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The Hyperloop was never meant to be built. Elon Musk admitted it was all about fueling opposition to California’s high-speed rail project so it would get canceled.
He never planned to improve transportation; he just wants to keep people trapped in cars.
https://newrepublic.com/article/174089/big-tech-watching-drive
#tech #transport #elonmusk #transportation #hyperloop #trains
Part of the “EV Problem” is that they’re trying to solve the problem of ICE vehicles as they exist today using electric cars. This is because everything is set up for big ICE cars. The problem to be solved in that case is trying to replicate 100 years of ICE technology including highly efficient long distance travel whose range can be recovered in a few minutes at a fueling station. Since it’s not possible to reasonably solve that problem with current technology, oligarchs can collect billions of dollars of money trying to build the holy grail of ICE replacement EVs.
The vision I have for EVs is completely different, and possible with current technology, and would improve the quality of life for a lot more people, and would be better for the environment in the long run.
A friend of mine is a Chinese national, he grew up in China. When he was in high school, they had these 3 wheeled electric vehicles people would drive around. They even had enough room that some people would go into business as a local taxi service, picking people up and taking them wherever they wanted to go. Eventually the existence of these vehicles embarrassed the local government so they cracked down on them.
Those vehicles are available online today, and a fully enclosed version is available for a few thousand dollars, no additional tech required.
So my vision is promoting and opening the regulatory field for small, low speed (60km/h or less), weatherproof EVs with a relatively low range (100km or so) that you can buy for less than $10k (a battery powered heater would be good for regions with particularly bad weather). In my view, something with an easily removable battery would be ideal, since on cold days you could bring the battery inside with you instead of trying to deal with cold weather and chargers in spots without power cords.
Since it’d be slower and lighter, I expect we’d be able to reduce the regulations about drivers as well, and the insurance requirements. A low cost to buy, low cost to own, low cost and difficulty to operate personal vehicle that uses significantly less material would improve the lives of many people who presently don’t have personal transportation for much of the year.
To accomplish it, you don’t need subsidies, just deregulate so it’s easy to manufacture, easy to sell, easy to buy, easy to own, easy to use.
Compare that with giving billions of dollars collected from regular Joes to a billionaire so he can make impractical luxury cars for the 1%.
Basically an enclosed golf cart. Unfortunately our roads are built for cars. Crash test safety is another issue. Still causes the same congestion really (we’re not going to make lanes narrower). You’ll likely still need insurance. I can’t see it happening.
E-bikes I can see happening. We already need separate bike paths, you can use the same for normal bike and e-bikes. No insurance. Much less congestion.
Not really, If you line them up, you can fit 4 of these vehicles in the same space as a F350. 2 in the same space as a regular sedan.
If you allow lane splitting, then that’s 8 and 4.
Crash test safety is another issue… You’ll likely still need insurance. I can’t see it happening.
This is actually the biggest problem with these vehicles. They aren’t classified as cars in most states, they are classified as motorcycles. Which means to legally drive one you (often) need a special license. It’s the regulations around these things that makes them unfeasible.
We need a new class of motor vehicle for them to make sense. 50mph max speed and lower safety standard and licensing requirements (ideally, available with a regular license).
3 seconds is speed dependent and congestion is a function of the speed slowing down due to too much traffic (Or a wreck/something bottle necking the traffic).
When everything goes down to 5/10mph, there will be some pretty major space savings and when things are moving at full speed, congestion isn’t a problem.
I’d say you can have congestion at speed. And you have congestion at traffic lights (this idea won’t be going on freeways) because of the amount of vehicles, which this doesn’t change, and because there is a delay in the next vehicle going, which this doesn’t change.
Too much traffic as in too many vehicles, which this doesn’t change.
The space length savings is really miniscule in the grand picture.
Upgraded an e bike with a LI ion battery last year. Not big enough for what I’m talking about but that one’s super light so something several times heavier could still be quite luggable with a shoulder strap.
Aside from the margin differences, there’s also the fact that companies make what the consumer will buy. The median American consumer is simply not interested in the type of vehicle described above. Outside of major city centers the US is still largely suburban and spread out and while I would personally love to see the same thing as the poster above in more densely populated areas, general mass adoption would require a significant paradigm shift on the part of the consumer.
Very interesting take, I can agree with a lot of it.
I live in Germany and for a few years now, you can buy a version of the Citroen Ami (there is an Opel Version here which is the exact same ‘car’ but with more marketing in Germany, called the ‘Rocks E’). The car has about 75km or range (prob lably 60 realistically), two seats, is fully enclosed, has a heater - decent little thing if you do mostly short trips.
It’s built to be easily repairable, many parts are used multiple times in the vehicle and basically it’s all just plastic trim around a steel frame.
I’ve seriously considered it since I live in a rural area but most of my trips are 5-10km, I work from home.
It’s not regulated like a car, it does not need car insurance and isn’t taxed, and is therefore significantly cheaper to run. You can charge basically with any wall outlet, it doesn’t fast charge anyway.
In Germany, you can legally drive this car at 16 years of age with a license.
The downside? Aside from being a less comfortable overall experience, you can’t go faster than 45 km/h. That is just a tad too slow for my taste, since rural streets here allow for either 100 or 70, I’d like to be less of a hindrance all the time. I think in a city, this would be fine, you can’t go faster than 50 most of the time anyway.
The price for one of these to purchase is around 8.000 euros, that’s not huge but you can get very decent used cars for less money, that’s probably why these won’t catch on here. But I do like the concept , just maybe let me go 60 in it
They come in between electric bikes and proper cars, both of which have their advantages over what you propose. In the city I’d rather take an electric bike and for any real range, or for carrying shit, I’d rather have a real car than a crampwagon.
Unlike most people, I’ve lived as an adult with just a bike. Finished college and started my career and worked for quite a while without a car.
You think you’d be ok with just a bike, but then it rains, or it snows, or it’s a heatwave, or it’s a cold snap. The bike is ideal when it’s ideal, but it isn’t usually ideal. Especially when you live in non ideal locations, which many people do.
And as for a car, sure if you have unlimited resources it’s a great choice. But most people don’t have unlimited resources. If they can make it to the supermarket and back and make it to work and back with an inexpensive alternative, a lot of people will use it as long as it’s ok to.
For a surprisingly large class of people, a car isn’t even an option – even if they had a car given to them, they need insurance and gas, and licensing and oil changes and new tires and eventually you’re walking.
A used car that runs is like 200 euros. Okay, maybe 500 now that inflation happened. They’re not that unaffordable, but they do require the owner to be resourceful and learn some DIY skills. Tires can be bought used. When I was in university and had no job, I got a set of used Continentals with one summer left in them for 16 euros and only spent real money on tires for the winter, when summer tires (or all seasons as people in non-snowy areas know them) wouldn’t work in my climate anyway.
Someone who can’t afford a used car can’t really afford a minicar EV that starts with maybe 50 miles of range and then slowly works its way down as the battery dies. There’s just way less margin for battery degradation than on a bigger EV. You’ll have to replace the battery in just a few years and it’s going to be way more expensive than getting some old Volkswagen diesel engine from a junkyard for 50€.
I just don’t see what the market for those vehicles is. It’s not poor people, poor people don’t buy new vehicles. It’s not the middle class, the middle class would rather buy something that can fill 100% of their transportation needs rather than 80% of their transportation needs.
Are you sure you’ve looked at a used car in the past decade? (Or maybe the problem is that American policies like cash for clunkers have left the entire continent with unreasonably expensive used cars… Last time I looked at used cars was like 2 weeks ago, and it was absurd. Something with 300,000km going for $15k)
My first vehicle was 500 bucks (and was a piece of junk but I loved it) but I don’t even see anything remotely like that anymore.
It’s an American problem mostly, yes. These are the available cars in my country and this is far from the cheapest site because it actually requires money for keeping your ad up. Most will run on require minor repairs, some might require major repairs, but it’s a risk you take when you’re poor. My first car broke down a couple of times, but I think the most money it ever required for a real breakdown was 25 euros for a distributor rotor + some dude’s labour in diagnosing and replacing it (with a part he literally had in his garage). It was an Audi with an inline 5 engine for about 500 euros, so far less common than something like a 1.9 tdi Passat too.
Cash for clunkers could’ve done some good if it’d been done after EVs became available for the mainstream and required you to buy an EV with the rebate. Unfortunately, it didn’t even require you to get a particularly efficient car. So not only did it make old cars unaffordable, it didn’t improve average emissions or fuel economy as much as it could have.
I’m in Canada but the problem is the same up here.
If our used car market looked like this, then I’d totally agree with you that the small cheap EVs wouldn’t have much of a chance. Looks a lot like pre-gfc prices!
I have a completely different stance on EVs.
Part of the “EV Problem” is that they’re trying to solve the problem of ICE vehicles as they exist today using electric cars. This is because everything is set up for big ICE cars. The problem to be solved in that case is trying to replicate 100 years of ICE technology including highly efficient long distance travel whose range can be recovered in a few minutes at a fueling station. Since it’s not possible to reasonably solve that problem with current technology, oligarchs can collect billions of dollars of money trying to build the holy grail of ICE replacement EVs.
The vision I have for EVs is completely different, and possible with current technology, and would improve the quality of life for a lot more people, and would be better for the environment in the long run.
A friend of mine is a Chinese national, he grew up in China. When he was in high school, they had these 3 wheeled electric vehicles people would drive around. They even had enough room that some people would go into business as a local taxi service, picking people up and taking them wherever they wanted to go. Eventually the existence of these vehicles embarrassed the local government so they cracked down on them.
Those vehicles are available online today, and a fully enclosed version is available for a few thousand dollars, no additional tech required.
So my vision is promoting and opening the regulatory field for small, low speed (60km/h or less), weatherproof EVs with a relatively low range (100km or so) that you can buy for less than $10k (a battery powered heater would be good for regions with particularly bad weather). In my view, something with an easily removable battery would be ideal, since on cold days you could bring the battery inside with you instead of trying to deal with cold weather and chargers in spots without power cords.
Since it’d be slower and lighter, I expect we’d be able to reduce the regulations about drivers as well, and the insurance requirements. A low cost to buy, low cost to own, low cost and difficulty to operate personal vehicle that uses significantly less material would improve the lives of many people who presently don’t have personal transportation for much of the year.
To accomplish it, you don’t need subsidies, just deregulate so it’s easy to manufacture, easy to sell, easy to buy, easy to own, easy to use.
Compare that with giving billions of dollars collected from regular Joes to a billionaire so he can make impractical luxury cars for the 1%.
Basically an enclosed golf cart. Unfortunately our roads are built for cars. Crash test safety is another issue. Still causes the same congestion really (we’re not going to make lanes narrower). You’ll likely still need insurance. I can’t see it happening.
E-bikes I can see happening. We already need separate bike paths, you can use the same for normal bike and e-bikes. No insurance. Much less congestion.
Not really, If you line them up, you can fit 4 of these vehicles in the same space as a F350. 2 in the same space as a regular sedan.
If you allow lane splitting, then that’s 8 and 4.
This is actually the biggest problem with these vehicles. They aren’t classified as cars in most states, they are classified as motorcycles. Which means to legally drive one you (often) need a special license. It’s the regulations around these things that makes them unfeasible.
We need a new class of motor vehicle for them to make sense. 50mph max speed and lower safety standard and licensing requirements (ideally, available with a regular license).
Account for the space between them when traveling at speed (what is it, 3 seconds between vehicles?) and really it’s the same congestion.
3 seconds is speed dependent and congestion is a function of the speed slowing down due to too much traffic (Or a wreck/something bottle necking the traffic).
When everything goes down to 5/10mph, there will be some pretty major space savings and when things are moving at full speed, congestion isn’t a problem.
I’d say you can have congestion at speed. And you have congestion at traffic lights (this idea won’t be going on freeways) because of the amount of vehicles, which this doesn’t change, and because there is a delay in the next vehicle going, which this doesn’t change.
Too much traffic as in too many vehicles, which this doesn’t change.
The
spacelength savings is really miniscule in the grand picture.Have you ever actually carried a battery with any meaningful capacity from a transport perspective?
Nobody is just deciding to grab their trike battery and carrying to their upstairs apartment like it’s a twelve pack.
This is why e-bikes are better.
Upgraded an e bike with a LI ion battery last year. Not big enough for what I’m talking about but that one’s super light so something several times heavier could still be quite luggable with a shoulder strap.
Why would companies make that when they could make a 40k car that would sell similarly? I think that’s the issue right now
Aside from the margin differences, there’s also the fact that companies make what the consumer will buy. The median American consumer is simply not interested in the type of vehicle described above. Outside of major city centers the US is still largely suburban and spread out and while I would personally love to see the same thing as the poster above in more densely populated areas, general mass adoption would require a significant paradigm shift on the part of the consumer.
Very interesting take, I can agree with a lot of it. I live in Germany and for a few years now, you can buy a version of the Citroen Ami (there is an Opel Version here which is the exact same ‘car’ but with more marketing in Germany, called the ‘Rocks E’). The car has about 75km or range (prob lably 60 realistically), two seats, is fully enclosed, has a heater - decent little thing if you do mostly short trips. It’s built to be easily repairable, many parts are used multiple times in the vehicle and basically it’s all just plastic trim around a steel frame. I’ve seriously considered it since I live in a rural area but most of my trips are 5-10km, I work from home. It’s not regulated like a car, it does not need car insurance and isn’t taxed, and is therefore significantly cheaper to run. You can charge basically with any wall outlet, it doesn’t fast charge anyway. In Germany, you can legally drive this car at 16 years of age with a license. The downside? Aside from being a less comfortable overall experience, you can’t go faster than 45 km/h. That is just a tad too slow for my taste, since rural streets here allow for either 100 or 70, I’d like to be less of a hindrance all the time. I think in a city, this would be fine, you can’t go faster than 50 most of the time anyway.
The price for one of these to purchase is around 8.000 euros, that’s not huge but you can get very decent used cars for less money, that’s probably why these won’t catch on here. But I do like the concept , just maybe let me go 60 in it
That’s awesome, if it was an option here I’d have one in my driveway literally today.
Decent used cars are way more expensive here. I was shocked to see vehicles with 300,000km going for 15,000 bucks.
I don’t see them being very popular.
They come in between electric bikes and proper cars, both of which have their advantages over what you propose. In the city I’d rather take an electric bike and for any real range, or for carrying shit, I’d rather have a real car than a crampwagon.
Unlike most people, I’ve lived as an adult with just a bike. Finished college and started my career and worked for quite a while without a car.
You think you’d be ok with just a bike, but then it rains, or it snows, or it’s a heatwave, or it’s a cold snap. The bike is ideal when it’s ideal, but it isn’t usually ideal. Especially when you live in non ideal locations, which many people do.
And as for a car, sure if you have unlimited resources it’s a great choice. But most people don’t have unlimited resources. If they can make it to the supermarket and back and make it to work and back with an inexpensive alternative, a lot of people will use it as long as it’s ok to.
For a surprisingly large class of people, a car isn’t even an option – even if they had a car given to them, they need insurance and gas, and licensing and oil changes and new tires and eventually you’re walking.
A used car that runs is like 200 euros. Okay, maybe 500 now that inflation happened. They’re not that unaffordable, but they do require the owner to be resourceful and learn some DIY skills. Tires can be bought used. When I was in university and had no job, I got a set of used Continentals with one summer left in them for 16 euros and only spent real money on tires for the winter, when summer tires (or all seasons as people in non-snowy areas know them) wouldn’t work in my climate anyway.
Someone who can’t afford a used car can’t really afford a minicar EV that starts with maybe 50 miles of range and then slowly works its way down as the battery dies. There’s just way less margin for battery degradation than on a bigger EV. You’ll have to replace the battery in just a few years and it’s going to be way more expensive than getting some old Volkswagen diesel engine from a junkyard for 50€.
I just don’t see what the market for those vehicles is. It’s not poor people, poor people don’t buy new vehicles. It’s not the middle class, the middle class would rather buy something that can fill 100% of their transportation needs rather than 80% of their transportation needs.
Are you sure you’ve looked at a used car in the past decade? (Or maybe the problem is that American policies like cash for clunkers have left the entire continent with unreasonably expensive used cars… Last time I looked at used cars was like 2 weeks ago, and it was absurd. Something with 300,000km going for $15k)
My first vehicle was 500 bucks (and was a piece of junk but I loved it) but I don’t even see anything remotely like that anymore.
It’s an American problem mostly, yes. These are the available cars in my country and this is far from the cheapest site because it actually requires money for keeping your ad up. Most will run on require minor repairs, some might require major repairs, but it’s a risk you take when you’re poor. My first car broke down a couple of times, but I think the most money it ever required for a real breakdown was 25 euros for a distributor rotor + some dude’s labour in diagnosing and replacing it (with a part he literally had in his garage). It was an Audi with an inline 5 engine for about 500 euros, so far less common than something like a 1.9 tdi Passat too.
Cash for clunkers could’ve done some good if it’d been done after EVs became available for the mainstream and required you to buy an EV with the rebate. Unfortunately, it didn’t even require you to get a particularly efficient car. So not only did it make old cars unaffordable, it didn’t improve average emissions or fuel economy as much as it could have.
I’m in Canada but the problem is the same up here.
If our used car market looked like this, then I’d totally agree with you that the small cheap EVs wouldn’t have much of a chance. Looks a lot like pre-gfc prices!
So… these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GG1RC7GV0Y
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Good bot.
Exactly that sort of thing.
Seems crazy, but most people don’t need a giant expensive car, and many people could get a vehicle if that wasn’t the only real choice out there.