Well yeah, but if you’re a Christian you believe that it’s literally God telling you that you can’t be rich and go to heaven. God may make an exception, but it would be just as absurd for you to count on being an exception to this rule as it would be for you to count on being the exception to the rule that “none come to the father but through me”. If you’re rich, you’re just as damned as if you were never Christian to begin with.
I think it isn’t really to do with the money itself but with the mindset. If you’re the type to dodge taxes and scam people, and love money above all, which is arguably what it takes to become rich, then you clearly aren’t a Christian transformed by God.
I am a Christian and I think your argument is weak. That Jesus talks of a rich person here is irrelevant, the core of Jesus teaching is that salvation is a gift freely given, but not something we can obtain in our own power.
That Jesus talks of a rich person here is irrelevant
It’s really very relevant:
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
The message here isn’t about buying your way into heaven, it’s about earthly attachments. In part it is about sacrificing your own desires, but ultimately it’s about split loyalties. If you want to enter heaven, you cannot be burdened by avarice, by the desire for possessions. And if you truly seek to follow what Jesus is teaching, then you would give up everything to do it.
I agree, but I think making it to sound like Jesus says rich people can’t be saved is a misinterpretation. It seems to me he says it’s hard for rich people to truly follow him and his teaching, and that only God can save people.
The problem is, if after hearing the teaching you are still rich then you haven’t understood the teaching or really accepted the message - because you are still attached to your worldly possessions.
It’s not that “rich people can’t be saved”… it’s that being rich and following Jesus are fundamentally incompatible. You can’t be rich and “truly follow him”, as you put it.
The easiest thought experiment here is asking “But how do you get rich?”
Well, it’s certainly not by putting others first and being fair and equitable in all your dealings. That’s against the “game” (oh sorry, “best practices”) of business.
A ton of capitalist co-opting of Christianity makes all kinds of excuses for why a Godly person could work 1,000,000x harder than everyone else and be “blessed” with the burdens of wealth, but it’s all propaganda.
Inheritance maybe? Okay, the question still becomes: What did you do with your resources?
Being honest with these questions makes the truth rather apparent, in my humble opinion.
Context is important. Literally the next couple verses in both passages say something along the lines of "The disciples asked, ‘Then who can be saved?’ Jesus said, ‘With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.’ "
Fair point, what I meant is that in relation to being saved, it’s irrelevant he is rich because only God can save people. In relation to the hardships you’d face with being a Christian and rich it’s valid.
Well yeah, but if you’re a Christian you believe that it’s literally God telling you that you can’t be rich and go to heaven. God may make an exception, but it would be just as absurd for you to count on being an exception to this rule as it would be for you to count on being the exception to the rule that “none come to the father but through me”. If you’re rich, you’re just as damned as if you were never Christian to begin with.
I think it isn’t really to do with the money itself but with the mindset. If you’re the type to dodge taxes and scam people, and love money above all, which is arguably what it takes to become rich, then you clearly aren’t a Christian transformed by God.
I agree, it’s what you do with the money. Jesus tells you what to do with the money, and either you do that or you don’t.
I am a Christian and I think your argument is weak. That Jesus talks of a rich person here is irrelevant, the core of Jesus teaching is that salvation is a gift freely given, but not something we can obtain in our own power.
It’s really very relevant:
Matthew 19:20-24
The message here isn’t about buying your way into heaven, it’s about earthly attachments. In part it is about sacrificing your own desires, but ultimately it’s about split loyalties. If you want to enter heaven, you cannot be burdened by avarice, by the desire for possessions. And if you truly seek to follow what Jesus is teaching, then you would give up everything to do it.
I agree, but I think making it to sound like Jesus says rich people can’t be saved is a misinterpretation. It seems to me he says it’s hard for rich people to truly follow him and his teaching, and that only God can save people.
The problem is, if after hearing the teaching you are still rich then you haven’t understood the teaching or really accepted the message - because you are still attached to your worldly possessions.
It’s not that “rich people can’t be saved”… it’s that being rich and following Jesus are fundamentally incompatible. You can’t be rich and “truly follow him”, as you put it.
Precisely.
The easiest thought experiment here is asking “But how do you get rich?”
Well, it’s certainly not by putting others first and being fair and equitable in all your dealings. That’s against the “game” (oh sorry, “best practices”) of business.
A ton of capitalist co-opting of Christianity makes all kinds of excuses for why a Godly person could work 1,000,000x harder than everyone else and be “blessed” with the burdens of wealth, but it’s all propaganda.
Inheritance maybe? Okay, the question still becomes: What did you do with your resources?
Being honest with these questions makes the truth rather apparent, in my humble opinion.
“Hard” as in “impossible”. It’s literally right there in the text. Have you seen a camel fit in the eye of a needle before?
Context is important. Literally the next couple verses in both passages say something along the lines of "The disciples asked, ‘Then who can be saved?’ Jesus said, ‘With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.’ "
Which is a meaningless nonstatement.
Why?
Christianity and Christians who have their own custom-built version that gets them off scot free, name a more iconic duo.
it’s your god, of what he says you get to decide what to ignore and what to value
That’s not my argument at all but it seems you’re not interested in that
I dont think irrelevant they were rich, I think it indicated that you cant buy your way into heaven and you are not chosen by God to be rich.
Fair point, what I meant is that in relation to being saved, it’s irrelevant he is rich because only God can save people. In relation to the hardships you’d face with being a Christian and rich it’s valid.