Apple and Google stores are classic rent seeker behavior.
Deny them profit.
You don’t have to use the Google store though.
Apple forces you to the their app store, and they have a huge list of requirements they impose on apps to which dicks around developers
You don’t have to use Google’s store, but they’ve done a lot of anticompetitive shenanigans to snuff out competition and ensure they remain the dominant storefront.
After Google saw how much money Apple was making, they seemed to immediately regret having Android be an open platform. It was a convenience when they acquired the product early on because they could bring it to market quickly, but they’ve done everything in their power since then to close it up.
They’ve even start hoovering up stuff that was sideloaded so that it integrates into their store.
They tried to “update” my VLC but since my binary was signed by F-Droid it fails… and fails… and fails… No way to tell them to stop trying.
There are so many android devices out there that don’t even use the Google Play store…
In fact, you’re not even allowed to use Google services and play store in China and I thought Samsung ships their own store don’t they?
Windows uses Amazon appstore for Android too
A lot of Android roms likely use different app stores too
In contrast, Apple has 1 store. And when pebble was released before their own watch, they delayed adding the app to the store 3 weeks which basically killed them.
You can also disable play store on pixel phones (I just checked).
Short of advertising competing app stores front page or offering to install them, not sure what else they can do?
Many apps rely on Play Integrity API now which means if Play Store is completely rid off, problems will arise. The latest example was Authy not working on Graphene OS.
Play Store can be disabled and alternatives like Aurora Store can be used however any paid apps can only be linked/used via the Play Store. Except for F Droid, other app stores like what Samsung ships are either full of even lower quality (and quantity) apps. (It has few exclusives but most can be sideloaded).
Only China is a proper example because they have a complete ecosystem outside of Google. From their social networking companies to payment mechanisms, they are usually done by Chinese companies. Huawei has a proper phone outside of Google services, I think, from a major Chinese OEM.
Proper feature parity will be achieved when users need not rely on Play Store as a single stop shop.
Not only do they force you to use the App Store, developing an app for iOS is a nightmare. Without special tools you must have a mac and a $100/yr apple developer license.
After having to deal with that shit at my old place of work I’ve moved to never touch app development again.
Yep. Totally agree.
I only ended up with a Mac because edge kept hijacking my chrome tabs every reboot
But, it costs far more than a PC, and honestly, the hardware capabilities are worse
At least the M3 chips I think now have ray tracing. But still no nested VT so I can’t even run the windows android emulator in parallels
Also, I keep coming across weird Mac os bugs with windows handling and device handling
I actually used to sell them. And got in an argument with a national sales manager over running windows on them. Apple released boot camp a week later and suddenly he returned to repeat the same arguments I used against him. Never got an apology
I don’t think this difference matters that much in Patreon’s case. Convincing users to sideload an app on Android is likely much harder than just getting them to visit the Patreon website on their phone and subscribe to users that way. Heck, they could probably make the mobile site virtually identical to the app anyway.
You also don’t have to use the Patreon iOS app. Most people just use the services and don’t search for alternatives. If you’re on Lemmy then you’re not in the “most people” category by default.
Yeah, you don’t have to, but then nobody is getting your app. Most people don’t have other stores and will look at you weird if you mention side loading. Samsung/Galaxy Store maybe, but even Samsung users mostly don’t use it.
So technically your don’t have to use it and your app is obtainable without it, but If you want to actually reach some users, you have to be on Google Play.
Google search was just declared a monopoly, when there are obviously other searched engines anyone can use. If that’s a monopoly then Google Play is a bigger monopoly.
On Android you can distribute your app through the Play Store without being forced to use Google’s in-app purchases. For example: Patreon.
You’re not wrong about Google Play, but Apple’s behaviour is objectively worse.
I absolutely agree Apple is worse in general.
But no, you can’t use a different payment system (except in South Korea). And yes, there are big apps to whom magically rules don’t apply, including Patreon or Steam. If you include the same thing in your app, you will be banned, and pointing to examples of other apps is not allowed in any appeal. Between anticompetitive rules being applied to everyone and them being applied selectively based on backroom deals, I’d rather have the Apple approach, since at least it’s fair in that regard.
Official policy is that only payments for physical goods, physical services, utilities (water, gas) and credit card payments (paying back a bank for credit card usage) are allowed to use non-Google payment systems.
But again, rules don’t apply if you are a big fish.
It’s probably just like shopping malls. Big brands pay less rent because they drive more people to the mall and thus have more leverage.
Yep. It just sucks when you are a smaller developer. I was told by Google Play Developer support I can’t make the app I wanted to do, and no, the fact other big apps are allowed to do the exact same thing doesn’t matter.
Patreon is also a platform taking 12% of their users money.
The “platform economy” is just another term for digital landlords.
Fuck 'em.
Techno feudalism is the term, look it up
Oh I know, I just thought using landlords would be a more concise term since most people don’t know the term techno-feudalism as widely.
I’ll definitely try to incorporate it in my writing more though, it’s a term that I think should be known much more widely.
look up en passant
lol, the irony is patreon is also a platform. Its platforms all the way down. They take 12%. If Apple wanted to be the good guy, they’d take 30% of patreon’s 12%.
Middle man skimming off the top.
Pretty sure they are the top man
If digital platforms didn’t add any value, every android app would just be available for sideloading on the dev’s website. Not that I agree with Apple’s pricing tactics, but running and moderating a marketplace isn’t free
Landlords don’t create the value themselves, they are an intermediary for value.
Platforms don’t create the value themselves, they are also an intermediary for value.
The value app stores provide is reach, but they don’t get that value without the developer’s effort. The only thing they provide is the network effect, which is nothing more than a consequence of making themselves the default option for users of these phones.
For the same reason that landlords don’t provide inherent value, but still capture so much of the housing market, platforms don’t provide inherent value, but still capture so much of the app market.
They push out competition. If a landlord buys a house, there’s one less house for someone to buy. If an app store brings in another user, there’s one less user that will use other means to acquire an app.
I myself primarily use alternative means of installing apps. Direct APK downloads, or F-Droid. The only reason these exist is because the apps I use are specifically targeting a privacy-conscious user base that is likely to be using alternative means to acquire apps in the first place.
Because these platforms immediately monopolize user acquisition by bundling themselves with the OS, they directly fight any pressure to use alternative means, which makes most app developer efforts to create alternative means not worth the time.
App stores can and should be free. Without an app store, Apple and Google would have barely any market for their phones.
These platforms exist to give the hardware & OS itself value. The only reason these fees exist is because they are monopolies.
This is a given for many kinds of services. Always purchase subscriptions on another device or direct through their website - never use your Apple devices’ app store.
I’m just worried for the content creators on patreon. Their choices are a significant reduction in income, jacking up prices and pricing out some of their patrons (thus reducing their income), or if patreon pulls from apple there’s a significant reduction in visibility and additional hurdles (thus reducing income).
So it seems that no matter the outcome, creators suffer the consequences of the Apple tax.
Fuck apple. Rotten to the core. Class action lawsuit in the very least.
Vote. We need House, Senate, and President to not be corporate fascists so that we can impeach at least 2 or 3 supreme court judges, replace them with rational human beings, reverse the overturning of Chevron Deference, and then let a stronger FTC gut these fucking companies.
Self dealing, competition buying, corporate fascists. The lot of them.
What we can work on is awareness. If iOS users are aware, they can choose to simply go to the website directly and make the purchase, instead of using the app. They can still use the app for consumption.
Yep, that’s what everyone I know with Apple devices have always done. I used to have a Nexus 7 (rip) and an iPhone, and the prices on the App store were always higher than the prices on Android Market (rip).
I’m wondering why it’s being pointed out now by everyone, but I’m not gonna complain if it leads to some sort of price parity regulation across platforms.
It’s all about trust. The problem is that people trust Apple not to steal your credit card information and to honor subscription rules etc. You probably trust the independent platform a bit less, such as many of those scammer platforms who might even charge people more than they should by “mistake”, then have an awful process to get reimbursed etc.
In that sense, most people will always prefer Apple to manage these things. Everything’s then in one place, and you trust that once you cancel it you won’t be charged again.
As an example, I had a Netflix subscription and after I cancelled it, I’ve got 2 or three emails saying “Thank you for reactivating your subscription” which I didn’t do. I suspect they make some pop up that my mom tapped without noticing, but that definitely shouldn’t happen without my password. I could only solve the problem by adding a second payment method (which doesn’t work) and only then it allowed me to delete my previous credit card data.
Someone’s looking to get in on some anti-trust action.
I thought Apple’s app store practices were found to be legal in the Epic Games trial? (unlike Google’s)
Which is kinda ridiculous since Apple’s practices are what Google does but worse.
To paraphrase an analysis that I read awhile ago, Apple’s practices were found to be legal because Apple applied the rules unilaterally whereas Google would make backroom deals to alter the rules on an app-by-app basis.
Please take this with a grain of salt because 1) IANAL and 2) it is the middle of a workday break and I didn’t take the time to search for a source, just basing this off of memory.
If you want I can research this after work to provide sources and update my comment.
I’m okay with paying 30% where the return on investment is worth it. Both the Appstore and Google Play do literally nothing for you, except distribution, and payment processing. These really don’t deserve to take such a big cut, and I don’t really want to hear any more excuses in their favor
This is not about the App Store service’s quality, this is about option. They could charge 50% for all I care, if we had the option to buy iOS apps from another store other than Apple’s.
i’m so glad i’m on android
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As opposed to just using a flip phone? I’d happily use a FOSS based Linux phone if it were well developed and readily available.
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Until you can use things like banking apps on them they will never be mainstream sadly.
Two months ago I had to buy a new phone because my new bank’s app refused to install on the android version of my previous (perfectly working) android phone that I had had for 6 years. The phone brand was not providing android updates for it.
And I was required to install the app because the website of the bank needed a code that only the app could provide in order to access my account.
And the app itself required a code that I could only get by SMS.
In normal situation I would have gone to a different bank but this time I can’t because I signed my mortgage with this bank…
And everything is a slog with them, I hate this bank. And I will be stuck with them for decades.
It should be illegal for bank to refuse access if don’t have the ‘correct’ phone OS
(perfectly working) android phone that I had had for 6 years. The phone brand was not providing android updates for it.
I get it through from the banks perspective. The OS is no longer getting security updates, so this is a fault of the phone manufacter for not having a long term commitment to security and OS updates.
And the app itself required a code that I could only get by SMS.
Yeah this is pretty bad.
And I will be stuck with them for decades.
Why’s that? I have my mortage through one bank but literally never use the actual services of the bank, I’ve never called them or used their app or logged into the site. My current account and savings accounts are with another bank separate to my mortage provider.
Also, won’t you be able to change when you come to re-mortgage if another bank offers a better deal?
Yea you are right I might be able to change sometime in the future.
Yeah, I do the same with my mortgage. Statements emailed to me monthly so I never need to log in to get them (annual escrow statement as well). Payments made via my normal bank’s Bill Pay feature. No reason to ever log in to my mortgage holder’s website/app.
You absolutely don’t have to stay at the bank you have a mortgage through. My checking/savings, auto loan and mortgage are all at different banks.
I’m on Graphene OS and I use six different banking apps with no problem.
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Feels good to be on graphene (and Debian)
I’m curious what this means. Personally I don’t give a damn who uses what do what’s good for you, but android is heavily customizable with different operating systems and apps for more minor tweaks. On top of all that switching from android to iPhone is IMMENSELY easier than iPhone to android.
If you’re referencing the Google apps that people get to involved with there’s many options to get away from them nowadays. There’s whole communities here on lemmy assisting with that for those in to deep or even those just joining the android community so they don’t get pulled in.
I use android not because it’s good but because I can get unlocked bootloader and that hack where you can spoof app permissions to provide them with fake data instead of using Google’s fake ass permissions system. I doubt this gives me 100% bulletproof privacy but not being able to harvest my data as reliably costs Google and the other big corporations money which is all I care about.
This couldn’t have come at a worse time, given their DOJ suit.
Is apple still blocking apps from telling users they can subscribe outside of the app store?
I.e A message on check out that says “You can save 30% if you subscribe directly the website. Apple charges a 30% processing fee for using Apple subscriptions, please just subscribe on the website.”
The oportunity was there, so I took it. What else would I link to? Actual pateron?
I believe this is related to that, yeah.
I wonder how quickly Apple would come up with new bullshit if apps started providing an interstitial page with a breakdown.
Membership (goes to creator): $4.75 Patreon fee: $0.25 Fee for using iOS (goes to Apple): $1.50 -- Total: $6.50
patreon app store.
So if I read that correctly, Apple wants a cut from Patreon’s iOS app, not all Patreon creetors that have iOS apps. People still have the option of contributing to Patreon directly via their website, or even their mobile website.
Apple takes a 30% cut from almost all transactions made within all apps installed from the App Store (which is literally all of them) and you’re not allowed to advertise e.g. a website to avoid the tax. Patreon rightly passes the 30% onto consumers, as should all apps. Regardless of their own bad practices, Apple needs to be held accountable.
Unless you’re selling physical goods (e.g. Amazon or eBay)
Thank you for the clarification, as I said, there are exceptions which are few and far between for the rule, with this being a huge carveout I missed - selling physical goods is exempt.
But if you want to pay for in-game goods (subscriptions, gems, skins, whatever) or an app outright Apple takes 30%. I know they charge Netflix the 30% for their subscriptions, but wonder about e.g. tickets/passes for transit.
No, tickets and passes for transit or events are exempt (I know it because I work in the industry). Unless they’re tickets for digital events (such as remote workshops), in that case you should pay the 30% fee.
Gee, thanks!
Close. They want a cut from all users that use the Patreon IOS app. Since they can’t quite stretch that far, they’re insisting that Apple IAP functionality be built into the app and it be offered to the users. And as before, they can’t tell the users that it’s cheaper, or even available, elsewhere.
