I disagree, but I can feel the radicality of a newly converted in your words. Newly converted often come from carnism and it took them a form of trauma or sudden enlightnement to take the step. Often, after that, they are very radical, hating the world for not making the same choice they did. For being blind to the horrors. Then they learn that their radical approach is toxic to the cause and thus to the animals in the long run.
I have been vegetarian for 33 years, and then vegan for 7 years, and my parents taught me antispeciesism when I was a child. I’ve grown my whole life (40 years), knowing that I had a different take on things than most people. I had a lot of time to think about it and I acquired a lot of experience talking about animal rights. I learned over all these years that you cannot convince anyone with radicality. And so does L214, the most prominent NGO in France for animal rights. No radical French NGO made any difference, except for the few dozens they actively saved, while millions were dying every day meanwhile.
Even if the end goal is abolitionism, having a moderate approach, and pushing for welfarist laws are pratical ethics in action. They improve the life of millions of animals, help the public to understand the issues, and simply make you audible. Screaming your hatred at the world will just make you look odd and you are helping no animal that way. None. In fact, I dare say that radical veganism is even counterproductive because it scares people away. People that would cease to be part of the problem and even people that could convince others to stop being part of it. Domino effect.
I recommand that you read Singer’s book on Henry Spira’s life and methods. I recommend you read Full Spectrum Resistance. This might teach you a few things about convincing people and defending a cause.
Regarding symbiosis, organisms, including animals, can live together and be mutually beneficial to each other. Do you think your microbiota is taking advantage of you? Is it exploiting you? In a way it does, because it manipulates you and influences your psyche. Yet, you would die without it. You feed it, and it keeps you alive. Do you see where I am going? Sure, the microbiota is not sentient but you are. And you are the one being exploited, if we stick to your definition of exploitation.
We can’t abolish slavery right away, baby steps are necessary. We need a more moderate approach.
In fact, I dare say that radical abolition is even counterproductive because it scares people away. We need to push for better treatment of slaves, and not alienate the slaveholders.
I started the discussion because I saw that may be you didn’t understand a part of it, where new messages came more weird.
In this message, you literally show an green pass for laws choosing how to kill pigs (not caring about their rights even but just reducing suffering) and try to adornate it (without direct mention) in a “everything counts” (dont know exact translation) informal fallacy trying to justify by supposed benefits, and camouflage things as “help people understand the issues”, help to understand what? That you must reduce suffering of animals and this make them easy in the allowlist?
I dont know the organizations you mention and didnt check, but if they do that, they are not better that most ones out there calling themselves animal welfarists and/or animalists.
And you start feeling entitled to self-validate your things because you believe you have more age (even if you have which is the case) than me?
However, you don’t even differenciate between moral agent and moral subject to the point you even try to show a wrong version of “exploitation” which seems to come only in this message and not the rest in a way to put these as my own words.
In other terms, you seem to take advantage of this discussion to call this as “my way to convince people”.
The way for veganism is educational activism, and not, this is not what I am doing here and sadly not what I do currently but a goal.
However, I think you appreciate that since the beginning and you only point it here as some kind of giving your reasoning a green pass.
I disagree, but I can feel the radicality of a newly converted in your words. Newly converted often come from carnism and it took them a form of trauma or sudden enlightnement to take the step. Often, after that, they are very radical, hating the world for not making the same choice they did. For being blind to the horrors. Then they learn that their radical approach is toxic to the cause and thus to the animals in the long run.
I have been vegetarian for 33 years, and then vegan for 7 years, and my parents taught me antispeciesism when I was a child. I’ve grown my whole life (40 years), knowing that I had a different take on things than most people. I had a lot of time to think about it and I acquired a lot of experience talking about animal rights. I learned over all these years that you cannot convince anyone with radicality. And so does L214, the most prominent NGO in France for animal rights. No radical French NGO made any difference, except for the few dozens they actively saved, while millions were dying every day meanwhile.
Even if the end goal is abolitionism, having a moderate approach, and pushing for welfarist laws are pratical ethics in action. They improve the life of millions of animals, help the public to understand the issues, and simply make you audible. Screaming your hatred at the world will just make you look odd and you are helping no animal that way. None. In fact, I dare say that radical veganism is even counterproductive because it scares people away. People that would cease to be part of the problem and even people that could convince others to stop being part of it. Domino effect.
I recommand that you read Singer’s book on Henry Spira’s life and methods. I recommend you read Full Spectrum Resistance. This might teach you a few things about convincing people and defending a cause.
Regarding symbiosis, organisms, including animals, can live together and be mutually beneficial to each other. Do you think your microbiota is taking advantage of you? Is it exploiting you? In a way it does, because it manipulates you and influences your psyche. Yet, you would die without it. You feed it, and it keeps you alive. Do you see where I am going? Sure, the microbiota is not sentient but you are. And you are the one being exploited, if we stick to your definition of exploitation.
We can’t abolish slavery right away, baby steps are necessary. We need a more moderate approach.
In fact, I dare say that radical abolition is even counterproductive because it scares people away. We need to push for better treatment of slaves, and not alienate the slaveholders.
I started the discussion because I saw that may be you didn’t understand a part of it, where new messages came more weird.
In this message, you literally show an green pass for laws choosing how to kill pigs (not caring about their rights even but just reducing suffering) and try to adornate it (without direct mention) in a “everything counts” (dont know exact translation) informal fallacy trying to justify by supposed benefits, and camouflage things as “help people understand the issues”, help to understand what? That you must reduce suffering of animals and this make them easy in the allowlist?
I dont know the organizations you mention and didnt check, but if they do that, they are not better that most ones out there calling themselves animal welfarists and/or animalists.
And you start feeling entitled to self-validate your things because you believe you have more age (even if you have which is the case) than me?
However, you don’t even differenciate between moral agent and moral subject to the point you even try to show a wrong version of “exploitation” which seems to come only in this message and not the rest in a way to put these as my own words.
In other terms, you seem to take advantage of this discussion to call this as “my way to convince people”.
The way for veganism is educational activism, and not, this is not what I am doing here and sadly not what I do currently but a goal.
However, I think you appreciate that since the beginning and you only point it here as some kind of giving your reasoning a green pass.