This doesn’t make any sense to me. Does “Liberal” mean something different in America than UK/Europe?
Pretty much. Their left would be more centre/centre right anywhere else.
Not “anywhere else”. Europe, specifically. You Europeans are such narcissists. You are not the whole planet.
I’m Canadian, and it counts for Canada too.
Hey remember when the Liberal party fucked up electoral reform in Canada?
Awwww shoot, now you HAVE TO vote for them again or yous gets the conservatives again!
Opps didn’t mean to!
Just First Past the Post voting things.
That’s fair, we also don’t have a two party system.
Canada is just far western Europe.
While you’re clearly ignorant, Canada does share a border with Denmark.
Not, it’s pretty much everywhere else.
Source: Not from Europe
Clearly you’re not from Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or any of the multitude of countries for whom our right wing is their left wing.
In any case, anyone dumb enough to say “nuh uh what you say is universally false because my own individual experience contradicts it” should not be attempting to communicate with thinking beings.
Christ it bugs me when people do that shit. “Source: me” no fuck you, you’re not a source, I know a girl with one leg but that doesn’t mean all girls have one leg. Fuck out of here with that shit.
What you say is universally false because my own individual experience contradicts it.
You said “Europe specifically”. I’m not European. You’re wrong q.e.d
I don’t advocate blocking people normally. But what you just said was so monumentally, aggressively, arrogantly stupid, I think it might actually be dangerous to my health to see anything else you write. Bye.
3 adverbs before stupid, that’s my new record 😎
Liberal in this context is used to refer to the political and economic structure that is liberal democracy; not necessarily the western social definition of liberal.
Conservatives are liberals because they support the status quo that is liberal democracy
edit: this sounded like I was disagreeing with you, but I was just trying to add context so the joke was legible. I completely agree with your comment
OP is addressing both definitions.
“Liberals” (in the American bipartisan usage of the word) in the US think of themselves as the counterpart to “conservatives”, but leftists regard them both as liberals in the classical sense as mentioned.
It’s a cynical jab at the american liberal self-identity, because their self-image is primarily defined by their opposition to conservatives but this is suggesting they are actually the same.
Leftists saying Dems and Republicans are the same
Usually when I read “both sides are the same”, it’s a blue conservative like you trying to make people critical of the Democratic party seem unreasonable.
Both sides are capitalist and conservative, but there are differences for sure. Dont you want more differences?
If you wanna really shut up those people bitching from the sidelines, the best way to do so is to put them in the game! Force them to show us how to do things since it’s so easy and they have it all figured out.
Switching away from first past the post voting allows people to vote for who represents them best while still counting their vote against those they dont want to win. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoiler effect exists.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
Republicans are moving to make alternative electoral systems illegal in their states. Why would you want to use the same voting system republicans prefer?
More political parties means a higher percentage of the population is represented by their choices in the voting booth. More people involved in the electoral process, more people engaged.
Its a win win win all around for not just the people, but also for the democratic party. More people voting means more democratic votes. The numbers dont lie. So what’s the hold up blue states?
Electoral reform needs to be the number one priority for every democrat. This is a existential threat to our nation, so we must use EVERY tool at our disposal. No more waiting.
Consider starting a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
Republicans are moving to make alternative electoral systems illegal in their states. Why would you want to use the same voting system republicans prefer?
Because if we stop using FPTP but they keep using FPTP, they will win every presidential election for the rest of all time? That seriously never occurred to you? We’re splitting votes in blue states but they’re consolidating them in red states. It needs to happen everywhere at the same time.
What a terrible suggestion. Seriously, you didn’t see the huge, obvious flaw here?
Libs insisting a slightly less bad thing is actually a good thing
Blyat
No, but some users on Lemmy, especially hexbear or lemmy_ml, use Liberal as a slur for Capitalist and they go on long rants about how Liberals and Nato are the devil while they touch themselves to the thought of going down on Xi Jinping.
This post is just pro-CCP Propoganda.
“Hey guys, isn’t a little concerning how the vast majority of our politics have been concentrated into a very small segment of the Overton window such that the only real party disparities are an extremely small handful of key issues like abortion and gun rights?”
“Silence, cee cee pee shill!”
Sure dog. Everything is fine. Blame your insecurities on China.
their “liberal” still means “neoliberal”, its just that theres not much further left than that over there.
Yes. In the US “liberal” means progressive for god knows why. Both the parties are liberal in the traditional sense but saying that confuses the yank mind
Liberal in America used to refer to the progressive left, which I understand is already different than most other countries who use Liberal to refer to Classical Liberals (which we generally just call conservatives or fiscal conservatives). However, to make things even more confusing, the term now mostly refers to centrists thanks to the, “Third Way,” Democrats. They were basically a mix of more Neo-Liberal fiscal policies with more progressive social policies; Bill Clinton is the textbook example, supporting gun control and early education while gutting welfare and deregulating Wall Street. This kind of Third Way Democrat basically became the standard of the party, which therefore made them standard of American Liberals. People farther left than these Liberals started referring to themselves as progressives or leftists instead.
So, tl:dr; Liberal used to be a progressive, but now mostly means left-leaning centrist.
The only people who think liberal means progressive are 18th century monarchists and liberals
Yup, no argument here.
I think it means libertarian, and I’ll go with that assumption until I get corrected.
Perhaps a European ideal of Libertarianism. US liberal politics is a facade of good will to hide the same pro-corporate agenda pushing that the other party does while hiding behind a facade of moral vitriol. US libertarians believe in enforcing one’s own freedoms with force rather than relying on government force to defend your rights. US leftists have no political base in our elections, by design.
Liberals and conservatives are different in ways that matter A LOT to liberals and conservatives. The differences don’t matter nearly as much to leftists, which pisses off liberals to no end.
Does it matter to them? There’s a whole demographic of morons that act like the differences aren’t clear as day. That a “left leaning” person would even consider voting R in 2024 is a horrific joke.
Some leftists view the US as the last of the old empires, built on violent conquest, genocide, exploitation, and stolen land. They would say that the world cannot progress so long as the United States exists, and they might vote R precisely because they think if R is in power it will accelerate the collapse of the US empire.
I don’t see any significant number of people doing this. That would be like demolishing a condemned building while you’re standing in it. Yeah it probably should come down, but there are still people inside.
I think about half the people who claim to be accelerationist are just foreign actors.
I think it’s more than half, but whatever the number the remaining few are fools without exception.
This might be true, but it’s a little tangential: leftists just don’t have a horse in the race. From a dialectical materialist perspective, neither party/candidate is substantially different. They are also quite aware and are resentful of the electoral strategies of the R/D divide that manufactures crisis around social disagreements instead of addressing the increasingly distressed working class conditions. They are well aware of the ‘threats’ posed by the R side, but they regard them as intentionally overblown and even somewhat encouraged by the D’s who are increasingly desperate not to address materialist issues for fear of loosing the support of capital.
Basically: they think the desperation of the democratic party is a bit of schadenfreude for enabling the R party and the orange cheto man to begin with, and they think the D’s need to feel a bit of electoral pain in order to come around on issues that are more central to leftist concerns.
Any leftist that doesn’t have a horse in the race is a fool and probably a queerphobe to boot.
Genocide against trans people is not a “social disagreement” and anyone who says otherwise is a bigot.
I hate to break this to you but the assault against trans people has already been happening and the Biden administration dgaf about it
https://www.pbs.org/video/over-400-anti-lgbtq-bills-proposed-2023-b14bsw/
This is such a weird hill to die on as a biden supporter because he’s quite famously catholic and has repeatedly flip-flopped on civil rights -gay marriage, integration, police reform, and abortion being prime examples. If libs never press the issue with him he will simply never do anything about it.
I think it’s incredibly telling that your own source doesn’t support your argument.Setting that aside, your argument is terrible because even if Biden doesn’t care about trans people, I’d prefer that to someone who hates them. This both-sides argument is dogshit.
Edit: when I replied, I missed the video and thought it was an incredibly short article. I’m not watching a long video.
Edit: when I replied, I missed the video and thought it was an incredibly short article. I’m not watching a long video.
Well then do me a favor and hold your tongue next time you get the urge to accuse someone of being a bigot or a queerphobe, because you clearly don’t give a fuck yourself.
This might be true, but it’s a little tangential
It probably is, and what you describe is probably more representative of what most leftists think about liberal/conservative politics, but I don’t think that matters much to liberals. I don’t think liberals care whether you are an R voting accelorationist leftist or a leftist who doesn’t engage out of indifference. The liberals see both actions as essentially helping the Republicans, which is an unthinkable crime, in their minds. It’s just two different groups with two different ideologies; ideologies that each group believes are mutually exclusive.
which is an unthinkable crime, in their minds
Is that even up for debate? Republicans want to genocide trans people. Why is it even a question about who to support.
Just a stupid thing: You could have been using that word like that on purpose for effect, which is fine, but just in case; They want to annihilate trans people, possibly eugenicize trans people, but you can’t commit genocide on trans people cause it’s not an ethnic group or nation.
Sorry, I had to get that out of my system or I wouldn’t be able to sleep.
Yea, no argument there. I just think people accuse leftists as being ‘accelerationist’ as a way to paint them as ‘just as bad’ as republicans, or worse-than since they acknowledge the damage being done but are actively rooting for it instead of being indifferent or in denial as a republican voter might be.
There are certainly leftists that fit that description, but I think it’s just a convenient way for some to dismiss them as crazies.
Some leftists
view the US as the last of the old empires, built on violent conquest, genocide, exploitation, and stolen land. They would say that the world cannot progress so long as the United States exists, and they might vote R precisely because they think if R is in power it will accelerate the collapse of the US empire.are the dumbest fuckers you will ever meet.Ftfy
Eww it smells like Tankie in here.
I fail to see how “Taxing the Rich” is the same as “Taxbreaks for the Rich” but I don’t feel the need to defend myself to people who shill for Putin.
Now this is a Certified Mark Fisher Capitalist Realism moment if I ever saw one.
Hi, I’m a Libertarian Socialist. I think it’s extremely damaging to act as though there’s little difference between progressive liberals and conservative liberals. Whether we like it or not, in America progressive liberals are our allies against fascism. Furthermore, the less bigoted conservatives are our allies against more bigoted conservatives. Being in favor of the police is bad. Being in favor of corporations is bad. Liberals believe and do so many bad things that it’s disgusting. But y’know what’s worse than having stupid ideas on tax policy? Shutting down the right to protest, killing minorities, and making it illegal to be trans. Don’t pretend they’re equally as bad; people are getting tired of it for good reasons.
I think it’s extremely damaging to act as though there’s little difference between progressive liberals and conservative liberals.
These two groups wouldn’t be in the same political party if we used Ranked Choice voting or something similar.
Whether we like it or not, in America progressive liberals are our allies against fascism
That’s funny, cause the “progressive liberals” in the US put a fascist dictatorship in charge of my country.
And what’s even more funny is that it doesn’t even narrow it down to a continent.
I’m sorry to hear that, but I have no way of verifying what you claim. Furthermore, it doesn’t change the calculations because I can’t think of a sufficiently contrived way for putting a conservative liberal or an out-and-out fascist in the place of the progressives could have possibly made the situation better.
Now THAT is a Certified Mark Fisher moment.
As usual…
I like your stuff
Anyone that isn’t immediately on board with getting rid of First Past The Post voting should be highly suspect. Why do blue states still use First Past The Post voting? Why are you so afraid of democracy Democrat’s?
No, I don’t need to type a 100,000 word essay on how Republicans are worse then democrats.
Username checks out
What gave it away?
That it is you. At this point, you should know unless people are right about you acting like you don’t understand.
They are being sarcastic. I take comments literally sometimes too. Happy to help.
Not my first interaction with them. I don’t think they are sarcastic. They like to act oblivious to what people call them out on. You can say they just like to be sarcastic in these situations but then they have to accept that people form their opinion based on their continuous sarcastically stated expressions and not their honest opinion. I take them by their word, because I have no reason to be generous anymore.
Have a little fun before you die, it passes the time. You think I don’t know I’m old and out of touch?
People seem to think they’ve discovered this revelation that I hadn’t discovered decades ago. These are just electrons being displayed on a screen with 1’s and 0’s , treat them as such.
The real revelations come from introspection, not recognizing the faults in others. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
You can do both. Identify problems in others and in yourself. Especially great, finding problems (because it is easier due to cognitive biases) and then asking yourself if you carry the same flaws.
I treat the 1’s and 0’s as what they are in this context: Encoded information.
It is not about being out of touch though. Being out of touch doesn’t make you post random political memes “without understand their meaning”. It makes you fail at understanding their meaning… Maybe… Sometimes but not posting them.
Lastly thanks for wishing me fun, I have it, don’t worry.
I know when I think of boomers, I think “probably likes to express opinions in favor of China / North Korea, and that voting for Democrats isn’t worthwhile, and a steady flow of memes they find on meme pages, and not much else aside from those three categories of things.” You know… boomer stuff.
I honestly think liberals and conversatives aren’t the same. Their motivations are fundamentally different but for whatever reason a lot of liberals are also conversatives as they are afraid of changes as those changes makes it less predictable and predictability is important when talking about liberties as there isn’t really any liberty in random events. At the same time, a lot of people are culturally conversatives even in left wing circles. So you got a lot of liberals who are afraid of change (especially because it is a threat to their portfolio) who think that e.g. women and men were equal by law anyway and companies should be allowed to promote whoever and if they are men, they are men. LIBERTY!!! The wife should stay at home but that is tradition and fits in their “liberty”. Now you might wonder how is a conversative different? Not at all in action but they don’t really care about liberty but about tradition and safety.
BUT down the line, if conversative fall into their favorite little fascist hole, liberals will be fighting conversatives because now they are affected.
The difference is that the liberal and the conservative will always combine forces to destroy the leftists when possible.
basically liberal comes from neoliberal and conservatives are neoliberal too.
basically liberal comes from neoliberal
The exact opposite, actually. Why are you spreading this bs?
what is it then? are liberals not free market capitalists?
isnt that precisely what the meme is about?
You’re comment has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It’s just some weird attempt to suggest that liberalism never existed before neoliberals, and further is just another word for the latter. A basic understanding of grammar is enough to understand that is complete nonsense.
i didnt suggest it at all.
im sorry but english is not my first language.
Yes, you did.
basically liberal comes from neoliberal
The word neoliberal comes from the word liberal, not the other way around. A small hint is the prefix “neo” (meaning “new” or “modified”) attached to the word “liberal”, which already existed.
what you guys call “liberals” today are essentially neoliberals
Your opinion doesn’t change how words work or where they came from.
No. What YOU guys (non Americans) call liberals are essentially neoliberals.
Liberals in America are a very different political ideology than in Europe. Liberals in America believe in strong regulation, powerful government, and broad freedoms for individuals while increasing both taxation and government services. They want to rein in free-market capitalism.
Trolls on lemmy LOVE to exploit he nearly opposite meanings of the terms to try to convince low-info people like you that the bad guys and the good guys are actually the same.
If English isn’t your first language, then I recommend you don’t try to tell native English speakers how their own words work.
“Liberal comes from neoliberal” is just wrong.
except i wasnt talking about words?
us liberals are neoliberals
also i can speak this shitty language whichever way i feel like i want to tyvm
