• OpenStars@discuss.online
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    6 months ago

    He can refuse to enforce their bullshit.

    Can he though? Well anyway, he definitely could do more, no question about that.

    What bothers me is this entitled thinking, like ā€œwe deserve better candidatesā€ - okay, yeah, obviously, but we wonā€™t get those until we make them. AOC, Bernie, there actually are several who are good, but apparently for some (whatever) reason they arenā€™t ā€œviableā€? Hence why Biden is there, instead of one of them.

    (And you even ran - damn thatā€™s impressive! To be absolutely clear, I am not calling you one of these ā€œentitled thinkersā€, b/c you actually stood up and tried to DO SOMETHING about it, first-hand - kudos!)

    Biden offers the good that can be done, rather than what should be - to use the Batman phrase, the politician that America needs, rather than the one it deservesā€¦ or whatever?

    There is also that phrase, attributed to Otto von Bismarck, that ā€œPolitics is the art of the possible, the attainable ā€” the art of the next best.ā€ Put another way, the whole thing is a matter of pragmatism, instead of idealism.

    And in every other situation, Biden has been the pragmatist. Gas prices, unionization of railway workers, inflation, etc. So I wondered if heā€™s doing something similar here too, even if it looks like 10-D chess to us, and based on his other past successes (that the media refuses to highlight, b/c they are ā€œboringā€), I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    But my knowledge on this matter, especially lately, is shaky, so I could definitely be wrong there - perhaps this issue truly is the dividing line. I need to stop talking about that until I read up on the matter some more.

    Though one thing that wonā€™t ever change is that in the next upcoming election, we still only get the two choices though - Biden vs. Trump:-(. Itā€™s like: imagine a robber steals your wallet, and offers you either the cash or your ID cards back (apparently the credit cards arenā€™t on the table for negotiation), but what they want in return is for you to say ā€œpleaseā€ - what do you do? Take one, or the other, or just walk away and leave both behind? Fighting the US government does not seem an effective option. We can cry about it, maybe go away and train for decades (as Batman did:-P) with the thought of perhaps getting revenge, but in that moment, our choices are limited. As I understand it, that is pragmatism.

    • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      Unfortunately when faced with genocidal fascism, pragmatism looks an awful lot like appeasementā€¦ And after 40 years of appeasing the oligarchy while they slowly take away our rights, health, and wealth, I think people are almost ready to fight. Maybe not physicallyā€¦ But in any way they can.

      Which brings us to the fact that there are 3 choices in the upcoming electionā€¦ Trump, Biden, stay home (or 3rd party, but thatā€™s basically the same as staying home unfortunately)ā€¦ If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote theyā€™d be figuring out what it takes and doing itā€¦ Instead theyā€™re just following their already shown to fail bullying strategyā€¦ Itā€™s really irritating to see them seemingly willfully losing to Trump rather than go against their corporate mastersā€¦ Again

      The reason Trump is so popular is because heā€™s a protest vote. At least in the delusional minds of the maga crowd. He is certainly not a part of the oligarchy controlling the establishmentā€¦ Heā€™s his own oligarchy, and a dangerous one tooā€¦ But his followers are very dumb and very brainwashed. All they see is that heā€™s a way to fight against the establishment. The Dems needed to put up a protest candidate of their own. Utterly reject the establishment/oligarchy, and embrace the protestā€¦ Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.

      • OpenStars@discuss.online
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        6 months ago

        I think people are almost ready to fight

        Not in a useful way though. Conservatives fought, and therefore won the overturning of Roe v. Wade - they put in decades of effort to achieve that, and therefore did. They stood in solidarity, prior to Trump, and now the whole party is sliding QUICKLY and EXTREMELY Right-wards, to once again stand in solidarity at that new point.

        In contrast, liberals tend to eat their own - case in point, look at what we all are doing to Biden right now (me too just to a lesser degree than some others).

        And I am not even saying that is ā€œwrongā€ - that is simply the nature of the game when talking about ā€œcorrectnessā€. e.g., 1 + 1 = 2, but 1.9 and 2.1 donā€™t ā€œquiteā€ cut it, nor even 1.99 or 2.01, despite being so very, very close. Or letā€™s use an even more hyperbolic example to illustrate: suppose I ask a liberal what the answer is to the question of ā€œwhat is 1+1?ā€, and the Democrats step in to say that ā€œthe answer is +1,000ā€ (while ofc pocketing the other $998.00, b/c of corruption). Thatā€™s way offā€¦ but the answer that conservatives give is to kill your dog and fuck your mom, and then risk her life too b/c sheā€™s not allowed to have an abortion even despite the rape (and then the Republicans pocket not only $998.00 but $1,999,999.00, just b/c they can). So which is ā€œbetterā€? Are there alternatives? Is the answer given by the Democrats more ā€œcorrectā€, despite being so very, VERY wrong? TLDR on this point: they are both wrong, but not equally so.

        If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote theyā€™d be figuring out what it takes and doing itā€¦

        Yup.

        Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.

        Yup.

        The rich people - like HRC - are so disconnected from modern life, that they cannot conceive of what it is like to be a Millennial or a Gen-Z person, who looks forward to not just ā€œintern first, then real jobā€, but ā€œintern forever, b/c thatā€™s just all there is these days, stable job=never, ability to own a home=never (or is it never? either way it certainly looks that way now and shows no signs of improvingā€¦ literally ever, plus Social Security + Medicare are drying up and with that money have been already stolen from us, will literally never, ever, EVER be returnedā€¦)ā€. And HRCā€™s response to ALL of that was, in short: ā€œLife is good, letā€™s keep it that way, shall we?:-P PokeMon-go-to-the-polls, woot (please believe that Iā€™m just like you - one of the [insert your predefined categorization here] - and btw did you know I carry hot sauce in my purse at all times?)ā€.

        On the other hand, the Gaza situation is just the icing on the cake: regardless of the actual genocide going on there, it wonā€™t fix our economy. The latter involves terribly boring steps, many of which Biden seems to be taking? But the media wonā€™t report them, and I wouldnā€™t understand them myself anyway soā€¦ we are back to the ā€œJust trust me bro - I got this! (also Iā€™m totally not a senile old man-puppet propped up on crack to give speeches while the real work is done behind-the-scenes, which we cannot talk about for uhā€¦ reasons, but itā€™ll be good, this time, I promise, just vote for me and youā€™ll see what we have planned later!)ā€

        Also, are we even arguing anymore? :-P I think we agree on pretty much everything. Oh I remember, thereā€™s one more detail got us started: the difference between what I am saying vs. you is that we are not being offered a primary with which to pick a different approach. So when you say things like ā€œThe Dems needed toā€¦ā€ and ā€œIf Dems and Biden really wanted toā€¦ā€ and ā€œInstead theyā€™re justā€¦ Itā€™s really irritating toā€, my question is: now what? So you donā€™t like it - I donā€™t either - but what are we going to do about it? Yeah, thatā€™s what I thought - I have no clue either.:-( But Iā€™ve been wrong before - e.g. I thought no way would Trump win - so now I am just trying to strain my eyes open as wide as I can make them, to learn from whatever happens.

        • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          I appreciate your thoughtful response.

          Sadly the Republicanā€™s ā€œgrassrootsā€ orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get noneā€¦ Without funding I donā€™t know that thereā€™s much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now Iā€™ve moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I donā€™t see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.

          Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually theyā€™ll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothingā€¦ What about when theyā€™ve squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing theyā€™ve been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully itā€™s before millions die in the streets.

          • OpenStars@discuss.online
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            6 months ago

            I too walked away from not one but two cushy jobs, to try to become ā€œpart of the solutionā€. There are a lot of us who care, truly & deeply, and as you said willing to FIGHT! Sadly, I quickly discovered that I was a classic bleeding-heart liberal with more compassion than brains. I donā€™t know about you, but I at least was not a good leader, b/c while I meant well, I was going about things in an extremely naive manner. As most people do ofc, so I am not special in that regard at all. Though it did finally cause me to wake up and realize: the reason that we cannot save the world is that it does not WANT to be saved.

            People are too comfortable, but then when things get bad, they donā€™t suddenly turn their lives around and become everything that they previously were not!? I have heard SO MANY stories of people whose mother, father, sister, brother, and literally all immediate family members plus many slightly beyond that died of covid, but the survivors still went to Trump rallies and hoped that he would save them. ā€œFactsā€ were never what convinced these people to follow him, so still more facts that ran in contradiction to what they could plainly see with their very own eyes, and had a HUGE effect upon their lives, were not going to convince them to switch.

            And now Iā€™ve moved back to a large city environ - where sth like >90% of the people will vote Democrat, so my vote doesnā€™t count one bit, but despite knowing that, I am prioritizing myself right now, over the planet. Maybe after I pull myself together I will try again, though who wants to live in an area where doctors try their hardest to avoid? Anyway, Iā€™ve lost all faith in democracy - ā€œweā€ are not smart enough to lead ourselves, and therefore I am not even entirely certain that I am against oligarchy, communism, feudalism, etc. If democracy is to survive, then it needs toā€¦ ā€œsurviveā€, if you know what I mean? Like, disinformation is deadly to it, especially with such an uneducated populace as we have, so it either needs to adapt or else it will be discarded - no matter what we wish or hope for to the contrary.

            Conservatives have ā€œconvictionā€ behind their beliefs - enough to make what they want come to pass at any rate - and while I am not advocating for conservative belief structures, I am saying that if it is to be opposed, then it must be met with equally strong convictions, on our side. Which especially with the majority population beliving this way, should be relatively ā€œeasyā€ā€¦r-r-right? Except, even with a democratic majority, what got done? Wrt the Supreme Court, or gun control, or anything at all that you could name - what got done during that majority?!? Hence we lack convictions. Hence, unless that changes, we will continue to lose, every time.

            Which is why, as you pointed out, there is actually hope on the way. As people continue to get worse off, maybe theyā€™ll wake up? e.g. form unions. There was no hope until they were ready - b/c you can lead a horse to water but cannot force it to drink - but if they get ready thenā€¦?

            I have no gun. If bad stuff happens, I will simply die. I donā€™t mind - there are far worse things:-D.

            Millions will die. Possibly billions - not in the USA but I mean as a result of climate change, which is moving much faster than hoped. As usual, and like every movie ever, scientists were very gentle with their conservative estimations and only now are we getting higher precision bounds to realize that we arenā€™t all going to make it.

            Oh right, also, millions have died already - more than all wars combined - as a result of the pandemic, though this had to be inferred from the ā€œexcess deathā€ statistics since we refused to officially count them, and some states did everything possible to mislead and deflect the numbers (even the ā€œliberalā€ NYC iirc due to the senior home incidents). As Trump proved over & over again, he was for rioting in the streets, but I have to hand it to Biden, b/c whether for good or ill in the long-run, he did manage to calm things down considerably, in offering hope (false? weā€™ll see I suppose).

            • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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              6 months ago

              Unfortunately the only real convictions the Dems seem to have is ā€œprotect the rich at all costsā€ā€¦ They have some social issues stuff quite a ways behind that, but clearly theyā€™re willing to let it slide rather than fight (ie roe v Wade)ā€¦ They would definitely rather lose to Republicans, who at least have that same ā€˜protect the richā€™ conviction, than lose to progressives who would ā€œeatā€ the rich insteadā€¦ Even though they agree with progressives on the social issues

              • OpenStars@discuss.online
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                6 months ago

                Weā€™ve been dancing around it but I want to say explicitly: politicians are not ā€œthe sameā€ as the people that they represent.

                Conservatives for instance vote against and by and large act as if they believe that climate change is not happening, however Republican politicians - at the high end, i.e. federal even if not all the way down to every local area - know that it is happening, and it is merely a farce when they say that it is not. ā€œClimate change is not happeningā€ is their way of saying ā€œwell of course itā€™s happening, but we choose to protect ThE eCoNoMy first and foremostā€.

                Note that it is no accident that old retirees subsist nowadays on the tiny trickle from the stock market that keeps them going - so you canā€™t regulate the stock market b/c ā€œwonā€™t someone think of the old folks - what will happen to them!?ā€, despite how they may get a fraction of 1% while billion- and now trillionaires take the rest. Itā€™s like the rich use the elderly as a necromancer uses zombies - in a manner called ā€œmeat shieldā€ in gaming terminology; but it happens irl too, e.g. Hamas hid behind school-children in an identical fashion. Anyway, in return, the elderly vote to keep tHe EcOnoMy first and foremost in their minds, thus sacrificing their children to become slaves, while taking care of themselves first & foremost.

                And in like manner, Democrats != liberals, with a few notable exceptions like Bernie Sanders and AOC, who ofc will never be allowed to become President or gain positions of real authority and power over the ones who hold true power.

                The principle itself is not even a bad thing necessarily - ideally, leaders should be MORE responsible than the average citizen that they represent, not less. But since we have so many people working from behind the scenes manipulating things unseen, politicians are not our ā€œleadersā€ these days, not truly, and instead have made themselves useful puppets that dance at the behest of their masters. Btw, this happens in literally every group that has ever existed, not even limited to human social ones, e.g. it happens in single-celled bacteria and even single-molecule proteins called prions such as those that cause mad cow disease, and probably photons (bundles of pure energy that donā€™t even have subatomic particles and thus have zero mass) do it too I dunno, Iā€™m just saying that itā€™s a natural law of the universe, at all scales.

                An extremely insightful video that I cannot recommend highly enough is the CGP Grey Rules for Rulers - that channel has excellent other resources too like a fantastic explanation of ranked-choice voting. Ngl, that video messed me up - I used to really want to change things, then I watched it and realize how difficult that task is to make happen. Now I am much less outspoken than I used to be, b/c I have sent myself back to school, while questioning everything that I once believed. We cannot fight the very laws of the UNIVERSE!! Which doesnā€™t mean that liberalism has no chance, but it does significantly narrow the scope of solutions that might actually be viable enough to work.

                Which is what gives me pause to lash out with instant hate against Bidenā€™s efforts to improve things. Maybe heā€™s worthy of that, or maybe not, but I would need to understand what heā€™s doing first, before I want to judge him. I spent years breaking down Trumpā€™s motivations btw, so I get what heā€™s trying to do, but I have not done that for Biden. Itā€™s exhausting:-(. I wish there were people I could trust that I could just follow, but who would that be - Bernie Sanders? He is an idealist, and while that works for his seat from Maine, it would not work on the global scale, with him as the Commander in Chief. As Obama said about him, he is a prophet in the wilderness, not a king who can make the hard choices.

                Anyway the forces involved are just so incredibly complex - what has worked since Americanā€™s founding seems unlikely to work in the future, as the implications of globalization and automation settle in. e.g. the likes of Jeff Bezos and the Military-Industrial Complex use the American government in both an offensive capacity to increase their own profits abroad, while simultaneously as an aforementioned meat-shield to hide behind it whenever they feel scared that some other trillionaire such as Putin might come for their wealth. And keep in mind, We The People were okay with that, b/c it helped us too to have things like Google, Amazon, and weapons that we could use to defend ourselves & our allies, and offensively destroy our enemies or threaten them to not attacking in the first place, or regardless of military entirely we could also bully them in economic matters. Just like how people in Florida are okay with their leaders antics b/c it works for them, so too the American people are okay with the antics of our own leaders - or at least we were until about the late 70s. And now, we talk as if we are not okay with them, but we act as if we are, more or less.

                So Rules for Rulers - check it out, and I hope that it messes you up as much as it did me, b/c thatā€™s how you know it is working:-D. As for where to go forward from hereā€¦ I donā€™t know, but even so I consider my new position to be a lot better than my previous one where I thought I knew but didnā€™t. To be clear, that is not me even attempting to hint at implying that liberalism is incorrect, but rather me saying that if we canā€™t make it happen in the real world, then of what use is it to be ā€œcorrectā€? Before we can move forward, we need to find a viable path first. Like standing at the foot of the Rocky Mountains, wanting to go westward - itā€™s not impossible, but it is going to be rough going, and we might not all make it, and either way we need to be prepared for whatever lies ahead.

                • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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                  6 months ago

                  So typically liberal=neo-liberal=establishment Demsā€¦ Progressives=Bernie and the squadā€¦ Just semantics

                  Iā€™ve seen that video beforeā€¦ Love everything he doesā€¦ I wonder how AI and robots taking over all human labor over the next 20 years will effect this model. I guess itā€™s sort of like discovering a resource that dwarfs the production capabilities of the people. So all the democracies slip into dictatorships? Maybe thatā€™s what weā€™re seeing the prelude to?

                  • OpenStars@discuss.online
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                    6 months ago

                    I tend to avoid the word ā€œprogressiveā€, b/c - I kid you not - George W. Bush was one.

                    Progressivism is a political philosophy and movement that seeks to advance the human condition through social reform ā€“ primarily based on purported advancements in social organization, science, and technology.

                    Like, maybe someone doesnā€™t have to be ā€œgoodā€ at it in order to be called one? Also, Biden did one of the largest infrastructure bills that weā€™ve seen in modern times - would that make him quality? (perhaps not a ā€œsocial progressiveā€ but a different kind?) I admit, I am very likely over-thinking this and should just use the word:-P.

                    But anyway, yeah, HRC was pro-war, pro-big business, the rather extensive list goes on, so a perfect example of a Democrat who was decidedly not progressive. And you get what I am saying underneath it all: what the politicians offer does not always perfectly match the desires of their constituents - e.g. neoliberalism.

                    Maybe thatā€™s what weā€™re seeing the prelude to?

                    Literally all across the globe!

                    Yeah, the likes of Bezos have been harping on replacing their human workforce for years, they actually feel like technology is BEHIND in that aspect, b/c they wish they could ditch the meat-bags ASAP (who do things like die when the temperature rises above a certain threshold for a sustained length of time). So while governments with octogenarians donā€™t even know it is happening, corporations look like they are preparing 3rd-world nations to receive their robot factories. Just like farming today, if all you need is 1-5 humans per huge production location, and especially if you can pay that person in housing & maybe food (ā€œcompany scripā€), then by ensuring their loyalty in said manner you can maintain absolute control over your profits. Evolution can sometimes be about survival of the most ruthless? Especially when people refuse to work together to stop it.:-(