At work we somehow landed on the topic of how many holes a human has, which then evolved into a heated discussion on the classic question of how many holes does a straw have.
I think it’s two, but some people are convinced that it’s one, which I just don’t understand. What are your thoughts?
How many holes does a donut have?
Now make the donut higher. A lot higher. Now you have a donut-tunnel. Now make the walls thinner. Now shrink it. Now you have a straw.
One hole.
They did the math!
Now take that straw and tie a knot in the middle of it.
That doesn’t change the topology though. Or at least you can’t without it no longer being a straw.
A straw is the product of a circle and an interval. Either the knot doesn’t fully seal the interval, meaning it’s topology is maintained, or you completely seal the straw, changing it from 1 long interval to 2 separate intervals, changing the object entirely.
In this situation, the straw would not be completely sealed. It is clearly inefficient, but technically there exists a path for which there is a level of force that could applied that would make the straw function.
This seems overly reductionist to the point where I could just as easily describe my mouth and my anus as the same hole.
Now you’re getting it!
Yeah, that’s a concept that gets covered extensively in anatomy, immunology, and microbiology. It’s called “the donut model”. This is not a joke. It clearly shows how your digestive system is exposed to the outside world, similar to skin. You can obviously see why this is important immunologically, since germs can just get into the mouth/butthole in a way that they can’t penetrate skin.
It’s one long hole.
It’s perfectly reductionist. You have defined our biology in exactly the same way medical texts do.
that is actually the case. there is an unimpeded path from your mouth to your anus
Yes. It’s called the gastrointestinal tract.
Because they are the same hole. Welcome to topology
Take a sealed tin can. Punch a hole in it. Punch another hole in it. You now have one hole.
No, but that’s two holes. And it’s because the holes are not connect by a single, unbroken cylinder. It’s the material at the edge of those holes and the 90° turn at the corners that makes the holes disconnected.
The edges and corners mean nothing for the purposes of counting holes. Counting holes is a concept of topology that relies on continuous deformation. All non-opening features of the object just get squished and stretched away in the process of identifying holes.
For the purpose of counting holes a can with two openings punched into it is equivalent to a donut which we know has only one hole.
I understand geometrically they have the same number of holes but in my head straws still have two holes because they have an “inside” so both entrances to the inside have to be a hole.
That’s because a straw has two more holes than a sphere.
1 ‘hole’ if you can call it that. Imagine if the straw started life as a solid cylinder and you had to bore out the inside to turn it into a straw: if that were the case, you would drill 1 hole all the way through it.
Another analogy is a donut. Would you agree that a donut has just 1 hole? I would say yes. Now stretch that donut vertically untill you have a giant cylinder with a hole in the middle. That’s basically now just a straw. The fact you stretched it doesn’t increase the number of holes it has.
You just blew my mind. Thanks.
So as you begin to bore, that is one hole. But when you go through the other side, you have in fact made two holes. I think a donut can actually be thought of either as one hole or two holes, or more correctly; two holes that are the same hole.
Back to the straw; if you make another hole in the side of the straw half way up, would it still have one hole? Or two holes? Or three holes?
A bit like thinking of the human digestive tract, most of us would agree that your mouth is a different hole to your anus, but we agree that they are in two ends of the same system
A strownut if you will
I would eat that
But here’s the thing. Take that doughnut and stretch it until it’s a cube with two square cutouts in it. Stretch in some of the inner walls. Now you have a house, with a door and a window. Now: does the house have two holes - a door and a window - or does it have one hole?
Topologically, still one
Locally has two extrinsic holes, that is holes relative to things outside and inside the house, globally has one intrinsic hole. We say that the door is a hole respect to the wall no to the house itself. So both the door and the window are holes locally. But we never say the house has holes, we talk about walls and ceilings so globally that house has 1 hole. Another way of thinking it is that if the house can be deformed into a filled doughnut then it can be compressed to a circle and that’s the definition of a 1-hole.
Imagine if the straw started life as a solid cylinder and you had to bore out the inside to turn it into a straw
This would mean a straw has a hole, yes. It would be like a donut indeed - donuts are first whole, then have the hole punched out of them. This meets a dictionary definition of a hole (a perforation). A subtractive process has removed an area, leaving a hole.
But straws aren’t manufactured this way, their solid bits are additively formed around the empty area. I personally don’t think this meets the definition.
Your topological argument is strong though - both a donut and straw share the same topological feature, but when we use these math abstractions, things can be a bit weird. For instance, a hollow torus (imagine a creme-filled donut that has not yet had its shell penetrated to fill it) has two holes. One might not expect this since it looks like it still only obviously has one, but the “inner torus” consisting of negative space (that represents the hollow) is itself a valid topological hole as well.
“This meets a dictionary definition of a hole.
But straws aren’t manufactured this way, their solid bits are additively formed around the empty area. I personally don’t think this meets the definition.”
By this logic, how I make a doughnut changes whether it has a hole.
If I make a long string of dough and then connect the ends together and cook it (a forming process) it doesn’t have a hole.
If I cut a hole in a dough disc and then cook (a perforation) it has a hole. Even though the final result is identical?
On the matter of the doughnut: If you make them at home, you’re almost always just rolling a cylinder and then making it a circle. I have never actually punched a hole out of a doughnut. That would mess up the toroidal shape.
But also: So you’re saying a straw has 0 holes?
Maybe she’s not, but I am. An intact straw has zero holes. If you stick a pin in the side, it has one. If you stick a pin all the way through, it has two.
What if you bored from both ends of the cylinder until they meet in the middle?
There would be two holes until, at the moment of contact, it becomes one?
Does the method with which the straw shaft is created influence the number of holes it has?
Not only that, but if you pinch it in the middle until the passage closes, could it still be called just one hole?
No, topologically there would be no holes until the moment of contact. This is the same as there being no hole when drilling through from only one side until the surface on the opposing side is broken.
Yes, but topologists can’t tell a doughnut from a coffee cup so they’re clearly insane.
So how does one “dig a hole?” Straight to China? Or whatever is opposite of you?
Topologically, yes. Buy you could also go down a bit, make a lateral tunnel, then pop back up.
So what you are saying is, if I dig a hole that doesn’t go anywhere, then that’s not really a hole?
In topology, yes. It must go through to count.
That’s fascinating. So most of what I would call “holes” are what, in topographical terms, hollows? Depressions?
Topologically, yes. Coincidentally, “Hole to Nowhere” is the best Talking Heads parody album.
Heh I will have to check that out!
Mathematically It’s one. Think of a disk, like a CD, does it have one hole or two? One, right? Now imagine you can make it thicker, I.e. increase the height, and then reduce the outer radius… Making it progressively more straw-like. At what point does it stop having 1 hole and begin to have 2?
Topologically they’re the same shape.
I’m sure Matt Parker has a video on this topic in YouTube. Here
The specific field is topology fyi
If I dig a hole, how many holes is it?
Holes in the hole? 0
Holes in the top layer of the ground? 1
Zero unless you reach Australia
A regular straw has zero holes. The central cavity, through which beverages flow, is not part of the straw, and hence it’s endpoints are not holes in the straw.
A straw is topologically the same as a donut. It absolutely has one hole.
Just realized humans are topological donuts
You guys are all getting down voted and this misses out on the pure entertainment value of these comments
Thought so, donut.
If Gordon Ramsey were a cartographer…
Removed by mod
Almost. First you need to choose the minimum size of a hole. If you define a hole as something just a bit larger than skin pores, a human has 7 holes. Even when defining a hole as something around 1cm, you have at least 3 holes (your nostrils, mouth and anus share one cavity).
Doughnuts don’t have holes, “donutholes” notwithstanding. A doughnut is a torus. If you poke through the side of a doughnut, then it has a hole.
Take a pancake. Put a hole in it. It’s now a torus.
Sure, but it’s a pancake with a hole in it. Pancakes ought to be disks (which is, topologically, a squashed sphere).
If you put a hole in a doughnut it is no longer a torus. A hole deforms the manifold of an object.
by that logic, holes do not exist. holes are by definition not part of the material.
But they are (edit: holes are) present where you’d expect the material of the object. No one expects a straw to be a solid cylinder, ergo, the central cavity is not a hole.
I see, so like, if it identifies as a hole it’s not a hole? So a cheese grater has no holes. But if I jam a screwdriver through the cheese grater, now it has a hole? What if I like the new hole and want to consider it a part of the cheese grater? Do we hold a vote on which hole identifies as a property of the object? Or do objects self-identify? I don’t speak cheese grater, this is going to get difficult.
That’s not how it works. It’s pretty unanimously understood that a donut has a hole, yet nobody expects material to be there, even though there are donuts without holes.
There are no straws without a hole. A straw without a hole is a stick. The hole is an integral part of the straw.
Classic topology question. Absolutely one hole; it goes all the way through.
Of course, connotatively, two is a fine assessment, but not in topology.
How many holes does a donut have? Now just try to image the real difference between a straw and a donut. Is there one, aside from deliciousness?
Deliciousness here is only limited by bravery.
Taste. Edibility is relevant to bravery, not enjoyability.
That’s nice but topology is quite removed from everyday language. A hole in the ground is a hole.
I completely agree. That’s what I’m saying. Topologically if you dig into the earth with a shovel, it hasn’t changed at all; there is no hole, but connotatively there clearly is.
And what I’m saying is that answering this with topology is quite misplaced because topology explicitly doesn’t deal with physical objects, ever. It uses very specific abstract definitions which cannot apply to everyday life.
That is not to say it isn’t useful. It’s an amazing discipline with wide applications, but answering questions about the properties of physical objects is not its intended use.
I was explicit that there are two topics here. You seem to agree. Why you think bringing up topology when asking a famous topology question that people like Riemann have been talking about for a few hundred years is just weird. That’s like saying you can’t talk about geometry when asking how many sides a house has. Feels very akshually.
A hole that goes all the way through earth is still one hole
It has two exits, one hole.
If you drill a hole in a block of wood you create one hole not two, note that whether or not the drill exits the opposite side, only one hole has been created despite differing numbers of exits.
What if you drill through a book?
I think its more or less the same, spacially. I think the distinction breaks down more with like a wiffleball, which I’d argue is one hole with many exits.
ah fuck now i’m gonna be thinking about this all night
Is the book closed before and then being opened after? The state of the book matters (and possibly the pages!)
You’ll be banned from the bookstore
how many holes does a donut have? one. a straw is just a tall plastic donut.
two holes… smdh… kids these days
What if you tie a knot in the straw? Still one?
if it doesn’t go all the way through anymore, is it even a hole? zero.
Just copying my response to another comment asking the same:
That doesn’t change the topology though. Or at least you can’t without it no longer being a straw.
A straw is the product of a circle and an interval. Either the knot doesn’t fully seal the interval, meaning it’s topology is maintained, or you completely seal the straw, changing it from 1 long interval to 2 separate intervals, changing the object entirely.
In this situation, the straw would not be completely sealed. It is clearly inefficient, but technically there exists a path for which there is a level of force that could applied that would make the straw function.
Just tried it… I can’t suck liquid through.
Thats because you have weak-ass lips. Your mom could do it no problem.
Just so we are all on the same page here… Y’all down voted science, you plebs
@RealNooshie Two.
I thought one hole intuitively, then I started thinking… what about those y shaped straws or medical hoses that split… one hole? Two holes? Three?
A Y straw has 2 holes, according to topology.
If you want to learn more about topology, I think Vsauce’s video “How many holes does a human have?” explains it pretty well
I came here to link that video
doing the lord’s work
Relevant background music for your pondering. Fitting background music while you ponder
A hole.
A straw has a hole. 😂
I believe the confusion lies in the word “holes” when you are thinking about openings or exits. Just my 2 cents.
Yes, I agree. “Hole” is poorly defined. This isn’t a technical question about straws but a technical question about language.
That’s the gist of practically all philosophical thought experiments.
When is a heap of sand no longer a heap? I dunno, define “heap” and there’s your answer. It’s not going to be a useful answer though because the rest of the world doesn’t define the word with enough precision for the question to be meaningful in the first place. There is no authority on Earth that can do that. You can define the problem in precise mathematical terms but then it will NOT be the same thing as a plain-English “heap” and you’d be pulling a fast one if you acted like it was.
One of course, what a weird conversation to have.
A straw has zero holes
Then how does the liquid go through it
It’s just one long hole.
yup, answer is 1
