party apps, mods losing their subs when protesting, folks getting permabans for no apparent reason or for obviously incorrect reasons, etc.)
I don’t care about the difference between Mastodo, kbin, & Lemmy. They’re web software which are trying to replace a monolith, and have seen imited success.
Following this to the extreme, you shouldn’t want to use either twitter or reddit, because they can’t talk to each other. Right? (Okay, single sign on is possible, but after that you still have to interact with their websites and apps separately.)
The fediverse lacks the first mover advantage of being born in the ninties or early aughts and also lacks big megacorp backing, but it has seen bigger growth than single site replacements like Squabbles or Tildes, and I suspect federation is a big driver of the difference there.
Right now, the fediverse is just fragments at the foot of the tower of Babel, each speaking a separate tongue, even if some are intelligible to others.
Except that they all speak the same language (ActivityPub) and differ from big monoliths like twitter and reddit that can’t talk to anyone else. So from an intelligibility perspective they are a step up.
I don’t care about political leanings. I’m talking about a UX issue. If you want to defed from a site, and receive no more content, then so be it, that’s the right of an Admin.
That’s what would fix things for me; make the federation 100% behind-the-curtain so that I don’t have to think about it. I don’t care about the backend, I’m not hosting, the value to me is ad views only, not cash.
Again, sounds like if we did have multimagazine support (as I described earlier) then things would be fixed for you. If I’ve missed anything, please detail that out.
The fediverse/threadiverse is not a drop-in replacement for Reddit.
So actually there’s an active effort to re-expose lemmy’s API as reddit’s own API (allowing folks to use things like PRAW with lemmy and even kbin thanks to the magic of federation). In theory third party apps could simply point to a server hosting this API, instead of reddit’s site, and just work with the fediverse.
I know that’s not what you meant, but that is pretty drop-in.
Until it is, I’ll keep one foot in spez’s yard. If Meta’s Threads product does become an ActivityPub community and solves this issue, I’ll move there
It likely would because it seems like it won’t federate with the rest of us and just either be a single instance or at best a group of instances controlled by fb that only federate with each other. Either way the number of duplicately named magazines is strictly limited.
. I’d argue a solid 80% of users on corp-owned social media wouldn’t understand even if you simplify it.
To get all of your mail from multiples, you had to connect to each of the servers in sequence, download your mail, and then read it offline and reply
Multiplexing meant that you could have a BBS in the NYC area, it would be able to contact and download from one in, say, PA or wherever, and they could each download threads and messages, aka federated content.
Then I’d argue that the fediverse looks more like the multiplexed BBS. I mean, federated is literally in the name. We don’t have the pain that comes from using non-multiplexed BBSes here.
You’re right, except in cases where I want a different psudonymity; my choice.
No, I’m still right in this case. Your alts can still take advantage of federation and subscribe to magazines on other instances and reply and so forth.
In this case, I can’t check for new posts in, continuing with the same example, rpg@. without checking the group from each federated server.
No, not true. That also applies in the “original” case (where you only have one account in the fediverse). This is the multimagazine/multireddit thing already touched upon above. That’s legit, but let’s assume for the sake of argument these three points: 1) there is a working version of Artemis (the kbin app), 2) it supports multimagazines, 3) there’s a json format from the websites that list magazines that can be imported into Artemis to automatically generate a multimagazine for the user that’s local to the smartphone.
The above problem is solved, as you can use that Artemis, passing it the magazing listing website, and get a multimagazine set up with all the different RPG magazines. Maybe Artemis even supports optionally autoreloading so as new RPG magazines are setup (either in new instances, or someone makes a /m/TrueRPG on an instance that already has /m/rpg) your multimagazine is automatically updated.
Posts are neither mirrored nor transcluded.
They are to the instances. Some people are going farther and trying to mirror articles between different magazines using bots. However, I kind of feel the multimagazine feature would be enough to check this box.
That’s the point I’m getting at. I should be able to just open up m/rpg and have it cover all compatible groups.
We’re not there yet, but it’s also not too far off.
That said, I find your view that multimagazines are essential to be interesting. I only first heard about multireddits only after I’d permanently parted ways with reddit.
There’s still chaos in terms of instances and softwares.
This is actually a good thing. Monoculture is bad, diversity is good.
Until we all settle on one software that does the job, and until we have a way to have a single community again,
Too easy for a single disease to wipe things out in that case.
Reddit remains the superior option
Where one can be permabanned at random, with a non-functional appeals process where it’s virtually impossible to get ahold of an actual human? Where you can have the ownership of your sub that you spent years working on seized and taken away and handed over to someone else?
I’d argue that reddit has a different disease, and it’s showing why both centralization and monoculture are bad (third party apps being killed off because they never supported anything but reddit itself is an example of the latter).
There is only one r/RPG, it works on Highlander rules - there can be only one.
You’re kidding, right? How many subs in reddit have RPG in the name and actually broach the same topic? r/rpg_gamers , r/RPGdesign, r/TabletopRPG, r/StrateyRpg, r/RPGCreation, r/solorpgplay? This last one doesn’t have rpg in the name, but - r/Solo_Roleplaying?
If you are really going to push that reddit only has one sub for the role playing game community, then I’m going to need you to explain to me in detail how each of the above subs is different from r/RPG and from each other, and why they are a separate community from any other sub with rpg in the name.
How many groups in the Fediverse named m/RPG or c/RPG are there? Why must each user be forced to answer that question?
Dunno, but how many subs in reddit that have rpg in the name are there? Why must each redditor be forced to answer that question? (The answer to the second is they don’t need to answer that question at all - either on reddit or on the fediverse.)
The issue I’ve noticed first and foremost is that there is more than one identically named group. Don’t tell me that rpg@kbin.social, rpg@lemmy.ml, and rpg@foo.bar are different communities. They’re identically named communities. I’d rather have as false positive of a gun user’s instance with threads about rocket-propelled grenades, rather than having to go to each group to browse. Don’t tell me to just use the “subscribed” view. That doesn’t pick up everything in a topic, nor does it help me to find those - again, identically named - communities on other servers. Whenever a new server comes online with an RPG community, they’ll be in their own corner. They can participate as foreigners with another group, but that’s not theirs. There’s no central place for hosting these communities. If there was a server set up just to host groups, and the rest were for users, that would make sense. I immediately grew tired, trying to find all of the communities related to my interests so I can subscribe to all. I did that back in the day, joining forums and setting up a personal homepage with frames. In theory anyone can join any group, but they have to find it first.
If devs and leaders of the ActivityPub community are going to continue pushing the idea that everyone can talk to everyone else, we absolutely need some form of community merging for identically-named communities. For instance, a kbin.social user should be able to subscribe to cooking and see posts from cooking@*.* , not just cooking@kbin.social. That’s a UX issue just as much as a technical one.
Back in those days, BBS mail was less “email” and more “text stored on server”. To get all of your mail from multiples, you had to connect to each of the servers in sequence, download your mail, and then read it offline and reply (any good BBS software would remember where itwas from, and offer to call back and send each message). Multiplexing meant that you could have a BBS in the NYC area, it would be able to contact and download from one in, say, PA or wherever, and they could each download threads and messages, aka federated content. The pain has been massively reduced over time, and I’m glad. My next point bounces off yours:
You’re right, except in cases where I want a different psudonymity; my choice. In this case, I can’t check for new posts in, continuing with the same example, rpg@*.* without checking the group from each federated server. Posts are neither mirrored nor transcluded. That’s the point I’m getting at. I should be able to just open up m/rpg and have it cover all compatible groups.
I disagree with your latter point. kbin.social has hit a reasonable mass of users to have a strong local community and become a platform unto itself, running on kbin software. I’m not interested in a smaller community. I joined Reddit because it was the largest single-site community on the Web. I want the monolithic community, and I accept the costs that incurs, including ads or ad-first design. Right now, the fediverse is just fragments at the foot of the tower of Babel, each speaking a separate tongue, even if some are intelligible to others.
I don’t care about the difference between Mastodo, kbin, & Lemmy. They’re web software which are trying to replace a monolith, and have seen imited success. I don’t care about political leanings. I’m talking about a UX issue. If you want to defed from a site, and receive no more content, then so be it, that’s the right of an Admin.
{1/2}
Since lemmy terms a “community” as the same thing as a kbin magazine, but community can also have a more expansive meaning, for clarity I will refer to lemmy magazines and use community in it’s more expansive scope.
rpg@foo.bar isn’t a real thing obviously but is your standing for an rpg magazine on any other instance.
rpg@lemmy.ml and rpg@kbin.social appear to be two separate magazines, hosted on two difference instances, and owned and moderated by two separate groups of people, but about the same topic - role playing games. If you ignore the instance part of the name, then they have identical names - which makes sense because they cover the same topic.
There is a UX issue on kbin where the instance part of the name is hidden, but there are also kbin styles that fix this.
Getting fixated on the identical name part is getting hung up over a minor technicality. Remember that reddit has a similar issue with very similarly named subs, where you might have /r/X and then /r/TrueX and /r/XOriginal - something that was encouraged by reddit’s own policy, where instead of getting involved with a mod of a sub they would just encourage you to make your own sub.
I think this is legitimate. This was solved on reddit with multireddits but kbin doesn’t have an equivalent yet.
Good point. Even if kbin/lemmy don’t support it, maybe we can get multimagazines working first at say an app level (like in Artemis).
I wouldn’t as that’s not what that view is for. You want to view a multimagazine that covers a given topic like rpg rather than see your own subscriptions.
They can go as far as to mod magazines in another instance. How are they thus foreigners? This is the point of federation - that equal standing to view, post, contribute, moderate, etc across instances.
From a centralized, non-federated point of view.
Because there is no need for that. I’d point to the example of r/blind - they continue to maintain their sub on reddit but officially the community is also available on their own lemmy instance as well as through their own website. One community, but not centralized anywhere.
With federation, you don’t have to go that far. Communicating across instances works automatically and you only need one account to do so, as opposed to creating a new account on each forum.
I’d recommend you check out some of the older posts on @RedditMIgration as there are lots of links to community (not magazine but community in the broader sense) run websites that try to solve this by listing all of the magazines on instances.
This is probably simpler and more fruitful than searching manually.
{2/2}
There’s still chaos in terms of instances and softwares. Until we all settle on one software that does the job, and until we have a way to have a single community again, Reddit remains the superior option. There is only one r/RPG, it works on Highlander rules - there can be only one. How many groups in the Fediverse named m/RPG or c/RPG are there? Why must each user be forced to answer that question?
That’s what would fix things for me; make the federation 100% behind-the-curtain so that I don’t have to think about it. I don’t care about the backend, I’m not hosting, the value to me is ad views only, not cash. I’d argue a solid 80% of users on corp-owned social media wouldn’t understand even if you simplify it. The fediverse/threadiverse is not a drop-in replacement for Reddit. Until it is, I’ll keep one foot in spez’s yard. If Meta’s Threads product does become an ActivityPub community and solves this issue, I’ll move there
.
{3 / 2}
Apologies for any typos or bad formatting, I ran up against the 5000 character limit, and tried to edit down - and the ‘more’ popup actually pops under the next comment in my browser. I’m sure I could fix it somehow, but I believe everything is still intelligible.
No worries, it’s intelligble, and I get it as I got hit by the same thing.
Okay, but I don’t think you’ve adaquately explained why.
But it can also join with older, more established communities on lemmy instances like lemmy.world and the two can share content with each other. From a kbin.social account I can fully participate on lemmy.world bar two exceptions (owning a lemmy.world magazine and being a lemmy.world admin), and the reverse is equally true. Hence why I view lemmy/kbin as essentially a single platform.
In your case, “local” seems to mean central to the server. But why is this an inherently important attribute?
Again, the point of federation - the different parts (instances) merge into a single platform and community. Each instance hosts a smaller part of the whole community, instead of needing a megacorp capable of hosting the entire one on a single set of servers. Ideally, seamlessly, but in practice I admit there are still some rough edges to work out (e.g. multimagazine support).
There might be a point here when dealing with magazine fragmentation - but reddit has the same problem to a degree and we can borrow their solution (multireddits/multimagazines) to resolve that issue here as well.
Yes, but why? This is the part that is yet to be explained. I think the dangers of single-site centralization have already been demonstrated (e.g. loss of 3rd party apps, mods losing their subs when protesting, folks getting permabans for no apparent reason or for obviously incorrect reasons, etc.)
Following this to the extreme, you shouldn’t want to use either twitter or reddit, because they can’t talk to each other. Right? (Okay, single sign on is possible, but after that you still have to interact with their websites and apps separately.)
The fediverse lacks the first mover advantage of being born in the ninties or early aughts and also lacks big megacorp backing, but it has seen bigger growth than single site replacements like Squabbles or Tildes, and I suspect federation is a big driver of the difference there.
Except that they all speak the same language (ActivityPub) and differ from big monoliths like twitter and reddit that can’t talk to anyone else. So from an intelligibility perspective they are a step up.
Seconded.
Again, sounds like if we did have multimagazine support (as I described earlier) then things would be fixed for you. If I’ve missed anything, please detail that out.
So actually there’s an active effort to re-expose lemmy’s API as reddit’s own API (allowing folks to use things like PRAW with lemmy and even kbin thanks to the magic of federation). In theory third party apps could simply point to a server hosting this API, instead of reddit’s site, and just work with the fediverse.
I know that’s not what you meant, but that is pretty drop-in.
It likely would because it seems like it won’t federate with the rest of us and just either be a single instance or at best a group of instances controlled by fb that only federate with each other. Either way the number of duplicately named magazines is strictly limited.
That, sadly, I find myself in agreement with.
Then I’d argue that the fediverse looks more like the multiplexed BBS. I mean, federated is literally in the name. We don’t have the pain that comes from using non-multiplexed BBSes here.
No, I’m still right in this case. Your alts can still take advantage of federation and subscribe to magazines on other instances and reply and so forth.
No, not true. That also applies in the “original” case (where you only have one account in the fediverse). This is the multimagazine/multireddit thing already touched upon above. That’s legit, but let’s assume for the sake of argument these three points: 1) there is a working version of Artemis (the kbin app), 2) it supports multimagazines, 3) there’s a json format from the websites that list magazines that can be imported into Artemis to automatically generate a multimagazine for the user that’s local to the smartphone.
The above problem is solved, as you can use that Artemis, passing it the magazing listing website, and get a multimagazine set up with all the different RPG magazines. Maybe Artemis even supports optionally autoreloading so as new RPG magazines are setup (either in new instances, or someone makes a /m/TrueRPG on an instance that already has /m/rpg) your multimagazine is automatically updated.
They are to the instances. Some people are going farther and trying to mirror articles between different magazines using bots. However, I kind of feel the multimagazine feature would be enough to check this box.
We’re not there yet, but it’s also not too far off.
That said, I find your view that multimagazines are essential to be interesting. I only first heard about multireddits only after I’d permanently parted ways with reddit.
This is actually a good thing. Monoculture is bad, diversity is good.
Too easy for a single disease to wipe things out in that case.
Where one can be permabanned at random, with a non-functional appeals process where it’s virtually impossible to get ahold of an actual human? Where you can have the ownership of your sub that you spent years working on seized and taken away and handed over to someone else?
I’d argue that reddit has a different disease, and it’s showing why both centralization and monoculture are bad (third party apps being killed off because they never supported anything but reddit itself is an example of the latter).
If you are really going to push that reddit only has one sub for the role playing game community, then I’m going to need you to explain to me in detail how each of the above subs is different from r/RPG and from each other, and why they are a separate community from any other sub with rpg in the name.
Dunno, but how many subs in reddit that have rpg in the name are there? Why must each redditor be forced to answer that question? (The answer to the second is they don’t need to answer that question at all - either on reddit or on the fediverse.)