Maybe 20 years down the road that little bit is what tips us into a “luckier” (relatively speaking) outcome
You’re not listening. The people you’re talking to do not believe we have 20 years.
You don’t have to agree with that analysis in order to understand the objections of those who do. Repeatedly berating leftists for critiquing Biden isn’t going to persuade them to change their mind.
So is this, like, a one-way thing? Like I listen to their viewpoints but if I say my viewpoint, then it’s “You’re not listening” and then repetition of the viewpoint?
They’re welcome to their opinion. This is mine, including why I think some particular ones of them are shills, and including that if anyone is concerned with activism outside of the system and real change in the United States they should be breaking their back making sure it’s not Trump in the fall, because unlike Biden he will absolutely destroy their ability to organize and get anything done, maybe until it’s permanently too late to do anything productive for the planet.
You can, of course, think what you like about it. Just stating my take on it and answering your question.
Of course not, I just think that pretending that they share the same interests and concerns as you is naive and willfully ignorant of their viewpoint. They clearly understand that you do not share their interests. Bragging about the marginal improvements to the problematic system they are fighting against is the height of hubris, especially if the aim is to actually change their mind.
“Put your concerns aside so that you can work for change when the stakes are lower” is just asking those people to sacrifice the only political leverage they have so that a politician that is ambivalent about their concerns can win re-election. If you’re uncomfortable with the threat of their dissent then it is having exactly the intended effect and they should absolutely keep doing it.
“Put your concerns aside so that you can work for change when the stakes are lower” is just asking those people to sacrifice the only political leverage they have so that a politician that is ambivalent about their concerns can win re-election.
I think these people who are working for change will be in a better position to do so if there’s an extra billion tons of CO2 per year not getting put into the atmosphere, and if they can protest without worrying if paramilitary forces are going to shoot them with lethal rounds. That means voting for Biden in this election. I’m certainly not telling them to put anything aside while they’re doing that.
Protests don’t mean anything if it isn’t disruptive to people who hold the power. They have a better chance protesting against a politician who isn’t going to put them down with lethal rounds and who has a lot to loose right now, rather than against the same politician after they have nothing to loose and a demonstrated history of not giving a fuck about progressive issues, or against a different politician who has no problem putting them down with paramilitary forces.
Protesting against Biden now is the best time and person to be protesting, and threatening to withhold support is as much leverage any leftist will ever have outside of less-than-legal economic disruption.
Protesting against Biden now is the best time and person to be protesting, and threatening to withhold support is as much leverage any leftist will ever have outside of less-than-legal economic disruption.
Yeah, sounds great. I talked about this with respect to Gaza; I think this is a good idea.
We are however all the way back at the full-circle point of, where does making up things that Biden didn’t do and accusing him of doing them and so laying some propaganda groundwork for Trump to win the general election fit into that.
where does making up things that Biden didn’t do and accusing him of doing them and so laying some propaganda groundwork for Trump to win the general election fit into that
I am having a really hard time parsing this one out, and i’m not sure what inaccurate accusations this is in reference to, but I’m reminded of this quote from Malcom X:
Early in life I had learned that if you want something, you had better make some noise.
Expressing objections loudly is the actual definition of protest, which is effective solely by a function of its potential to damage reputation or public support. A protest lacking genuine threat is nothing more than political self-indulgence.
You might as well be complaining that the protest is too effective, IMHO.
i’m not sure what inaccurate accusations this is in reference to
So like two examples would be saying Biden’s bad on marijuana policy, or saying he’s bad for the climate because he’s not doing enough to drag the US government into the vague proximity of something that will enable us to continue existing in 100 years.
Expressing objections loudly is the actual definition of protest, which is effective solely by a function of its potential to damage reputation or public support. A protest lacking genuine threat is nothing more than political self-indulgence.
You might as well be complaining that the protest is too effective, IMHO.
Not sure how else to say it. Doing this sounds great. Doing it over things that Biden didn’t do, I don’t agree with. Attacking him from the left and saying he better pass another climate bill that’s 5 times more effective during his second term because what he did isn’t nearly enough, sure, sounds great. In combination with trying to give the people who blocked him from being able to do more have some trouble in their elections sounds even better. Attacking him from the nonsense-perspective that he’s actively hurting the climate on purpose and using right-wing talking points to make that case, giving him trouble in his election against Donald Trump with no particular way that he could address your concern and thus no productive pressure on him that will produce a good result, that sounds less great. Surely that makes sense?
(I’m not saying that you’re doing any of the above things – just saying what I most firmly disagree with about OP and a lot of the people I’ve been talking to about this.)
Doing it over things that Biden didn’t do, I don’t agree with
So like two examples would be saying Biden’s bad on marijuana policy, or saying he’s bad for the climate because he’s not doing enough to drag the US government into the vague proximity of something that will enable us to continue existing in 100 years.
Ok, well, sure, but you can see how these two assertions aren’t fabrications about something Biden ‘did’, it’s a statement that he isn’t doing enough to address the problem or even mitigate the bulk of the harm those things have… Right?
I understand you don’t like criticisms of Biden because it feels like a threat to his re-election, but that doesn’t make those criticisms a fabrication nor does it make them misplaced.
Attacking him from the nonsense-perspective that he’s actively hurting the climate on purpose and using right-wing talking points to make that case, giving him trouble in his election against Donald Trump with no particular way that he could address your concern and thus no productive pressure on him that will produce a good result, that sounds less great.
I’m not sure who if anyone has said he’s ‘actively hurting the climate on purpose’, but I see a potential misinterpretation if someone said something about his approval of new oil drilling in Alaska (after campaigning on ‘no new drilling contracts’) - or approval of new gas pipelines - as an indication of “active” harm to the environment. A huge part of our disagreement exists in a difference of opinion on what ‘reasonable’ action he could take. And while a case could be made that he’s done what he can without threatening US interests, a lot of leftists would say that the US has far too many interests and influences to begin with.
And I think this goes back to what I originally said: liberals are just not in alignment with leftist interests. Leftists give more weight to real climate impact over things liberals tend to give weight to, such as economic growth and GDP or international energy independence or hostile foreign relations. A lot of the reasons Biden doesn’t do more are reasons leftists fundamentally disagree with. He is unwilling to take action that harms the system we seek to dismantle, and that means he frequently falls short of any kind of satisfactory result.
Maybe that’s why you remain frustrated that we don’t recognize his accomplishments; we see them as the continued prioritization of interests that are in conflict with progressive goals.
You’re not listening. The people you’re talking to do not believe we have 20 years.
You don’t have to agree with that analysis in order to understand the objections of those who do. Repeatedly berating leftists for critiquing Biden isn’t going to persuade them to change their mind.
So is this, like, a one-way thing? Like I listen to their viewpoints but if I say my viewpoint, then it’s “You’re not listening” and then repetition of the viewpoint?
They’re welcome to their opinion. This is mine, including why I think some particular ones of them are shills, and including that if anyone is concerned with activism outside of the system and real change in the United States they should be breaking their back making sure it’s not Trump in the fall, because unlike Biden he will absolutely destroy their ability to organize and get anything done, maybe until it’s permanently too late to do anything productive for the planet.
You can, of course, think what you like about it. Just stating my take on it and answering your question.
My best organizing years were 2016-2017 and 2020.
Of course not, I just think that pretending that they share the same interests and concerns as you is naive and willfully ignorant of their viewpoint. They clearly understand that you do not share their interests. Bragging about the marginal improvements to the problematic system they are fighting against is the height of hubris, especially if the aim is to actually change their mind.
“Put your concerns aside so that you can work for change when the stakes are lower” is just asking those people to sacrifice the only political leverage they have so that a politician that is ambivalent about their concerns can win re-election. If you’re uncomfortable with the threat of their dissent then it is having exactly the intended effect and they should absolutely keep doing it.
I think these people who are working for change will be in a better position to do so if there’s an extra billion tons of CO2 per year not getting put into the atmosphere, and if they can protest without worrying if paramilitary forces are going to shoot them with lethal rounds. That means voting for Biden in this election. I’m certainly not telling them to put anything aside while they’re doing that.
Protests don’t mean anything if it isn’t disruptive to people who hold the power. They have a better chance protesting against a politician who isn’t going to put them down with lethal rounds and who has a lot to loose right now, rather than against the same politician after they have nothing to loose and a demonstrated history of not giving a fuck about progressive issues, or against a different politician who has no problem putting them down with paramilitary forces.
Protesting against Biden now is the best time and person to be protesting, and threatening to withhold support is as much leverage any leftist will ever have outside of less-than-legal economic disruption.
Yeah, sounds great. I talked about this with respect to Gaza; I think this is a good idea.
We are however all the way back at the full-circle point of, where does making up things that Biden didn’t do and accusing him of doing them and so laying some propaganda groundwork for Trump to win the general election fit into that.
I am having a really hard time parsing this one out, and i’m not sure what inaccurate accusations this is in reference to, but I’m reminded of this quote from Malcom X:
Expressing objections loudly is the actual definition of protest, which is effective solely by a function of its potential to damage reputation or public support. A protest lacking genuine threat is nothing more than political self-indulgence.
You might as well be complaining that the protest is too effective, IMHO.
So like two examples would be saying Biden’s bad on marijuana policy, or saying he’s bad for the climate because he’s not doing enough to drag the US government into the vague proximity of something that will enable us to continue existing in 100 years.
Not sure how else to say it. Doing this sounds great. Doing it over things that Biden didn’t do, I don’t agree with. Attacking him from the left and saying he better pass another climate bill that’s 5 times more effective during his second term because what he did isn’t nearly enough, sure, sounds great. In combination with trying to give the people who blocked him from being able to do more have some trouble in their elections sounds even better. Attacking him from the nonsense-perspective that he’s actively hurting the climate on purpose and using right-wing talking points to make that case, giving him trouble in his election against Donald Trump with no particular way that he could address your concern and thus no productive pressure on him that will produce a good result, that sounds less great. Surely that makes sense?
(I’m not saying that you’re doing any of the above things – just saying what I most firmly disagree with about OP and a lot of the people I’ve been talking to about this.)
Ok, well, sure, but you can see how these two assertions aren’t fabrications about something Biden ‘did’, it’s a statement that he isn’t doing enough to address the problem or even mitigate the bulk of the harm those things have… Right?
I understand you don’t like criticisms of Biden because it feels like a threat to his re-election, but that doesn’t make those criticisms a fabrication nor does it make them misplaced.
I’m not sure who if anyone has said he’s ‘actively hurting the climate on purpose’, but I see a potential misinterpretation if someone said something about his approval of new oil drilling in Alaska (after campaigning on ‘no new drilling contracts’) - or approval of new gas pipelines - as an indication of “active” harm to the environment. A huge part of our disagreement exists in a difference of opinion on what ‘reasonable’ action he could take. And while a case could be made that he’s done what he can without threatening US interests, a lot of leftists would say that the US has far too many interests and influences to begin with.
And I think this goes back to what I originally said: liberals are just not in alignment with leftist interests. Leftists give more weight to real climate impact over things liberals tend to give weight to, such as economic growth and GDP or international energy independence or hostile foreign relations. A lot of the reasons Biden doesn’t do more are reasons leftists fundamentally disagree with. He is unwilling to take action that harms the system we seek to dismantle, and that means he frequently falls short of any kind of satisfactory result.
Maybe that’s why you remain frustrated that we don’t recognize his accomplishments; we see them as the continued prioritization of interests that are in conflict with progressive goals.
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what if i come up with a really whitty nickname like “ivan” or “big baby”? do you think that would make them change their moral approach?
I have no idea how to interpret this comment.
i’m just asking if the techniques i’ve seen people use to argue with leftists would be effective. i’m being snide.