You do realise that meat-eaters eat animals that were killed for them to be eaten?

Yup. Animals that lived lives in the first place because they were going to be eaten. Why should anyone have an ethical problem with that? But honestly, I don’t think it’s just “were killed for them to be eaten” to you. I live in a deer population control zone. Hunters have a critical task of preventing deer overpopulation from devastating the area. Got any problems with the venison steak I had last week from deer that HAD to be killed?

Please explain to me how this is more empathetic than posting a meme that triggered some meat-eaters.

More empathetic? Because I’m not an anti-natalist. I know those animals would not have been born if not farmed. This is not a vacuum choice between “cows die” and “cows live”. It never was, and it never will be. I know that most of them live better lives and die easier than their non-domesticated counterparts. Ever watch a cat play with a mouse, slowly torturing it to death? My local farm (plants) have animals that do exactly that every day with the goal of killing off pest animals so they won’t destroy the harvest (a single pest animal like a squirrel can destroy 40 or 50 tomatoes in an hour).

Let’s go another way. Statistically, odds are pretty good that my death will be 100x worse than how a farm animal dies. So no, me being ok that death exists in our world is NOT a lack of empathy. You don’t get to make up my morals for me. The way I see it, giving farm animals a peaceful life is the height of empathy… so I look at you (your words) “triggering some meat-eaters” and note that statistically many of the people you go out of your way to “trigger” are going to end up dying long and painful battles with cancer. My view of empathy? Give them just a LITTLE bit more bloody peace while they’re alive.

Here’s my empathy. I fight for animal right laws. I strongly supported the free range chicken law that just passed in my state. I reject unethical and inhumane ways of treating and killing animals. But I’m not uneducated. I know how farming works. I know how the delicate relationship between agriculture and horticulture, while not perfect, leads to less death and less environmental impact than EITHER side of those alone.

Vegans are letting some crayola-colored dream be the enemy of good. And it’s nothing more than flat-earther, tinfoil, antivax gibberish to me. And I don’t care as long as they leave people alone.

That is the most insane sentence I’ve read. Vegans aren’t slaughtering and eating you

Do you actually think you’ll change anyone’s mind by calling their well-conceived ethical frameworks “insane”? THIS is why you get the reputation of being smug. My life’s knowledge, my grasp of philosophy, it’s all worthless shit to you because I am morally convinced that it’s acceptable to kill and eat animals. It doesn’t matter why I’m convinced that (and I’ve learned the hard way it’s not worth anyone’s time to discuss the reasoning or the why’s). I am beneith you.

Calling vegans “smug” is nicer than calling them dehumanizing and ignorant.

What empathy do you have for animals you choose to exploit and kill for taste preference?

As I said in another comment, proselytizing zealous vegans like to strawman non-vegans as all sitting there with a piece of bloody steak on a fork saying “I know some poor cute fluffy animal died a painful death for this but I LOVE the taste of murder”. That’s not us. If you can’t see that, perhaps the first step in your recovery is to actually start to.

Vegans want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn’t mean we don’t care about those people, but it does usually mean that we have to argue with them.

As do I, and I have taken a lot of abuse from vegans over the years standing up to those bad things.

And more… That is Word. For. Word. what that guy on the subway says about my gay friends divorcing each other. Word. For. Bloody. Word.

This guy fucks his own mom!

I think if you’re going to post things on the internet you should have to build the device you’re using to do that yourself. And write all the software needed to do it.

Or maybe it’s silly to put arbitrary moral requirements on other people. If you think it’s wrong to eat meat, sure whatever. But trying to set some arbitrary goalpost that you know isn’t feasible to make it so something you already think is morally wrong to be extra morally wrong because it’s hypocritical or whatever is kinda weird.

I actually hate how distanced we are from meat in general, and agree that in general people should have the opportunity to kill their own meat.

That said, here’s a real counterpoint. PTSD. I know people with severe PTSD from witnessing some unspeakable brutality like the violent death of a loved one or friend. Nobody should ever ask a PTSD patient to kill an animal themselves. Which is the problem with the whole “have to kill animals” thing entirely. Too many people have some traumatic event.

Honestly, I think that’s where a lot of vegans come from. I have an extended family member who snapped after watching one of those vegan documentaries. She was weird before then for reasons none of us really knew, but she starved herself until she was hospitalized for malnutrition and her hair started falling out. When she got out, she wouldn’t eat meat anymore and wouldn’t talk about it. She isn’t a “vegetarian” in any good meaning of the word, constantly struggling with nutritional issues and avoiding meat entirely because she can’t bring herself to eat it. It has become a quiet ethical thing to her, but it’s more than that.

So IMO, we gotta cure PTSD before making people kill. I DO think we should offer “kill and butcher your own meat” as an elective field trip in school. I got to visit my first farm in middle-school and it really helped give me a balanced view of the world of food. Even if it was just a chicken, if I could’ve killed my own, cleaned it, and cooked it, it would’ve really rounded out my head on the topic back then.

Sorry, I am not convinced. Someone who can’t find umami flavour in plant based food easily isn’t a good cook. You perhaps reach a satisfying result when you stay in your area of expertise, which is cooking meat based dishes. That might make your job a cook, but it certainly does not make you good at it.

But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing

I am very interested in how you argue it’s “ethically good” to breed lifeforms just to have them suffer and then eat them.

Huh. Weird.

You have to catch the possum first, then corn feed it for about a month or two to get the nasty taste out of the meat before you eat it. So basically, turn it into a pet, then kill and eat it.

Well said, I’m glad to finally meet someone with your views that is able to express themselves.

I would say no to your question as those beliefs are contradicting science and they could cause harm to people. My beliefs do not contradict established science. I would also point out that not all rural Appalachian people are bigots, but I understand the point you were making with it. The difference in our views is that I don’t see animals as people. I understand their intelligent, and I believe some may be sentient such as elephants and whales. I am against killing elephants and whales.

If you are curious to see it from my perspective, participate in a somewhat poor analogy. Imagine someone came out and said they believe that killing a tree is the same as committing murder, that trees are people. After all, we have proven that they communicate with other trees and with mycelium in very complex and even selfless ways, probably to an even higher degree than we have yet discovered. This person is adamant that the trees are being oppressed and that we need to stop farming trees for paper products. They say that you are a bad person for causing unnecessary suffering and destruction to trees. But imagine that you disagree with them, you do not see trees as people. You understand that trees are living and communicating and you would like to see less cut down, but you still use them for firewood to heat your house. You see it as no less humane to grow them and cut them down than it is to let them die from burning to death or being eaten alive by bugs or disease.

Not the best example, and there are plenty of holes you could point out of you feel so inclined, but hopefully the core of it can grant atleast a small glimpse into how I see the issue we are discussing.

More info on the trees talking thing. I find it fascinating that they have a whole complex economy going on underground, trading and even investing resources. DYK that as a last act when a tree is dying, it gives its resources to saplings that are of a different species than itself before it goes. There’s some good podcast on it “radiolab, from tree to shining tree”. Also an quick Google search article. https://www.nationalforests.org/blog/underground-mycorrhizal-network

Wait, fish can eat other fish, but I can’t? How’s that fair?

How many people do you estimate could be fed with grass-fed cows? What about the usage of water? What is with the thousands of hectare of forest that have been rode for pastures? What about the water you need for this type of farming? What about the fact that, if everybody would switch to a meatless diet you would need much less farmland overall?

I know why you do not want to get into hard numbers. Because they would refute your weak arguments.

I disagree with the comment on the point about it being a leftist naivety, but it is naïve nonetheless. Life feeds on life and all that. That they’re sentient doesn’t matter, some people argue plants are sentient too (not that I necessarily agree)

He has “anarchist” in the nickname lol

My arguement is if you want to reduce crulety, you have options to do so in your own life, which are far more productive than simply yelling at people online for not doing it the exact same way as you. You refusing to work somewhere you can support less exploitative practices because your comfortable in your job is no different then someone telling you they’re not changing their diet because it works for them. You have the means and the capacity to change yourselves, yet you’d rather yell at people online to change themselves.

Imagine being a pro-capitalism vegan lmao

You know there’s a lot of valid ethical frameworks that do not espouse veganism?

It’s safer to say “YOUR ethics aren’t a concern to him”, or to me. There’s a lot of philosophers who eat meat. And it’s not hypocritical. They just think you’re wrong. You aren’t God (and even if you were, God doesn’t get to decide ethics).

As for adverse health effects, I have known dozens of ex-vegans, one with an degree in nutrition, who left veganism despite their ethics, for health reasons. Generally speaking, it’s easier to “accidentally” have an reasonably ok diet with a full balanced mix of foods than it is for a vegan to intentionally have one.

or environmental impacts of the meat industry?

This is actually an incredibly complicated accusation, and unless you enter the conversation with the conclusion in mind, there’s not enough evidence/arguments out there to show that it’s “the meat industry” that’s the real environmental problem with our food industry. As someone who has shared a table with experts on a few occasions and then done some of my own armchair research, I’m convinced the two real problems are non-local food and factory farming. The former creates polluting logicistical overhead in transport and over-storage of food (fossil fuels for driving, non-recyclable plastics, etc) and the latter in willful destruction of environment to get more output cheaper, when we have plenty of room and plenty of margins to “do it right”

As for “to do it right”, part of doing it right is acknowledging that we have a compost/manure shortfall against crops NOT because we’re not producing enough manure but because we don’t have localized meat farms balanced in each area around their crop farms, and/or that it’s considered acceptable to use fertilizers despite the presence of manure that would better fertilize a crop. So the better answer? Local meat, and transition away from factory farms. And if you’ve got the land and the courage for it, keep some chickens for eggs and goats for meat/manure.

My 2c anyway.

or is all about how delicious steak is to you?

AND it is about how delicious a steak is to me. Have you ever walked a local farm with the people who do all the work? Helped them pick out the pigs for the meal? Known the love that is involved in the whole process, and the fact that the animals have it 100x better than they’d have had it in nature.

So yes, there is nothing like cutting into that pork chop having a REAL appreciation for the pig’s sacrifice, a real appreciation for the work everyone put into it all.

So ethics aren’t a concern for you

Quite the opposite actually, as a farmer raising my animals ethically is a daily fact concern. I just don’t buy into your supposition that raising them is inherently unethical.

How about the adverse health effects

If I live long enough that eating meat is the primary thing that got me killed, I see that as an absolute win. I like riding motorcycles, I also like beer and sugar and baked goodies. I fully expect something else to get me well before a lifetime of eating meat has the chance. And I’m okay with that, I’d rather live a few years less and get to keep partaking in the things I enjoy. Plenty of people live into their 80s without giving up meat, and living into my 80s sounds plenty long to me.

environmental impacts of the meat industry

I believe that until nuclear is being seriously considered as the solution for clean electricity, then it isn’t worth worrying about which of my habits are supposedly causing the climate crisis.

Any considerations there, or is all about how delicious steak is to you?

I wouldn’t say it’s “all about” how delicious steak is. But I would say that in all of your examples “less steak” doesn’t seem to be the most prudent place to start, or to consider at all.

I’m in New England. Beef prices have more than doubled in the last 5 years, and Pork went from cheaper than chicken to almost as expensive as beef, with most local restaurants having larger price hikes on their pork dishes than any other dish.

Scallops on the other hand are down 50% wholesale. If only I weren’t allergic to them (and I have Scallopers in my family, so I can get them for free). I remember local seafood places when the scallops were the only non-lobster dish over $20. Now, I can get a scallop plate for $14 at a restaurant where the swordfish is $27.