It looks like the upcoming Lower Decks season will be the last one 😭😭 I didn’t have any expectations for this show but it has quickly grown to be one of my favorites. I’ll miss it
It looks like the upcoming Lower Decks season will be the last one 😭😭 I didn’t have any expectations for this show but it has quickly grown to be one of my favorites. I’ll miss it
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I should add that a YA show about Starfleet Academy sounds like a way to save a hell of a lot of money on effects. No strange new worlds, no new life and new civilizations. Because cadets don’t leave the academy until their senior year.
This whole thing, to me, says “we’ve found a demographic we can tap into and save money in the process” and not “we need to make good Star Trek.”
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Yes. 100%. It’s always about money. Paramount does not greenlight Star Trek shows unless they think it will make them money.
Another demographic isn’t bad. Relying on that demographic as one of maybe two shows when it has not traditionally been a Star Trek demographic is a huge risk that comes entirely from bean counters.
This is entirely different. This is not pandering. This is trying to get Paramount+ an entirely new viewer base at the expense of everything else because it’s what desperate Paramount+ executives feel their failing streaming service needs to survive. “We’re adding a few queer characters to get a gay audience” would be pandering, because it’s about gratification. This isn’t about gratification, this is about subscription fees. This isn’t “okay, we’re throwing you kids a bone so you’ll watch too,” this is, “we are creating this show entirely around the idea of getting new viewers to pay for Paramount+.”
And again, this isn’t the creative team behind Star Trek saying so, this is Paramount executives.
It isn’t bad, but it should be treated with suspicion. Because all streaming service tentpole shows that get greenlit should be treated with suspicion right now. It should also be treated with suspicion because there’s zero movement on Legacy, Prodigy was shunted over to Netflix and now Lower Decks, despite being super popular, is ending with only 50 episodes total.
This is not the early streaming era where anything went and people had lots of creative freedom. This is an era where demographics are everything to executives.
I am absolutely cynical about such things because I have seen how such things play out over and over again.
Edit: If you haven’t read this post yet, this article supports my point: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/paramount-earnings-stock-cash-content-1235328376/
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I agree. I’m entirely speculating. But I am not hopeful, I’m just not. I’m sorry.
If it were sold by Paramount as “Middle Aged Star Trek” or “White Star Trek” or “Cis Star Trek” or whatever, yes. I have, aside from Prodigy, never heard Paramount, Vicacom, whatever, sell a Star Trek show as ‘we’re designing this show around this group of people.’
It instantly raises my suspicions.
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I think you keep missing me saying that I hope it’s good, I’m just not optimistic that it will be.
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the “lgbtq+” characters in STD were borderline offense with the level of stereotyping they pulled, it’s not like we didn’t have LGBTQ+ characters before, of course they weren’t a fucking caricature…
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considering you only see LGBTQ+ if it’s a stereotype, you must think Rain-man a decent representation of ASD…
then again, I love how you pretend at some argument of consistency when all the “one word” series are known mainly by said word (Voyager, Enterprise), and TOS just meaning the original series, so you have two examples here, both of which, if we went with their naming convention, would leave it called “D”.
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There is a standard naming convention, and it predates the creation of Discovery. Voyager is VOY, and Enterprise is ENT. No one calls Voyager “STV”, as that would cause confusion with Star Trek V, the movie. If you’ve ever used Memory Alpha or participated in a fan community like Daystrom you’ll know that this has been standard for a long time. By extension, Discovery is DIS, Picard is PIC, and Prodigy is PRO.
DSC is a special case because it’s used internally by the production (even shows up in the show itself once or twice) so some people have taken to using it, but it’s not consistent with the other naming schemes we use so it’s not standard. In fact, when it came out that Voyager was referred to internally as VGR, basically no one switched because everyone was so used to calling it VOY.
Out of curiosity, who do you see as the LGBTQ+ characters? I can think of a few, but outside of mirror universe eps no one is actually established as queer. It’s all subtext, or implied.
Then there’s the big lesbian kiss with Jadzia, and that’s awesome, but immediately after they decide that they shouldn’t be doing this and they go their separate ways, and Jadzia never to my knowledge expresses her attraction to a woman again. Even in that case, it’s unique because said woman used to be a man. It’s not Jadzia just being attracted to a woman on her own merits.
What’s big about new Trek is that the characters are actually queer in the text, not just subtext. I’m a big fan of reading Garak and Bashir as queer, but they’re fundamentally not good representation because as far as the story itself is concerned, they’re two straight men. It’s only through the actors’ performances that the queer implications shine through.
The franchise should appeal to other demographics other than the ones that are currently enjoying it to broaden its portfolio and horizons, but not at their expense.
Discovery pissed a lot of people off, I know you like it, but it undeniably annoyed a lot of people alongside Picard. It feels like it was a middle ground between nostalgia plays and trying something new. Eventually it did lead to Strange New Worlds which a lot of established fans really like, but it took Discovery the average two seasons to figure out and find its footing. When it freed itself from being beholden to nostalgia grabs in the TOS era it became something unique that stood on its own in my opinion.
I really like both Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, and Mike McMahan did a great job of creating something that was made with reverence for the source material despite being jocular in tone. I’m upset because I’ll miss it when it’s gone because the replacement is not something I am interested in. It’s like having a really great coworker move to another department and having a replacement who just doesn’t get you.
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I want to enjoy my favorite franchise and you’re calling me an asshole because other people exist. I understand other people exist, I am a person, and I want to watch Star Trek just like you are a person who wants to watch Star Trek. Your strawman argument is needlessly hostile when all we both want to do is have and watch different kinds of Star Trek. Just because my preferential parts of the franchise happened to come before yours does not make it invalid. The three concurrent airing shows proves they can all exist at the same time. They should continue to do so in different forms, exploring strange new worlds.
You can make more than one show that appeals to multiple demographics.
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Bro you literally strawmanned my argument. You literally put words in my mouth. I don’t get why you’re always on edge. We’re literally just discussing fucking science fiction on the internet. Did I need to say “essentially calling me an asshole?” Should I have said “being hostile about opinions?”
I really don’t get you Stamets. Every time we interact you’re just super aggro.
It makes me feel like I can’t contribute in any meaningful way to threads around you because you’ll just call me super rude things like “utterly wrong” which I think is massively aggressive for no reason just on the basis that we disagree on something.
I think you are mistaking Stamets’ passion with aggression.
If you look at our discussion, I think you can see that, while he vehemently disagrees with me, he’s not attacking me. And he wasn’t attacking you either.
Stamets feels very strongly about this and when he feels very strongly about something, he argues about it with a lot of passion. And I think that’s a good thing.
That’s definitely a part of it, but the line gets crossed when we stop talking about the series and start talking about how we’re talking to each other. We don’t actually discuss Star Trek so much as point out different ways we could have communicated to one another.
I am just not going to comment and interact with Stamets, because I acknowledge the passion, and agree it’s great, but you can have passion and still know how to communicate with people without being seemingly hostile. When you call somebody “utterly wrong” they’re going to be upset, even if you just meant “I vehemently disagree with you” there’s simply more diplomatic ways to get your point across.
I think we would probably get along better if we heard each other vocally. I know a lot of people who I disagree with when we’re typing but they come off totally different when they’re speaking because you can hear the tone.
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I don’t want to discuss Star Trek with you anymore either. It seems we’re unable to do so amicably.
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I’m not trying to be gatekeepy. I would be okay if this show if it wasn’t going to soon apparently be the only Star Trek show other than maybe Prodigy, something else that is there just for young viewers. The long-term legacy of Star Trek should not rest on the shoulders of a YA show and a kids animated show.
Wasn’t Prodigy cancelled entirely? Didn’t they sell the final animated season to Netflix?
Last I heard it was up in the air whether or not Netflix would keep funding it.
Did they also say they were ending SNW? You’re sounding like they’ve cancelled like the entire slate just to have this Starfleet Academy show.
They have not, but do you really think it will continue past season 5?
I don’t mind a planned finale.
They’re definitely not going to just have the one show, if history repeats itself. TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT were all overlapping by a season or two each.
I can’t imagine they’re going to just have a young adult show, a Michelle Yeoh Section 31 movie or whatever, and then nothing else. There’s definitely no way Prodigy is part of this plan, especially if Netflix is the one seeking to fund it. If three things are ending, then they have the production budget and staffing to produce three more different things. Star Trek is one of their most valuable IPs, it would be hilariously terrible if mismanagement led to it just totally floundering.
I don’t think I have the faith in Paramount not self-sabotaging itself in a combination of desperation to get people to sign up for Paramount plus and saving money.
Star Trek might bounce back eventually, but I think this era is likely coming to a slow stop.
I think they should replace Kurtzmann with Seth Macfarlane for the next round.
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See my other comment. This really isn’t about the show itself, this is about Paramount executives dictating what a show should be rather than let the creative team do so.
Legacy has been pushed hard by the creative team. I don’t see any sign of Paramount executives going for it… probably because it would be a lot more expensive.
All Paramount cares about right now is getting people to join and stay on Paramount Plus. Everything Star Trek (apart from maybe movies) has to be viewed through that lens at the moment.
I wish the entertainment business wasn’t all about money, I really do. But it is. And that doesn’t make for good television most of the time.
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But that’s my point. Kurtzman is not the one greenlighting these shows. That’s not in his power. He can want to make Legacy more than anything in the world, but Paramount is the one that gets to say which show gets made. And maybe even Kurtzman suggested, “let’s do a Starfleet Academy show.” But him suggesting it is not the reason it was greenlit.
As I said, my issue is that this, right now, looks like it will be the only Star Trek show left after SNW is over (and I doubt it will last more than five seasons either), which I maintain is a terrible idea, specifically because it is intended to appeal to a specific demographic. Animated shows aside, Star Trek has never been created with the intention to appeal to a specific demographic. It has always been a show for everyone. Paramount is explicitly calling this a YA show.
A YA Star Trek show is just fine. I think it’s great if it is a good show and introduces a new audience to it.
A YA Star Trek show being the only thing left is a terrible idea. And that is what is the case right now. Maybe Legacy will be greenlit and I will change my tune, but as it is right now, I will maintain that a YA Star Trek being the only Star Trek show left is a bad thing and is not what most current fans want.
Is it really a good idea to introduce a new audience a new audience to Star Trek at the expense of the current audience? Because I don’t think it is.
And before you say it, I would definitely not say that Discovery would be the same sort of thing. Discovery was not sold as a show made to a specific audience.
Let me add one thing I am hopeful about for the show, since I have only said negative things so far. I am hopeful that the show does more to flesh out the Star Trek of the 32nd century. I think that would be a fine thing. Discovery started down an interesting path and continuing down that path is not a bad idea.
Just not, again, at the expense of the rest of Star Trek.
Edit: One more thought, since you brought up LGBT+ representation in Star Trek, something you know I support and wish had happened much earlier… If Paramount announced a show, selling it as “LGBT+ Star Trek,” wouldn’t that make you at least a little suspicious about the motivations behind the show and what executives might demand of it?
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Okay, fair enough. It would make me instantly suspicious. Hopeful since it would represent me, but very suspicious.
Let me use a different example to explain why I would be suspicious. But I also used an example that you were too close to.
Let’s use the example of “Black Star Trek.” A Star Trek that represents the black experience? Wonderful idea! Look at the explorations of it on DS9 already!
But until these questions were answered, I would be very suspicious:
How much black representation would there be behind the scenes? How much would it lean into stereotypes? Would this be a 1950s “romance stories written for women by men” scenario? Would “Star Trek” be put on the back burner over “black” to the point that it is only a Star Trek series in name and it isn’t really “Black Star Trek?”
So yes- LGBT+ Star Trek with a lot of queer input behind the scenes and with actors like Anthony Rapp representing the community on camera, that would be great… but that is not guaranteed and I was in the entertainment industry too long to not be cynical about this sort of thing. And in the case of YA Star Trek, I am not convinced yet that it will not be a bunch of sappy romance bullshit written by people who aren’t Star Trek fans and don’t understand sci-fi rather than exploring strange new worlds and seeking out new life and new civilizations.
I am never optimistic about these things when they’re announced this way until I find out exactly who will be involved in putting them together. I’ve seen this sort of thing go south way too many times now.
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