The outrage is that the solution is to suck the feature into an already massive project built to replace initd and has absorbed several other services (syslog, logind, crond), creating dependencies along the way.
systemd will be superceded, like pulseaudio, because it has an awful design. It’ll just be a lot more work for distros to replace because of all the other services it’s absorbed. Hopefully by then Poettering will have retired and stopped inflicting his software in people. The problem isn’t his initial offerings; those are rather good and solve a problem well. Good enough that distros adopt it. It’s just that he can’t resist feature envy and bloat, and once a distro has a dependency on his solution, the bloat comes along and it’s more work to switch away than just let the bloat take over.
Edit: “superseded?” Where were you when I needed you, autocorrect?
The reason systemd absorbs other services is because it’s trying to make a proper integrated OS userland. Having a load of separate components that don’t really know anything about each other kiiind of works, but it’s super janky.
For example Windows has supported a secure attention key sequence (ctrl-alt-del) for literal decades. Linux still doesn’t support this very basic - and critical for shared computing environments like schools - feature, because it requires coordinating X11 and logind and the kernel and god knows what else and they simply aren’t properly integrated.
The systemd hatred strongly reminds me of when Xorg started automating the config and you no longer needed xfree86config. You didn’t need to manually write mode lines and tell X that your mouse had 3 buttons, and some people did not like that.
Yes it sounds completely insane that people wouldn’t like this obvious improvement where things used to require tedious manual configuration and now they worked automatically but some people really didn’t I promise! My theory is that it’s because a) it made their hard won knowledge obsolete, making them less smart relatively, and b) they resented the fact that they had to go through the pain but new people wouldn’t and that isn’t fair.
Seems similar with systemd. I would like my laptop to sleep properly please.
Also I have actually read some of the sudo source code. There’s absolutely no way that code should be SUID. Insane.
I can see an argument that Poettering is a net good because he does something, and it’s usually pretty decent to start. Then after it’s been widely adopted, some weird software megalomania takes over and it swells into a bloated carcass until someone is motivated enough to build a better, more focused, replacement.
systemd is a distro builder’s dream: all you need is that and a kernel, and you’ve got most of the non-userspace, so you throw GNU on top and you’re free to do what you really wanted to focus on: a new package manager, or a specific desktop environment, bells-and-whistles.
I really hate journald. Like, with enough passion I’m slowly converting all my systems away from systemd, just to get rid of it. It’s slow and buggy, and the fact that I can’t swap it out for something else is the reason I’m anti-systemd. Which is an excellent initd replacement, IMO, and if that were all it was I’d be a fan-boi. But journald stinks, for all the reasons you point out, and more.
As far as I remember Poettering worked for IBM’s RedHat for some time and then the systemd lobbying vibe became stronger (with Fedora being the RedHat toy). Nowadays Poettering works for Microsoft, btw.
Because the software he writes starts out good, and solves problems. systemd is a really nice initd replacement. Pulseaudio really improved audio on Linux. Distros adopted them because they were good.
The problem is feature creep, exactly like the OP post. For some reason, Poettering’s projects can’t contain themselves to a problem space. Converting init systems is a lot of work, and even if Debian had recognized the feature-creep of systemd as undesirable, there was no way they were going through all of the pain and suffering of another migration. Plus, there isn’t yet a clear successor to systemd. My money is on dinit; s6 is simply too complex, and has too many commands to remember. But the point is, systemd was an excellent initd replacement, and there was a lot of adoption when that’s all it was. And as it grew, distros were already committed and stuck with it (although, journald was there from the beginning, and that should have sounded warning bells).
As far as I remember Poettering worked for IBM’s RedHat for some time and then the systemd lobbying vibe became stronger (with Fedora being the RedHat toy). Nowadays Poettering works for Microsoft, btw.
The outrage is that the solution is to suck the feature into an already massive project built to replace initd and has absorbed several other services (syslog, logind, crond), creating dependencies along the way.
systemd will be superceded, like pulseaudio, because it has an awful design. It’ll just be a lot more work for distros to replace because of all the other services it’s absorbed. Hopefully by then Poettering will have retired and stopped inflicting his software in people. The problem isn’t his initial offerings; those are rather good and solve a problem well. Good enough that distros adopt it. It’s just that he can’t resist feature envy and bloat, and once a distro has a dependency on his solution, the bloat comes along and it’s more work to switch away than just let the bloat take over.
Edit: “superseded?” Where were you when I needed you, autocorrect?
The reason systemd absorbs other services is because it’s trying to make a proper integrated OS userland. Having a load of separate components that don’t really know anything about each other kiiind of works, but it’s super janky.
For example Windows has supported a secure attention key sequence (ctrl-alt-del) for literal decades. Linux still doesn’t support this very basic - and critical for shared computing environments like schools - feature, because it requires coordinating X11 and logind and the kernel and god knows what else and they simply aren’t properly integrated.
The systemd hatred strongly reminds me of when Xorg started automating the config and you no longer needed xfree86config. You didn’t need to manually write mode lines and tell X that your mouse had 3 buttons, and some people did not like that.
Yes it sounds completely insane that people wouldn’t like this obvious improvement where things used to require tedious manual configuration and now they worked automatically but some people really didn’t I promise! My theory is that it’s because a) it made their hard won knowledge obsolete, making them less smart relatively, and b) they resented the fact that they had to go through the pain but new people wouldn’t and that isn’t fair.
Seems similar with systemd. I would like my laptop to sleep properly please.
Also I have actually read some of the sudo source code. There’s absolutely no way that code should be SUID. Insane.
wake me up when this happen lol
A few years ago, you’d have said the same thing about pulseaudio.
pulseaudio was always shit LMAO, the same about the stupid bash scripts used for init before systemd
pipewire?
Yah.
Yep, completely agree. That was essentially the last line of my comment.
I also wish that journald had a spec for its database, or standardised on something like Sqlite which could be interrogated with generic tooling.
Agree, and I think I understood what you meant.
I can see an argument that Poettering is a net good because he does something, and it’s usually pretty decent to start. Then after it’s been widely adopted, some weird software megalomania takes over and it swells into a bloated carcass until someone is motivated enough to build a better, more focused, replacement.
systemd is a distro builder’s dream: all you need is that and a kernel, and you’ve got most of the non-userspace, so you throw GNU on top and you’re free to do what you really wanted to focus on: a new package manager, or a specific desktop environment, bells-and-whistles.
I really hate journald. Like, with enough passion I’m slowly converting all my systems away from systemd, just to get rid of it. It’s slow and buggy, and the fact that I can’t swap it out for something else is the reason I’m anti-systemd. Which is an excellent initd replacement, IMO, and if that were all it was I’d be a fan-boi. But journald stinks, for all the reasons you point out, and more.
How did he get so much influence over most mainstream distros? Asking for a friend…
he never, distros adopted systemd because it works, no one forced them, end of the history
No, that’s too rational. What leverage does he have on all of these distro maintainers? Someone needs to get to the bottom of this! /s
lmao found one answer exactly like that
Because the software he writes starts out good, and solves problems. systemd is a really nice initd replacement. Pulseaudio really improved audio on Linux. Distros adopted them because they were good.
The problem is feature creep, exactly like the OP post. For some reason, Poettering’s projects can’t contain themselves to a problem space. Converting init systems is a lot of work, and even if Debian had recognized the feature-creep of systemd as undesirable, there was no way they were going through all of the pain and suffering of another migration. Plus, there isn’t yet a clear successor to systemd. My money is on dinit; s6 is simply too complex, and has too many commands to remember. But the point is, systemd was an excellent initd replacement, and there was a lot of adoption when that’s all it was. And as it grew, distros were already committed and stuck with it (although, journald was there from the beginning, and that should have sounded warning bells).
don’t use the features, lol “nooo how dare them put new optionals features 😭😭”
As far as I remember Poettering worked for IBM’s RedHat for some time and then the systemd lobbying vibe became stronger (with Fedora being the RedHat toy). Nowadays Poettering works for Microsoft, btw.