You could read Karl Popper’s The Paradox of Tolerance.
There’s no need to debate Nazism or Fascism with Nazis and Fascists. The education on it should come from historians and those otherwise educated in it.
When we censor Nazis we win. When we let them into our spaces we lose.
The critical flaw in Popper’s paradox is the assumption that society can accurately recognize and agree on the group of people who deserve to be shunned and silenced. Anyone subscribing to Popper’s paradox can claim it supports their own position against the other. That’s why it is a paradox.
Popper’s paradox suggests that the only solution to fascism is another form of fascism. He suggests the only way to deal with an authoritarian regime is with another authoritarian regime. When both sides subscribe to Popper, they ultimately attack each other, to the death.
The Free Speech absolutist position does not have this problem. When both sides subscribe to free speech, they defend eachother, to the death.
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend you while you say it, even as I yell at the top of my lungs that you are wrong and that nobody should be listening to you.
Karl Popper presented the paradox not to justify intolerance of the intolerant, but to show how reasonable, rational people were able to justify the atrocities committed in their name. Like all paradoxes, when we find that Popper’s model is paradoxical, we must recognize that absurdity. We must not adopt it, but reject the model that created it, and find a new method that doesn’t conclude in paradox. Free speech absolutism is one such approach.
You simultaneously reject it and believe he wrote it to prove how unsustainable it is?
You’re entirely wrong. No ideas need to be shared where people don’t want to hear them. You are free to speak and I am free to not listen. It’s truly a beautiful approach.
Edit: I’d also like to add that the paradox Popper is referring to is that of tolerating intolerance. That’s the paradox.
You simultaneously reject it and believe he wrote it to prove how unsustainable it is?
I reject the common interpretation of it, which is that “reverse fascism” is an acceptable response to “fascism”.
I give Popper the benefit of doubt by assuming that when he called it a paradox, he was presenting a proof-by-contradiction. In normal circumstances, a model arriving at paradoxical conclusions is proof of the model’s failure and a call for rejecting that model. If I assume Popper was not an idiot, I have to conclude that his paradox was not intended to support one form of intolerance over another, but was instead presented to demonstrate the subjective nature of fascism.
No ideas need to be shared where people don’t want to hear them. You are free to speak and I am free to not listen.
I think there is some confusion. Within the context of the paradox, those two sentences are mutually exclusive. The first one supports the paradox, while the second rejects it.
“No ideas need to be shared where people don’t want to listen” is a call for censorship; for silencing offensive voices. For creating a space where nothing offensive will be said, on the basis that “nobody” wants to hear it. In suggesting that offensive ideas should not be shared, you are supporting Popper’s paradox.
In the context of the paradox “You are free to speak…” Is a call for tolerating the intolerant. When you support my freedom to speak words you deem offensive, you are joining me in rejecting Popper’s paradox.
That makes you intolerant. Your model has called for your own oppression.
I don’t think you’re missing my point. I think you’re being deliberately obtuse.
The German People were following the paradox in 1935 when they denounced people who were interfering with their ideals. They were denouncing people who were trying to harm their ideal society. They were intolerant of those people who were pushing an “alternative” world view that wasn’t conducive to the advancement of the public’s goals. They felt these people had no redeeming qualities; that they were dangerous and disruptive to society. That they had nothing of any value to say, and that it was acceptable to suppress them. These dangerous, disruptive elements should be intolerated. They should be suppressed and destroyed, rather than allowed to interfere with the purity of German society.
If you present Popper’s paradox to the German public in 1935, they will agree with its truth. They will use his philosophy to support their eugenics and genocidal programs: it is vitally important for the German people to fight back against the intolerance of these disruptive influences. Indeed, Hitler presented the same concept in Mein Kampf, and called for intolerance against those he deemed intolerant.
There is no objective truth behind the paradox. Popper’s paradox works just as well for justifying your enemy’s actions as it does for your own. For that reason, it must be rejected.
No it doesn’t. This argument works only if you assume that “intolerance” is something that can be defined as “anyone against anything I’m doing”.
If fascists were able to say “they’re being oppressive of my desire to exclude them from our society” then that’s not a flaw in the paradox but their reasoning abilities. Any philosophy is irrelevant then.
The argument boils down to “it’s impossible to know if the opposing side is truly being intolerant.” You say it is impossible. I say it isn’t.
You could read Karl Popper’s The Paradox of Tolerance.
There’s no need to debate Nazism or Fascism with Nazis and Fascists. The education on it should come from historians and those otherwise educated in it.
When we censor Nazis we win. When we let them into our spaces we lose.
I’ve read it. I reject it.
The critical flaw in Popper’s paradox is the assumption that society can accurately recognize and agree on the group of people who deserve to be shunned and silenced. Anyone subscribing to Popper’s paradox can claim it supports their own position against the other. That’s why it is a paradox.
Popper’s paradox suggests that the only solution to fascism is another form of fascism. He suggests the only way to deal with an authoritarian regime is with another authoritarian regime. When both sides subscribe to Popper, they ultimately attack each other, to the death.
The Free Speech absolutist position does not have this problem. When both sides subscribe to free speech, they defend eachother, to the death.
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend you while you say it, even as I yell at the top of my lungs that you are wrong and that nobody should be listening to you.
Karl Popper presented the paradox not to justify intolerance of the intolerant, but to show how reasonable, rational people were able to justify the atrocities committed in their name. Like all paradoxes, when we find that Popper’s model is paradoxical, we must recognize that absurdity. We must not adopt it, but reject the model that created it, and find a new method that doesn’t conclude in paradox. Free speech absolutism is one such approach.
You simultaneously reject it and believe he wrote it to prove how unsustainable it is?
You’re entirely wrong. No ideas need to be shared where people don’t want to hear them. You are free to speak and I am free to not listen. It’s truly a beautiful approach.
Edit: I’d also like to add that the paradox Popper is referring to is that of tolerating intolerance. That’s the paradox.
I reject the common interpretation of it, which is that “reverse fascism” is an acceptable response to “fascism”.
I give Popper the benefit of doubt by assuming that when he called it a paradox, he was presenting a proof-by-contradiction. In normal circumstances, a model arriving at paradoxical conclusions is proof of the model’s failure and a call for rejecting that model. If I assume Popper was not an idiot, I have to conclude that his paradox was not intended to support one form of intolerance over another, but was instead presented to demonstrate the subjective nature of fascism.
I think there is some confusion. Within the context of the paradox, those two sentences are mutually exclusive. The first one supports the paradox, while the second rejects it.
“No ideas need to be shared where people don’t want to listen” is a call for censorship; for silencing offensive voices. For creating a space where nothing offensive will be said, on the basis that “nobody” wants to hear it. In suggesting that offensive ideas should not be shared, you are supporting Popper’s paradox.
In the context of the paradox “You are free to speak…” Is a call for tolerating the intolerant. When you support my freedom to speak words you deem offensive, you are joining me in rejecting Popper’s paradox.
Okay you clearly haven’t understood it.
If I am free to speak intolerantly, you are tolerating me. You are tolerating intolerance. The paradox does not apply to your scenario.
It’s called the paradox of tolerance. Tolerating intolerance is the paradox. So it says you can’t tolerate intolerance.
That makes you intolerant. Your model has called for your own oppression.
I don’t think you’re missing my point. I think you’re being deliberately obtuse.
The German People were following the paradox in 1935 when they denounced people who were interfering with their ideals. They were denouncing people who were trying to harm their ideal society. They were intolerant of those people who were pushing an “alternative” world view that wasn’t conducive to the advancement of the public’s goals. They felt these people had no redeeming qualities; that they were dangerous and disruptive to society. That they had nothing of any value to say, and that it was acceptable to suppress them. These dangerous, disruptive elements should be intolerated. They should be suppressed and destroyed, rather than allowed to interfere with the purity of German society.
If you present Popper’s paradox to the German public in 1935, they will agree with its truth. They will use his philosophy to support their eugenics and genocidal programs: it is vitally important for the German people to fight back against the intolerance of these disruptive influences. Indeed, Hitler presented the same concept in Mein Kampf, and called for intolerance against those he deemed intolerant.
There is no objective truth behind the paradox. Popper’s paradox works just as well for justifying your enemy’s actions as it does for your own. For that reason, it must be rejected.
No it doesn’t. This argument works only if you assume that “intolerance” is something that can be defined as “anyone against anything I’m doing”.
If fascists were able to say “they’re being oppressive of my desire to exclude them from our society” then that’s not a flaw in the paradox but their reasoning abilities. Any philosophy is irrelevant then.
The argument boils down to “it’s impossible to know if the opposing side is truly being intolerant.” You say it is impossible. I say it isn’t.