The other side of that debate is that … the outside influence could work with Africa to make the continent self sufficient and capable on its own. Several studies and research has shown that if properly set up and organized, the African continent has more than enough resources to produce its own food supply, clean water supply and energy production.
Unfortunately, instead of the outside world helping Africa to get to this point … the world instead uses Africa as just another place to exploit and make money out of. In the short sighted vision of the first world … it’s more lucrative to make a bunch of money now by taking advantage of poor dying people than it is to help them become productive members of the global economy.
It’s a prime example of how as a civilization we build and maintain our world on exploitation, coercion and death
Unfortunately, instead of the outside world helping Africa to get to this point … the world instead uses Africa as just another place to exploit and make money out of. In the short sighted vision of the first world … it’s more lucrative to make a bunch of money now by taking advantage of poor dying people than it is to help them become productive members of the global economy.
I would argue it’s more complex than that. The very conditions created by European colonization have resulted in extreme instability and corruption in the resulting, mostly-arbitrarily drawn states, which heavily discourages investment from rational (though amoral) actors. It’s not that the rest of the world market doesn’t want Africa to be more “Developing Southeast Asia” than “Place we get raw resources from”, it’s that the conditions European colonization foisted upon it make getting there from this point very difficult.
Honestly, I’m not sure that there is an optimal solution there. All I’m certain about is that the European powers didn’t give a shit about anything other than resolving their own claims in an ideal fashion when releasing their colonial vassals piecemeal.
Honestly, I’m not sure that there is an optimal solution there
Well that’s why I’m asking the question. If you look at Goma and Rwanda, for example, tribes were putting a genocide on eachother before the Europeans arrived. They were doing a genocide after the Europeans left. They are doing a genocide on eachother right now when everybody pulled their hands off. At which point can you blame the genocide on the tribes themselves?
Rwandan genocide was very much fueled by Belgian racial policies.
My point isn’t that Africa would be a utopia if the European powers hadn’t carved it up like a toddler with a birthday cake, my point is only that the borders as formed in most of Subsaharan Africa are completely arbitrary divisions which rely more on conflicting colonial interests than realities of the people on the ground.
Take a look at Nigeria if you want an example of how conflicting ethnic groups artificially forced together by an attempt of colonial powers to maintain some measure of control turns out. There’s a reason most countries in Europe were either ethnically dominated empires, or ethnically homogenous nation-states - and likewise, there is a reason why European imperialists put great effort into dividing subject peoples abroad.
The ability to construct and sustain a state, or any community, is based on shared values and cultural memes.
Or do you just want to point out the bad and throw in the towel on the question of how it can be fixed?
Man, that’s for wiser fucking people than me. I’m not going to pretend to know the best outline to split up and combine African ethnicities within contiguous borders. I studied pre-modern European history, not post-independence African geopolitics. I don’t have the expertise necessary even for a rough sketch.
And honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed at this point, at least not across all so-afflicted countries. The damage is largely done. In the past 60 years, institutions have been established, internal migration has intensified, nationalism cultivated, etc. Most of Africa is probably pretty stuck with the problem, and has the unenviable task of making disparate peoples cooperate within a single polity. It is possible - but it is also difficult (see: India).
This guy, “why can’t you articulate how to undo 600 years of exploration and genicide that was done against one continent?!”
Just so you know, yes there was war bs ethnic cleansing before Europeans arrived but the scale was taken to 100 because of the Europeans. And the genicides that happened after were because of the previous occupation. If you want answers to when it’s the Africans fault, maybe read many studies, books, and reports on it instead of asking some guy on the internet. Once again, it’s very likely you are older than the governments currently in Africa. Governments that had to pick up the pieces after many axis powers collapsed, or when allied powers pulled out during the 2008 economic crisis, or even some today that still are shadow controlled by western nations / China.
Nation States are just another tool of the powerful to subjugate, a means to keep us divided as if we weren’t the same species.
Instead we see being a united species as some evil conspiracy, which is why I’m not really a fan of our species anymore. We’d rather have a chance of beating our fellow man than equitably sharing the fruits of this world. We don’t love the person on the other side of the table, we want to screw them and get more. That disgusts me, personally.
The other side of that debate is that … the outside influence could work with Africa to make the continent self sufficient and capable on its own. Several studies and research has shown that if properly set up and organized, the African continent has more than enough resources to produce its own food supply, clean water supply and energy production.
Unfortunately, instead of the outside world helping Africa to get to this point … the world instead uses Africa as just another place to exploit and make money out of. In the short sighted vision of the first world … it’s more lucrative to make a bunch of money now by taking advantage of poor dying people than it is to help them become productive members of the global economy.
It’s a prime example of how as a civilization we build and maintain our world on exploitation, coercion and death
I would argue it’s more complex than that. The very conditions created by European colonization have resulted in extreme instability and corruption in the resulting, mostly-arbitrarily drawn states, which heavily discourages investment from rational (though amoral) actors. It’s not that the rest of the world market doesn’t want Africa to be more “Developing Southeast Asia” than “Place we get raw resources from”, it’s that the conditions European colonization foisted upon it make getting there from this point very difficult.
Which African states do you think should be redrawn?
Honestly, I’m not sure that there is an optimal solution there. All I’m certain about is that the European powers didn’t give a shit about anything other than resolving their own claims in an ideal fashion when releasing their colonial vassals piecemeal.
Well that’s why I’m asking the question. If you look at Goma and Rwanda, for example, tribes were putting a genocide on eachother before the Europeans arrived. They were doing a genocide after the Europeans left. They are doing a genocide on eachother right now when everybody pulled their hands off. At which point can you blame the genocide on the tribes themselves?
Rwandan genocide was very much fueled by Belgian racial policies.
My point isn’t that Africa would be a utopia if the European powers hadn’t carved it up like a toddler with a birthday cake, my point is only that the borders as formed in most of Subsaharan Africa are completely arbitrary divisions which rely more on conflicting colonial interests than realities of the people on the ground.
Take a look at Nigeria if you want an example of how conflicting ethnic groups artificially forced together by an attempt of colonial powers to maintain some measure of control turns out. There’s a reason most countries in Europe were either ethnically dominated empires, or ethnically homogenous nation-states - and likewise, there is a reason why European imperialists put great effort into dividing subject peoples abroad.
The ability to construct and sustain a state, or any community, is based on shared values and cultural memes.
But that’s why I’m asking the question. Can you provide a map for how Africa should be divided?
Or do you just want to point out the bad and throw in the towel on the question of how it can be fixed?
Man, that’s for wiser fucking people than me. I’m not going to pretend to know the best outline to split up and combine African ethnicities within contiguous borders. I studied pre-modern European history, not post-independence African geopolitics. I don’t have the expertise necessary even for a rough sketch.
And honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed at this point, at least not across all so-afflicted countries. The damage is largely done. In the past 60 years, institutions have been established, internal migration has intensified, nationalism cultivated, etc. Most of Africa is probably pretty stuck with the problem, and has the unenviable task of making disparate peoples cooperate within a single polity. It is possible - but it is also difficult (see: India).
Ok, thanks for your honesty
This guy, “why can’t you articulate how to undo 600 years of exploration and genicide that was done against one continent?!”
Just so you know, yes there was war bs ethnic cleansing before Europeans arrived but the scale was taken to 100 because of the Europeans. And the genicides that happened after were because of the previous occupation. If you want answers to when it’s the Africans fault, maybe read many studies, books, and reports on it instead of asking some guy on the internet. Once again, it’s very likely you are older than the governments currently in Africa. Governments that had to pick up the pieces after many axis powers collapsed, or when allied powers pulled out during the 2008 economic crisis, or even some today that still are shadow controlled by western nations / China.
Can you support your claim that ‘the ethnic cleansing was taken to 100 because of the Europeans’ ?
It’s a figure of speech…
Nation States are just another tool of the powerful to subjugate, a means to keep us divided as if we weren’t the same species.
Instead we see being a united species as some evil conspiracy, which is why I’m not really a fan of our species anymore. We’d rather have a chance of beating our fellow man than equitably sharing the fruits of this world. We don’t love the person on the other side of the table, we want to screw them and get more. That disgusts me, personally.