Don’t wanna be that guy but this article is a tad bit misleading. 13 euros for a plane ticket is an anomaly and probably due to governments funding airlines to encourage tourism to their countries.
That said, a couple hours on a rickety Ryanair for <13 euros beats buying a bunch of train tickets and the stress involved. Downside is missing out on getting to stop in some cool places and see some pretty sights with comfy leg room. (Also trains are more efficient due to the amount of people boarding)
It was certainly a click bait headline. But still a fair point that train fare averages are double airfare. Although we have to question, did Greenpeace throw out the outliers before compiling the stats?
They definitely didn’t throw out the outliers for cheap airline flights.
€13 is cheap for Ryanair, but it’s not some absurd anomaly. I went from Ireland to Italy for €18, and took a bunch of other flights for <€30.
Nah, cheap flight tickets are not an anomaly. Not the norm, perhaps. But at any given time you could easily find plane tickets for less than 50 EUR, which is less than you’ll ever pay for an international train journey.
I mean it really depends on where you want to go and what kind of (how much) luggage you want to carry. A couple of years ago I flew to Stockholm from Berlin. Plane ticket plus luggage price was around 75€ or so. On the way back I took the train. 65€, unlimited luggage (I didn’t need to throw away my cooking gas) and a really nice landscape on the way back, including a ferry ride.
My point is that the cheapest flights are currently always cheaper than the cheapest train rides - not that plane travel is always less expensive.
They’re just filling the seats at the last minute. THis has happened forever. Most of those seats would have been much more expensive, thought probably not as much as rail. I’ve never found long-distance rail travel to compete with air, which I suspect is a demand thing. Nobody wants to sit in a train for 12 hours when you can be there in 2 on a plane.
Yeah 13€ for a flight is like my current cross Germany train ticket for 15.99€, super rare and not a honest discussion basis.
In my experience price is more between 20-60€ for flights in europe if you want to travel on a specific date and less if you’re free to choose.
13 euros for a plane ticket is an anomaly and probably due to governments funding airlines to encourage tourism to their countries.
Governments subsidizing airlines over rail is one of the criticisms levied in the article:
The group has urged governments on the continent to introduce long-term, affordable “climate tickets” for public transport, including cross-border ones. They suggest these should be funded by a “phase-out of airline subsidies and a fair taxation system based on CO2 emissions.”
Booked a flight from Vienna to Tallinn for 16€ quite literally 5 minutes ago.
I think the discussion is just misdirected: There are distances, even within Europe, that are so large a train won’t do it, no matter how cheap it is. Most people will not sit in a train for 10 hours when they can fly for 1 1/2. It turns out, going 800 km/h in a straight line is just more convenient. Who knew.
Now, do I think trains should be cheaper? Yes, most fares do not reflect at all the level of service you receive.
Do I think inter-european rail connections will ever catch on? lolno, bar the few train aficionados.
There are really only two options: Either we all stay within a radius in our lives that resembles that of let’s say the 1960’s - or we fly.
I’m not very bullish on long-term potential for passenger train travel, but I don’t know if I’d reduce it to “flight or 1960s travel radius” either. A few points:
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High speed rail doesn’t push the radius out as far as air travel does, but it does extend it. The biggest issue for HSR, I think, is not passenger time, but cost – if passenger train travel is already uncompetitive on price, faster train infrastructure is considerably more expensive relative to that. I am not sure whether that cost is fundamental or not – maybe it’s possible to find ways to build HSR infrastructure more-cheaply.
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Self-driving vehicles. Some of the objections I’ve seen to use of sleeper trains – one way to mitigate the issues of trains being slower than planes is by having travel happen when asleep – is people who dislike having shared sleeping environments. Maybe it’s possible to do, oh, a self-driving car with a sleeper trailer or something like that.
A couple of notes;
if passenger train travel is already uncompetitive on price, faster train infrastructure is considerably more expensive relative to that. I am not sure whether that cost is fundamental or not – maybe it’s possible to find ways to build HSR infrastructure more-cheaply.
Fair, but it’s not like passenger rail is uncompetitive when taking everything into account. Cars are subsidised far more, and both cars and planes have far more negative externalities (i.e. real future costs) than trains. Plus, there’s a very real cost to being dependent on oil states for the bulk of our transportation options, one that has somewhat been demonstrated by the war in Ukraine.
I do agree on your point about high speed rail compared to normal rail, although I do think there is a lot of value in them being top of the line services to make rail as a whole more attractive.
Self-driving vehicles. Some of the objections I’ve seen to use of sleeper trains – one way to mitigate the issues of trains being slower than planes is by having travel happen when asleep – is people who dislike having shared sleeping environments. Maybe it’s possible to do, oh, a self-driving car with a sleeper trailer or something like that.
Cars straight up suck and are less efficient than trains. Why you’d think of a car with a caravan but not, idk, private sleeping compartments in trains, is beyond me.
All traffic is expensive.
Germany alone subsidises it’s flight sector with billions of € by making kerosene tax free, there’s no VAT on international flights, etc.
The total direct cost of German road traffic to the public are estimated at 70 billion € per year, of which only 25 are being paid by people driving cars.
Well, 1960s had cars and people were using these for long distance travel due to the lack of other options. My dad, for example, drove his shitty car from Berlin to the south of Spain and back.
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I think the issue may be split in two - for some, the younger and poorer, cost is the limiting factor - they are willing to put up with longer travel times but cannot stem the additional financial burden. For older and more settled people (which I am transitioning to slowly) and my parents are in, comfort trumps price at all times. They will take the fastest, most direct route. They would fly even if it cost 2-3x more (which, for them, it does since they will take the premium airlines over budget).
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Going back to individual vehicles is, in my opinion, not a great solution. I am hopeful that we will find ways to have short distance air travel use more green options (electrical?) in the near-to-mid future, therefore eliminating the need to curb the undoubtably huge demand.
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Yeah that’s the unfortunate side. Given the situation it makes way more financial sense for the consumer to take the plane ticket unless they enjoy the novelty of a long train journey.
Also had a situation recently where just a 1.5 hour train trip became 6 hours due to it breaking down in a town with few bus stops and no other trains, probably due to summer tourism. It would be nice if the rail infrastructure were even further expanded and tickets made cheaper to make it more competitive.
Completely crazy. I can’t wait till they fix this.
Luckily we’re on the right track with Germany’s 49€ ticket. Now these types of tickets just need to spread and maybe one day we’re gonna have a unified EU ticket.
Sure, but most train journeys you would replace a flight with are way too long and arduous with the 49€ ticket because that only allows regional trains and not the high speed IC/ICE trains. Those are the ones that need to get cheaper if we want people to stop flying.
If we had an inter-european ticket it could be more expensive and allow you to take high speed trains. It would be silly to give it the same restrictions that the German ticket has.
Yeah I’m just saying there are already flight journeys within Germany that could be replaced by train and there the same problem applies. I wasn’t suggesting that a hypothetical European ticket would have similar restrictions.
In austria we have a ~1000€ ticket for all public transport for a whole year. I think thats a great start, being able to use whatever bus/tram/train for 3€ per day is pretty awsome.
Sure hope so. Meanwhile, in The Netherlands, we’re raising train ticket prices once again.
Recently, I was thinking about a hypothetical trip to the Netherlands and looking for the train prices. I was suprised how expensive they really are. As I understand it, a day ticket costs more than the DeutschlandTicket for a month, and relatively even more if you consider discounted DeutschlandTickets.
It’s really unfortunate yeah. The other day I saw some tips on saving money by booking international train tickets via the foreign rail operator vs NS International. Saving 50% on your ticket price was pretty much guaranteed.
But that also only works for short distance trains. And the distances you would go by plane are not really feasible like this.
There is interrail for EU tickets.
Don’t worry, they ‘ll sort it so airline tickets are as expensive as train tickets shortly.
Monkey paw: they rise the price of plane tickets so both cost the same
We need to tax kerosene at the EU level. Would be a good way to have an independent revenue for federal institutions
But also subsidize trains at the same time. Otherwise we just forbid poor people from traveling
Trains are already heavily subsidized but I agree, fares have to go down for people to use it more.
Cars are subsidised more than trains, so while trains are heavily subsidised they’re still at a significant disadvantage compared to both cars and planes.
I don’t think the problem here is the low price of (some) flights… It’s the high price of (most) train rides…
Im sorry but 12$ for a plane ticket. Anywhere. That sounds either a lie or fishy.
Maybe its 12$ and then 100 for “fees Of 70$ for any bag. Or something
Or the air company is trying to destroy trains and is flying at a loss.
Lot of budget airlines sell cheap tickets for the last seats of short hauls in that price range.
In Eastern Europe, it’s a whole thing, people buy a cheap ticket for under 30 EUR there and back anywhere. Think like Budapest to Milan, spend a weekend, maybe not even booking a hotel.
It’s bad for the destination as well, because if you can’t pay for the plane ticket, how are you going to pay for anything else? But you still take your space in the crowd.
If that’s the case then for the purpose of the article the fare for €13 can only mislead. That is, it’s the avg ticket price that matters for comparison to trains.
The environmental problem is that the plane is taking off. If that happens, then it might as well be a fully booked aircraft.
A checked bag can be had for as little as €20 sometimes. Or just travel with a backpack as “personal item”. Definitely possible to fly for €10. €30-€50 is more common though.
It’s ridiculous.
I literally bought a ticket for 10 euros everything included from Ryanair just now. Ne bags or anything though, but I’m a backpacker and it’s allowed.
The sad part is that even with the fees the plane remains cheaper than the train.
It’s real, many flights are dirt cheap, especially flights to Amsterdam via KLM from neighbouring countries. I remember waaay back in the day when I was trying to get to Russia from Ukraine to see my then online girlfriend, I had an option of going by bus directly or flying through Amsterdam for the same price but a long layover. Like, literally, across all Europe and back on a flight was the same price as a direct bus ride.
My plane ticket was 1€ a decade ago through Ryanair. Taxes brought it up to 16€ though. I think checking a bag was 20€ and you could check up to a 20kg bag.
Kerosene should be taxed by an EU-wide tax.
As of 2023, commercial kerosene consumption is currently tax exempt under the legislation of all member states of the European Union.
Why not rather do something to make trains more affordable? People need and want to travel, making air travel more expensive will just cause people to get stuck at home.
It’s especially odd since trains inside countries tends to be affordable (and subsidised), but internationally it can get super expensive very quickly.
While those same tracks are used for cargo, so it’s not like the whole European track network needs to be maintained just for a few passenger trains.
Kerosene should be taxed by an EU-wide tax.
Yes, or price carbon according to scientific recommendations, and remove exceptions like for Kerosene.
This article is a load of bullshit. They basically only compared train prices from the UK to Europe and said it was more than flying. Sure, but that’s because train prices in the UK are ridiculous, not because train prices in Europe are ridiculous. The UK is the outlier, always has been.
Taking a train in the UK, even across the UK, is sometimes more expensive than driving - it usually is when you factor in getting from a station to somewhere else. Meanwhile, taking a train within Europe is generally very affordable. The difference is the governments in the mainland actually regulate and ensure investment.
In Germany you can get a train to anywhere in the country for about €20, and children up to 14 are free. There’s also Interrail tickets you can get across Europe that cover regions or countries, when the UK was a part of this system the UK-wide ticket cost roughly the price of 3 EU countries, even though the UK is much smaller.
I’m from Germany, and none of the things you said are true. For example, to get from Aachen Central station to Hamburg Central station the cheapest option is 23,90€, but that connection is from 8pm to 3am. If you want to ride in the day, your cheapest price is the Quer-Durchs-Land-Ticket (“Cross-Country Ticket”) at 44€. But that way you are only allowed to use regional trains, which will make it a 7 hour train ride. If you want to use intercity trains (still a 5 hour ride), you will pay around 70-90€. And all of that is for 2nd class.
The age cutoff for children to travel for free is 6 years, children from 6-14 and 15-27 years travel at variously reduced prices (39€ for regional-only, 42€ for intercity).
I don’t know where you got your information, but here in Germany, we are in the same situation as the UK. And while trains in the UK may be painfully slow on cross-country travel, I have felt that they were much more comfortable to travel on, given the absolutely abysmal state of a lot of our trains.
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I was basing it on the information on this page: https://www.bahn.com/en/offers/saver-fare although now that I look at it the prices are “from” ~€20. IIRC there was also a limit on train prices across Germany over the summer, I think I may have confused these two.
€70-90 intercity is still cheaper than £100 to get halfway across England, with prices going up from there. Particularly when you look at the distances travelled. Again, this is standard fare, first class is much more expensive.
While maybe not as cheap as I was saying, train travel most definitely is better and cheaper in Germany than the UK, in my experience. I was in Germany a couple months ago using the train to get around. The situation might be headed in the same direction, but it’s far better over there.
For a specific example, Munich to Berlin takes 4-4.5 hours by train, compared to 5.5 hours driving, a distance of 590 km / 360 miles. The 4 hour route can be €70 euros, peak price is €170 while if you travel late in the day you can get it for just €17.90. Meanwhile, Bristol to Leeds is only 209 miles or 330 km, takes 3.5 hours by car or by train, but a train ticket will cost you £108.10 one way super off peak (after morning rush).
So I guess German trains can be as expensive as UK trains, but you get many more cheaper options than we do - all while covering greater distances with trains that are quicker than driving.
This is definitely a bullshit comparison because there’s no way that flight doesn’t come with a ton of airport and processing fees and taxes, making its final price many times what’s listed here:
the cost of the train was 384 euros (about $430) compared to 12.99 euros for the Ryanair flight – making the train 29.6 times more expensive than the plane.
This is definitely a bullshit comparison because there’s no way that flight doesn’t come with a ton of airport and processing fees and taxes, making its final price many times what’s listed here
And then we haven’t talked about externalities yet. Planes cause so much more climate damage (which someone will have to pay), air pollution, probably noise pollution and possibly more.
Yeah they’re taking the first price Ryanair advertise, rather than the final price you end up paying. Also, you can’t bring anything with you at that price, just your carry on bag.
Meanwhile, cutting out the UK, a train from Paris to Barcelona can be had for €45 if you book well in advance (2 months), maybe even less than that.
you can definitely fly at just the advertised price. been there, done that. paid 16 € for a ticket, no extra fees.
No suitcase.
Don’t need it.
Have just been to Paris for a week, with just a backpack (included in the price), managed just fine. If you don’t pack enough clothes, you can just get them washed pretty much anywhere.
The cost of doing laundry, both in money and time (particularly in a foreign and unfamiliar country), isn’t really worth the cost of bringing a proper suitcase.
Saying that though, if you’re happy travelling light, more power to you. I like to bring the kitchen sink with me, but that’s just me.
In Germany you can get a train to anywhere in the country for about €20
While this is true, there’s a big asterisk attached to the statement.
DB adjusts the ticket price based on how many seats are still empty (asking other things).
Which means the earlier you book the cheaper the tickets are. But prices can ramp up quickly.
For an unpopular connection (mostly through the night) it can be enough to book 1 week in advance.
However for popular connections at prime times you gotta book at least a month in advance.
Depending on circumstances, it’s nice and it sucks at the same time.
Depending on circumstances, it’s nice and it sucks at the same time.
Yeah, that was the general impression I had when I dug deeper.
Still, your trains are quicker than those in the UK, and they can be much cheaper albeit maybe sometimes a bit more expensive.
In France it’s pure greed. The government keeps trying to pawn off any public utility that doesn’t generate revenue since that Jupiter wannabe took office. I don’t know how politicians convinced billions of people that public utilities must be profitable…
SNCF is deeply in debt. French Train Travel is very affordable with OuiGo, TER Fares are also quite cheap with discount cards, and for young people TGV Max (79€/Month for unlimited Travel including High Speed) is also a great option. Unfortunately the 4th rail package of the EU will destroy all State Railway Operators forcing to tender out all services starting 2030 This will also lead to cuts of “unprofitable Routes” and generally lead to shitty service as the cheapest always wins. If you want an example look to German regional services which are all tendered out. Every day they are cancellations because someone became sick and they have no reserves. The same with Trains. Most of them travel with reduced capacity, because not all sets work, some are also cancelled for this reason . I really love the EU but this is some very shitty legislation. The current state where the member states could choose wether they want to liberate their rail market or not is much better
Oh, this reminds me of the UK
Doesn’t really go into the reasons for the price difference?? I doubt kerosene subsidies counts for everything?
Btw I like trains and think we should ban a lot of flights that can be serviced with quick alternatives
There was something about France banning domestic flights that take less than 2(or 3?) hours by train.
Which makes a shit ton of sense. The same stretch is not gonna be shorter by plane when you factor in the extra ceremonies you have to attend both before and after the flight, and the time it takes to get to and from wherever the airport is.
Such short flights would be mostly connecting flights, so the check-in and customs overhead is a fixed constant anyway.
think we should ban a lot of flights that can be serviced with quick alternatives
Doing that without actually bringing down the train fares would be frustrating. Budget airline tickets in Europe are ludicrously cheap.
Good point, because we rely on what little competition there is to get reasonable pricing.
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In Germany, it’s greed. I remember 18 years ago a train ride to the next city to go to the movies was 1.30 euros. Today it costs 5.80 euros. That’s not inflation, that’s just greed.
They gotta finance their infrastructure somehow.
Oh, right. They’re incentivized to not do exactly that. So they can cry to the government for even more funds.
Even more obscene is that they used to have a monopoly by law until sometime in the mid-2000s. No other corporation was allowed to compete with Deutsche Bahn, a remnant of Hitler’s agenda to strengthen governmental grip on public transport.
And still they managed to have deficits in every financial quarter.
Price is not even the issue for me, it’s availability. I tried to book a ticket from Zurich to London for December. There are apparently not connections available anymore. I would gladly pay more than if I would be taking a plane, just give me the option…
There is Europe problem with integrated universal ticket system. There is lots of lobbing against it mainly from France, Italy, Spain. Then there would be some accountability for late trains, connections made… They just don’t want to do it.
Yeah…sad to hear that. I did it before a few years ago, really nice experience. Sad to see it go.
Political will isn’t there for this. Main issue is that all companies operate independently or nationally. There are rare cases where it somewhat works. I can take train to Vienna or Berlin from here and it is pretty much painless experience.
There is Europe problem with integrated universal ticket system. There is lots of lobbing against it mainly from France, Italy, Spain
I’m not sure whether a common ticket is a good idea, but I also don’t see why this needs to be a barrier. Other than Portugal and the UK, which need to connect through those countries, no other countries in Europe need France, Spain, or Italy onboard to agree to a common system. You just can’t travel in those countries with it.
EDIT: Well, okay, and Andorra and Monaco and Vatican City.
More than accountability is likely prices. Train in Italy is much more expensive than switzerland or Germany. A single ticket would force them to lower prices
I couldn’t reply to kbin comment but this outlines lots of issues with train network in Europe.
It is little bit outdated now EU wants to make it more feasible by 2026.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/130/rail-transport
Use thetrainline.com for international train travel. I found these for you as an example. 144€, 8 hours, change in Paris. Meanwhile, flying is <60€, under 2 hours.
I know what I would choose, haha.
Awesome thanks, yeah I can’t choose a plane if there is a reasonable train connection available. I will never set foot in a plane that is run by a company that can somehow afford < 60 euro tickets.
Edit: I see, it seems to be the date I want to travel, December 20. does only return a bus connection.
Up to you. I never understood that attitude, people act like air travel is the only one subsidized, meanwhile (at least in Germany), everything from tracks to new vehicles, tickets (like the 49€ ticket) to covering of losses is subsidized by our taxes. And they are still way too expensive.
Meanwhile, airplanes are actually shockingly efficient per kg/km travelled - the train is just even more efficient. Most of the airlines even give you an option to offset your CO² footprint for the flight. Taking the difference between train and air travel and donating it to a worthy cause would likely be the most valuable option from a world saving standpoint.
But that’s neither here nor there, I understand it’s about feeling good as much as it is about efficiency.
This is the report:
https://greenpeace.at/uploads/2023/07/report-ticket-prices-of-planes-vs-trains-in-europe.pdf
While undoubtedly the train fares are unreasonably expensive in several routes specially in UK, the comparison is mostly for longer routes like London to Barcelona or Madrid to Brussels, where you need to change several trains from different operators. Few would be willing to try such a route.
These kind of routes are not much favourable to trains and also the quoted Ryanair fare, I doubt 12.9€ is a last minute fare, it probably doesn’t include airport fees and extras you might want like a luggage and so on.
I’m looking at going from Barcelona to Paris, both plane and train has direct connections and on the dates I am considering, it’s about 50 eur for the plane and 130 eur for the train each way. Both the airport and trains station are close to me and the trains also has a security check and the queue that comes with that, so I’m still not sure what I’m going to pick.
funny, I was looking at the same connection in autumn and the price difference was similar. I have no problem with the longer trip, but the cost is prohibitive. for two people the train tickets from Germany to Paris and then onwards to Barcelona are ~700€ round trip. flights are less then 400€, and that’s a regular airline not Ryanair…
The difference will not be as big as it seems, 50 Euro is perhaps Ryanair basic fare. I am sure they will charge you for even the carry-on luggage and they fly you far away from Paris. If you go to CDG it will be around 100 euro which is still less than the train but not much more.
Milan Paris is served by TGV InOui and Trenitalia and the prices were nowhere near that different. Trenitalia is somewhere between 80-120 Euro each way which is the similar price you would pay for EasyJet on this same route. When I took this train last week (both ways) they tended to be full, you normally cannot find last minute tickets, so the demand is there it seems.
Don’t get me wrong there is a lot of room for improvement (really a lot) try to go a bit further maybe to go to Venice instead of Milan and you are looking at 150-200 Euro fare and that’s with the same operator.
People don’t vote for these kinds of things. They just complain about it and then vote for whichever party shouts the loudest about immigration which, as we all know, is the most important issue on the planet. Nothing could ever be more important
I wish it made sense for me to take bus or train to visit family on the other end of Europe, but it’s both more expensive. Makes me feel half bad about a trip I should enjoy. Why is everything upside down?
Yup, and in the Netherlands the main train company is planning to make it even more expensive on purpose, in order to discourage people from taking the train.
Well the Government could fund an expansion on the crowded part of the networks.
I drive along the A1 near Amersfoort every morning and more cars isn’t really the solution. I’m considering working from home more. Probably will once I’ve worked at this company a little bit longer.
I think their business model is ripping off tourists by charging excessive bag fees while EU residents with small bags get to fly cheaply.
It’s not just bag fees, there are also fees for choosing a seat, ticket changes, insurance, email or txt notifications, …
