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I mean it’s actually an interesting point though?
Men should be loved and cared for in a relationship too, not treated like shit by default.
I hope you aren’t treated like shit by default.
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Got some links to share?
That depends on what you mean by “treated”. Men are not as well trusted not to be violent, and taken less seriously when the victims of sexual crimes. Women are paid less well and get more online abuse. That’s just a few examples for each side, obviously we could go on and on. Maybe we all want better treatment.
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Males being raped is a very underreported and tragic occurrence. You can’t compare apples and oranges.
(I have friends who were raped and never reported or did anything about it, out of stigma, shame, or not expecting anything [justice] to come of reporting it)
I have female friends who never reported or did anything about it, out of stigma (what were you wearing? Were you asking for it? Are you faking?), shame (why was he able to get you alone?) Or not expecting justice to come of reporting it (you’ll ruin his life, it was a mistake, I’m sure you deserved it, we don’t have enough evidence.)
That pendulum swings both ways.
Meanwhile men don’t have access to support groups, are not supported by anyone when they admit it, get straight up ridiculed for this ever happenning by both everyday people and justice system…
It happens to both genders. But we managed to build fundamental lattice of support for one of them (fundamental as in there’s still so much to do), while failing to even recognize the other one faces this problem too. We do not have to compromise on helping one side to help the other - that’s straight up not an option. But we should help, and recognize the need of help, for both.
Fucking thank you. Men’s libbers (and there’s a loooooot of them on lemmy, as you can see in your downvotes) like to trot out the “men don’t report because of stigma!” line, but it’s like, my guy, women do too?? For every woman brave enough to report, there’s anywhere from 5-10 that don’t report at all due to fear/stigma.
Of course rape happens to men (mostly by other men) too. But, couple things:
- it’s not a competition or dick measuring contest. Rape is bad, m’kay? Regardless of gender.
- it’s disingenuous to say that it happens to men just as much, or more. It feels icky, like they’re shoving themselves in a victimhood narrative where they don’t belong.
I have to ask, what do you hope to accomplish with this line of discussion?
So far we have:
- Men have it worse? What about RAPE!?
- Ok maybe men get raped but it’s by other men (…and therefore what?)
- Anyone who downvotes is a men’s libber
- Ok rape is bad full stop regardless of gender but
- Saying men get raped more (who said this btw?) means they are trying to be victims when they don’t belong as victims.
Let me tell you, as a man who struggles with mental health, there are a shit load of “men’s help” content creators that bait the hook with showing empathy for men’s issue and then sprinkle just enough mysogonisric bullshit in there to get people to start sliding down that slippery slope.
Talk like this is exactly what makes people think “you know what, maybe this misogynistic asshole had a point, I tried to say that maybe men shouldn’t be mistreated then got told that because men rape people, we don’t matter.”
I know that’s not your point or what you wanted to say, but just read back what your said and try to imagine you’re reading it as someone struggling with mental health. Maybe even try reversing the genders and see if you’re still ok with what you said.
Personally I think women in general have a harder time, but why does that matter here? There are plenty of issues unique to or especially bad for men, women, nb folks and we should be discussing issues with empathy for both sides and not falling down these extremist, side picking rabbit holes trying to play ‘gotcha’. That just hurts everyone.
In terms of downvotes, I’d note that the person actually asking for the evidence that men are treated worse overall is (imo rightfully) upvoted at this time. So I’d challenge your assumption that everyone who downvoted you is a certain type of person.
I’m not by my partner. Never have been, that’s why I love her, she’s always been kind.
But she also carries some distrust and resentment towards mean-justifiably given trauma-that is sometimes directed at me, inadvertently I think. Which sucks and doesn’t make me feel great, but it also makes sense from her perspective and she’s not got an issue with me
Sounds like she needs kindness. I have someone in my life like that. They’re working on it but it’s a long hard road.
She does, as does everyone. So it’s walking a balance of respecting her and her trauma and being supportive, while also standing up for myself when needed
Good. Sounds like you’re doing your best by her.
What if we are shit, by default?
Speak for yourself
Isn’t that the status quo? I guess it’s not really fathers to daughters, but most women I know went through some amount of “here’s how to be a good wife” lessons from their mothers or family. I think women get a lot of “traditional gender roles” training that’s mostly about being caretakers.
Usually people putting forth this kinda “women should learn how to care for their man” attitude are coming from a conservative “traditional family values” position.
Really, we should be teaching people how to ask about and learn the needs of their partner, and how to determine your own needs and communicate those to your partner. Basic emotional intelligence stuff. It doesn’t have to be gendered at all.
That’s what I thought the comments would be about but apparently he should just get called creepy instead.
Sir, this is a shit posting community.
Dont act like this didnt happen on Reddit, serious discussion in spacedicks, dickjokes in worldnews…
Sir, Reddit is a shit
postingcommunity.always has been
I guess you’re a man?
So am I.
Have you been treated like shit in your relationships? I’m sorry to hear that.
I have been treated by like shit by some women in relationships as well. Then I got out of those relationships.The moral of the story is: Don’t hang around in relationships where you’re treated like shit.
There’s other possible morals here too, but let’s keep with this one. I think it says it all.
I know you peeps probably didn’t mean it this way, but men fall victim to the same psychological traps women do. It’s not that easy to just leave a bad relationship, especially if you don’t have the expectations and tools required to identify what’s not normal
You’re absolutely right, of course.
We should aspire to ensure everyone is equipped in that respect before they leave home!
What I want to say is: Yeah, it can be as difficult for men to leave a bad relationship as it can be for women. That isn’t a reason to treat men any different from women.
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Thread closed? Why? Do you not want to defend such a statement?
Her comment jump to the conclusion that men should be tasered for no particular reason. Looking at suicide ratings it obvious men are subject to a lot of mental stress and pressure from society.
Women should be protected and cared for. Men should be tasered.
Come here so I can taze you
That’s just estim on hard mode
Yes pls
Well, I’m certainly not gonna teach my daughter to trust boys. That will lead to places I don’t even want to think about.
My guy, the motivation is right but the thinking is wrong.
You teach your daughter how to spot manipulative behavior, teach her how to stand up for and protect herself, teach your daughter how to respect herself AND others, teach her how to love herself AND others, teach her what a healthy relationship looks like…
Boys will be boys, they will be dumb and horny teenagers and they will try shit, even with the absolute best of dumb horny boy intentions, also teenage lesbians are quite keen on trying shit too. You need to teach them to spot the difference between their first love and someone telling them what they want to hear in order to go up their shirt.
You teach your daughter how to spot manipulative behavior
Yeah, only do it right. Because some girls have apparently been taught to classify anything they don’t understand as that. Sucks being autistic and trying to explain some emotion and being accused of manipulation and ghosted, because that’s easier than admitting that sometimes you just don’t understand other people as well as you think.
I also hate that folk psychology with “personal borders” (usually asymmetric, quite normal things said to those people are apparently emotional abuse, and quite heavy things from them are just life) and “red flags” (usually applied to autistic people and not applied to literal creepy\insecure behavior) and a few thumb rules which apparently describe anything in a conversation. People employing that also by default consider that everything is fine with them personally.
Thanks, but these are open doors. Glad to see there’s at least one sensible person in this threat though. I just made a single sentence comment that people read way to much into. Now I’m the world’s worst parent and I deserve all the funny comments that attack me personally on issues about which I lie awake at night.
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Maybe my comment was a bit rude but please don’t teach your daughter to instantly distrust people based on their gender. That’s a recipe for undersocilization that’s going to fuck her up for a long time
Maybe you’re not a nazi after all, lol. But I try to stay away from gender issues as much as possible, that’s not what this was about. It seems no matter what I say, it’s always offending someone’s gender. I’m sad to see it’s not possible to escape it though.
Lol is everyone who pushes your buttons a nazi?
Their username is NotANaziIWasJustBornIn1988
yeah ok your daughter is always going to not answer your calls in college lol
Is this the “college lol” you are talking about : College League of Legends | Battlefy
Because that’s what the Google told me
And here we see the pinnacle of parenthood in full swing
And the cycle continues. Congrats on being a cog in a machine we’re trying to dismantle.
This feels reductive. Are you seriously saying ‘trust boys’ is a message you should give girls right now? I have boys and girls, and I would never tell my daughter ‘yeah just default to trusting guys’ – hell she had issues with boys not understanding consent or bodily autonomy in elementary school.
And I 100% blame those of us around those boys, we’re the adults, but the fact is girls literally cannot afford to just trust men or boys on meeting.
We need to teach our boys and men to stop doing these things and then we can tell everyone to trust by default.
Yes. Trust boys. Because things happen at once, not in sequence.
There is a sequence. People earn trust, then they get trust. That is the sequence.
Individual boys will be trusted if they deserve it.
Masculinity won’t because it has broken trust. We’ve got a major crisis here, and it won’t be solved with downvoting feminist opinions or demanding trust. We have inherited a deeply broken situation, and many of the loudest voices in masculinity are still disasterously counterproductive.
The way forward is to forge a better masculinity that is an ally to the other genders. Maybe earn trust back. We can start by listening to women and hearing their concerns. Downvoting and negating their concerns pushes them in the wrong direction, doesn’t it?
I’m not gonna teach my daughters who they are or are not supposed to trust. Because I will never teach my children what they should think, but rather how to think for themselves. I will encourage them to only trust individuals that prove themselves trustworthy, but again, that’s not my decision to make.
They’re not extensions of me; they are distinct, individual human beings. So I certainly hope you will not teach her to be distrustful; that leads to misery and pain, all in the pursuit of something that doesn’t belong to you and never will (her mind is her own, whether you like it or not).
The guy probably meant this in a misogininstic way but theres a reason why theres a male mental health crisis… not only are other people not taught how to treat men, men themselves dont know either
This. So many of our problems would be solved by saying that we love our sons and that we’re proud of them.
Two things that I never heard from my Dad.
And he never heard them from his.
I don’t fucking care. You find your son right now, look him in the eyes, tell him that you love him, and that you are proud of him.
Well one of main goals in life is not being like my dad. Long story(still ongoing somehow) but basically he ruined everything for us.
The day I realized that we don’t even know how to treat each other was a wild day for me. My friend group has been complimenting and building up each other for a while now. It’s amazing the change you’ll see just by having one dude say to another, “Hey, nice shirt my guy!” or something similar.
We opened for a national band tonight so a bunch of my friends were there. After having done this for a few years then reading this thread, I’m amazed to see just how much positive masculinity we had going on. There were compliments, talking up guys to others outside of just being a wingman (there was at least one case of being a wingman, too), lots of bro hugs, and a lot of genuinely happy guys.
It’s a hard thing to get going, but I’m glad we started doing it.
Oh, I know how to treat myself! I like to stand really close to the mirror and say all the things my parents used to say to me.
All people should be taught how to treat others regardless of their gender.
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More than that, people need to learn to read men. “Yeah I’m fine, don’t worry” is often a very quiet cry for help from a gender which is traditionally taught to show only strength and permanence and to never show outward signs of “weakness”.
It’s nothing short of traumatic, the upbringing where you don’t get to cry.
TL:DR Fuck the patriarchyI’ve given my kids tasers and shown them your comment. That should do it /s
Yes! Thank you. Not that people don’t have certain issues that may be somewhat gender specific but respect in general is first and foremost when it comes to how to treat others.
Violent and stupid response. Not even funny.
Something like 1/3 of women are victims of rape. This is the world women are forced to endure and try to survive in. That’s the point
Idk, Johnny Bravo probably would agree with you
“A nonzero amount of women have a tendency to demand respect and support from their partner but not give any in return, and some women actually need to be taught that relationships are a two way street, so make sure your daughters know that because not all of them will” – person who’s been burned a lot
“Anyone who says that is probably a predator” – OP for some god damn reason
As others have pointed out, the guy is likely coming from a misogynistic viewpoint.
That’s not a guarantee – assuming intent rarely pays – and it’s certainly not an excuse for you to threaten everyone else in this comment section who acknowledges possible misogyny but points out that the general sentiment is valid with a taser too.
As a father to two girls: When and if it comes to them dating boys (or girls for that matter), yes I’m going to give them some pointers. Like:
Ask them what they want! Everyone’s different.
Be nice to them and expect them to be nice to you.
Talk to them and expect them to talk to you (at least a little bit; everyone’s different).
If you love them, let them know you do.(And if they don’t reciprocate, you can always come back home and regroup.)
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Is the top guy somebody we should know or is he just creepy because of what he said? I do think it’s important to know how to deal with the opposite sex regardless of gender, personally, I would never just throw a child into the world to figure it out, and teaching wariness is just a part of that.
Taken out of twitter context, his message is actually completely valid imo. Everyone should learn how to treat everyone with respect.
Instead we chuckle at a message of violence and wonder why people get radicalized.
We don’t, but that sounds like a lot of instances yeah. Especially Hexbear and other state run instances who are trying to intentionally radicalize the naive.
The phrases “Men should learn how to treat women” and “Women should know how to treat men” are both vastly different than “Everyone should learn how to treat everyone with respect.”
I mean its 50% of the latter. Just gotta add “women how to treat women” and “men how to treat men” and then all the boring binary labels are covered. But yeah in this context its meant in a weird sexist and probably very unequal way.
He’s a verified twitter user. I think that says enough.
Unironically can’t believe people are paying to tell on themselves these days
Most parents/adults don’t know how to treat the opposite sex either though.
As someone who’s worked in retail, a ton of people don’t know how to treat humans like anything other than objects.
Right… everyone trying to make this a gender thing is missing the forest for the trees.
I mean, the gender thing is also an issue. Two things can be part of the same problem.
I wager some experience is still better than none.
A lot of changes is society have come up in the last couple of generations. Changes equality, sexual freedoms, modern parenting, men’s roles at home, women’s role at work, etc. Many of my parent’s generation really do not know the first things about changing roles and expectations of the sexes and what people of the current generation want. Most people I know of that generation are (mildly to extremely) socially conservative. I get along great with my parents and I happily welcome them to live with me for 5 months of every year… But I would never have the teach anyone in my generation the lessons from their generation (I do speak to them about these things out of interest, but more to talk about how different the culture is between or generations now).
Alright, tell your kids it’s fine to fuck around with their bodies and people’s feelings and find out, then.
Being able to build trust and find lifelong companionship is a skill surely lacking in youth, but arrogance is clearly not.
Your comment reads far more arrogant than the one you responded to.
There is only one true good in this world, Knowledge.
And there is only one true evil.
Ok
I mean it is weird that society expects men to treat women a certain, positive way (which I’m on board with) while basically saying woman can treat men however they want tbh. Men can be victims too but nobody gives a fuck. This response is absolute garbage.
Bottom line: men and woman need to treat each other with respect and dignity.
Edit: nice kool aid man meme bro. Stay mad.
Which society are you describing here? I’d like to move there
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The entire way our society is structured is telling women how to treat men. For too long it told men they can treat women however they want which is why boys need to be taught while girls can learn it from literally everywhere around them. If anything girls should be taught to not let men treat them however they want.
For too long it told men they can treat women however they want
This is demonstrably false, as we have certain narratives that are literally millennia old (latin literature) about courtship, romantic gestures, protection and all the other stuff usually associated with how men should treat women. Usually this is some form of protection/care for a lower/weaker being, but it is absolutely a way society has been telling men how to tell women for centuries.
Bingo.
The point of the meme is that the guy is butthurt that from his perspective, no one has taught women how to treat men, yet he fails to realize we live in a society where the messaging for women is everywhere.
Girls and women most definitely need to be taught not to tolerate shitty behavior which is much more prevalent to them because men in our male-orientated society aren’t taught how to treat people. go out there. Earn. Be a good provider. Your value is only as much as what you produce. You need to have big shiny things to showcase your value. whispers society Don’t worry about your emotional development, that’s not important. A woman will straighten that out for you later
The guy above called me angry. I’m not really. Just disappointed that men are just finally starting to clue in that a lot of the media out and society’s views on men do not have male best interests at heart.
We can do better. I’m angry that we aren’t, and that the change is so painfully slow.
I’m an angry optimist.
I dunno. I think the messaging is everywhere for how to attract men, but I don’t see too much content about how to treat men either. Certainly historically that was baked into the message, pun not intended, but these days I feel like the message is “you are the table” (so long as you are attractive enough to get a date) which is in part reinforced by the validation from the dating apps women get.
My wife of 19 years still says “what are you getting me for my anniversary” and I have to remind her that it’s our anniversary. Until recently my happiness hasn’t really occurred to her that is something she should consider. It’s all about her challenges and how I can help her, and what she wants to do, or what she wants to watch on tv. I literally am not given a second thought and told I’m wrong until she gets her way.
I feel like society kind of does that for them? Not 100%, but most women’s magazine have a “how to please your man” section. Grooming for women is usually around looking young and pretty and feminine to men, hiding things or pushing/squeezing things for the best shape. While men’s story tend to be about self discovery, women’s media (until recently) was not telling women same message. Media for awhile was heavily focused on women being content as home makers. You gotta learn how to look to get a man after all and then have to do the house making to keep them. Keep yourself young and pretty so he doesn’t get a new model! You don’t like giving head? Or having men cum on your face? Oh, sorry, 90% of sexual media is geared towards men and their desires, and if you wanna keep him, you need to perform. Hell, some men don’t even think women can get pleasure from sex. Advertisements were geared towards being a “Good wife,” not a happy woman (unless you’re chuffed at being a wife). We have recent comics/memes about this. We laugh at them (“I was a scientist” VS “I raised 5 (all male) scientists”), but that’s in certain circles, these were not created to be jokes. There’s not as much as the reverse baked into society. Men didn’t have to learn how to treat a woman for, like, the bulk of our history. I think there’s a lot of focus on men attracting women (and extreme pressure on them to be the main providers), but not necessarily how to treat them. Women tend to do that with sons because, until fairly recently, no one gave a shit if you beat your family every night, rape within marriage was perfectly legal. Women couldn’t get a bank account without a man’s permission. In some countries women can’t leave the house without a man period. Society was teaching men that women were property, and it was usually only the mom in the man’s life that could say, “Hey kiddo, when you get a wife please don’t beat her.” if she wasn’t the kind of woman to say you should beat her.
This is not to say men don’t also suffer. Toxic masculinity has made a place where men have power, but lack the freedom to be vulnerable. Their mental health isn’t taken seriously because “men don’t cry.” Men don’t get “hurt,” men don’t get sad, lonely unless you’re “weak.” Don’t cry, because you’ll be told to “get a tampon.” Women who drank the kool-aid uphold this as well. Even toxic spaces that some men make for themselves (manosphere) are incredibly harmful to the men they say they’re there to uplift. All they focus on is how to get women, how to “catch one” with the bait usually a man’s wealth, or apperence. They don’t talk about how to find a loving partner, how men can look out for abuse, how men can protect themselves. Those men say women have until 25, they’re the gate keepers of “sex.” They make it seem like men and women are diametrically opposed
foes. I think there’s a huge lack in actual helpful male focused media. Like, I say the manosphere is awful, but I don’t readily know another space that could help men with their issues in less toxic ways. How many men have heard “just be yourself” or “work out” to solve their problems? When that’s all you hear, someone telling you something is better than nothing.TL;DR: I think men have the inverse problem. Women tend to have to be their own advocate for their treatment, but get the freedom to be cared for, heard, and have their mental health taken seriously. Men have the “power,” but not the freedom of expression, but a lot of that is the result of a society they created. It’s not so much “fathers need to teach their daughters how to treat men” (because I don’t think men are taught to even let women know that they have feelings, let alone telling their daughters), it’s that we need to allow men to be vulnerable and have people be supportive of them. We all teased the men for their alpha boot camps. Like women’s retreats aren’t weird either? I specifically remember a video of a man going “I am a man” while pushing some barrier and then crying in the man’s arms. He was ridiculed (and I was laughing too, I’m not innocent). Why? Why was that funny. He didn’t fall or do something dumb. He went to a program to find himself in some way, broke through a little, and was punished for it. Walz’s son is currently being hsrrased for crying by both men and women. What man wants to “feel” in that environment?
Your reply is really well thought out, and the crux of why I posted this meme in the first place (other than that I am a shitlord).
There are A. LOT. of shitty men out there. Tons. I hold a lot of disdain for my own sex, because the majority of them are caught up in the toxic masculinity paradigm and don’t even know it, or worse, refuse to acknowledge that it is indeed toxic. Even the male-orientated support communities often twist into some Jordan Petersen-esque Dutch oven. We have a lot of figuring out to do if we want to be healthy humans, and pave the way for future men to be healthy too. We need to be vulnerable with other men, and actually talk about thing bothering us. We need to build friendships that are built on more than just one shared hobby. The list goes on and on, and we have our work cut out for us
I agree with you, in that women don’t need to know how to treat men, because, like you say, it’s rammed down their fucking throats every time they turn around. What women need it to see the value in themselves, and stand up for it. Hit the bricks if he’s a twatwaffle. Men should do the same.
Finally, should you find yourself in a relationship, you need to take a hard look at your baseline assumptions. For instance, your partner is not there to make your life better, but rather compliment the already good life you supposedly have going on. They aren’t responsible for your emotional wellbeing. A good partner will certainly care about this and want to foster this, but it is not into them for you to be happy in the relationship.
Well said and very balanced
Oh, no it is. I’m an agent of chaos.
Whatever you have to tell yourself.
The reply speaks more loudly than the original comment.
Someone call an ambulance… BUT NOT FOR ME!
Better prep the burn ward!
This comment section is a shitshow and OP admits to being a troll. Locking this thread.
Unless I’m supposed to know the first guy for something, this is either nonsensical or fucking stupid in some way i haven’t thought of yet.
this might be the most bullshit statement i’ve ever heard in my life
from the day they’re born, girls are raised to submit to, obey, and make themselves the property of men and change their name to his. that’s only a few things in a long list of stupid bullshit that women have to deal with. i’m not surprised in the slightest when incels whine about “women aren’t throwing themselves at me every minute of every day!!!” but it’s never not funny
I don’t know what part of the world you grew up in, but that hasn’t been my experience at all. All the women I know have been brought up to know this is the old way, and any man who thinks along those lines is a man to avoid.
All the women I know have been brought up to know this is the old way, and any man who thinks along those lines is a man to avoid.
and i’m sure they’re thankful to you for speaking for all of them.
how many of them choose man instead of bear?
me when i repeat something someone has told me to someone else (I am speaking for them and drowning out their opinion)
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This experience exists and I’ll fight against it where I can. But it isn’t universal and relationships go both ways. If you can’t even conceive of an equal relationship between a man and a woman, then I can’t conceive of you as a feminist. It’s just misandry at that point.
lol as a dude, i find it hilarious to be called a misandrist.
ok, you got me
Women can experience internalised misogyny, you can also internalise your misandry
No, in most they aren’t raised to submit. Rather be independent and most end up thinking Man is optional and see no value in relationships. Only to hit the wall at 35
You’re not necessarily wrong in the last bit, but…
No, in most they aren’t raised to submit.
Bro, this ain’t slavery 😂
You know what I mean 😅
dont know why youre downvoted
Because the point the dude is making is valid if you take the misogyny out of it. That guy might be an absolutely sexist piece of shit I dont know.
But there are some very entitled women in the world, some women just dont realise that everything women DESERVE is a 2 way street. Ive broken up with women because they expect respect, gratitude and support from their partner in everything they do but give none of it in return.
I was a project car guy for a great many years and I had a girlfriend who complained about every dollar and hour I spent on it (despite me also doing the servicing and maintenance on her car) would say things like “When are you going to grow up?” Whenever I got excited about something for the car and (the moment I decided to break up with her) was when I finally buttoned up the last details on an engine swap and went into the house and said “Its FINISHED!” and she turned to a girlfriend she had over and said “Awww look, he thinks he is manly”
Now Imagine if my girl had come out to me and my mates working on the car and said “I got my hair done!” and I turned to the boys and said “Awwww look, she thinks she is pretty.” If I told her “I dont know why you bother” when she tried to cook or continually criticised her shopping and spending on clothes and makeup…
Men in a relationship deserve to be treated like a full and equal partner with feelings too.
You definitely have a point, and there are definitely women like the one you described in the world. Men 100% deserve to be treated with equality and respect. I’m sorry that you had that experience with your former partner. It’s a garbage, disrespectful move from someone who is supposed to have your back.
But your point does ignore the fact that a majority of women have been raised by parents and by society to be subservient to men. The person who posted this originally wanted to know why women aren’t taught how to treat men, but the fact is that we are. Constantly. Whether we want to be taught or not. Most of us have learned to do this so deeply that it’s second nature. Most of us don’t even remember learning it because that’s just the way that it is.
This is for a wide variety of reasons, but most of it boils down to men having control over the world for thousands of years and women trying to find the best way to survive and occasionally excel in a world made for and by men. Remember that we used to be (and often still are) considered property. It’s taken a really long time to get as far as we (women) have. My sex has only been able to vote in my country for 100 years. That’s not a lot of time to make major changes in public perception and major societal shifts. We’ve grown a lot, but these shifts come with growing pains.
If we lived in a world where women have to be taught how to treat a male partner well, that means that society isn’t doing the teaching anymore, and while yes, women should treat men with equivalent respect, it’s still a huge improvement societally that women don’t develop ingrained subservience. The woman that you previously dated sounds like part of those growing pains. Some people are always going to take things too far because the line had not previously been defined (even though the golden rule should be pretty common sense).
Conversely, men often have to be taught this because society doesn’t do the teaching. Society is cool with men following the status quo.
Does this give a woman a solid reason to treat another human like trash, no matter their gender? No. This is the big reason why I think feminism is so important. People hear that term and think it means pro-women only, but what it really means is equality for all genders. Full equality should be the goal even if it ends up hurting women a little. For example, one of the few privileges women have that men don’t have is in the courtroom. Women tend to have better outcomes because of biases about our weakness and innocence. Feminism would be working to dismantle something like that even if it gives women an advantage.
Equality is important, but understanding women’s historical growth and struggles is important, too. Women have been taught ad nauseum how to treat men well, but some women are going to make different choices. At the end of the day, I agree with you. I just want people to remember how hard the struggle was for women to get here, understand how far we still have to go to gain real equality, and respect the societal pressures that we deal with every day.
Conversely, men often have to be taught this because society doesn’t do the teaching. Society is cool with men following the status quo.
I wanted to briefly add to this that in WW1, one of the primary concerns of frontline commanders was that the soldiers literally couldn’t take care of themselves. They couldn’t sew, cook for even themselves, clean their clothes properly. I remember a quote from one soldier saying that, to paraphrase, ‘back home mom does everything.’ And then goes on to mention feeling rather helpless when doing even basic things a person needs to do to survive.
So I’m sorry about this entire thread, and, well, this entire issue, to insert my Canadian background on said issue.
I can see how careful you’re being with what you posted, and frankly, I’m sad you have to do that. The fact is men have had it easier for most of our history, and they really hate looking at said fact. Do men have legitimate issues? Absolutely, and feminism addresses them all. ‘The patriarchy’ hurts men and women both.
So, yeah, thank you. :)
I won’t lie; I cried a little when I read your comment. It’s really validating and rare to truly be seen. I do tread very carefully to be appropriate, fair, and reasonable in my responses, but I never really expected anyone to see that. I appreciate your comment more than I know how to say.
This is a tough topic because, like you said, it affects literally everyone, no matter their gender, and everyone has different experiences and opinions. I just want everyone who is forming an opinion to see as many different sides and experiences as possible to, at the very least, make an informed decision on the state of gender politics. I know that everyone has their personal biases, and no one wants to give up privileges or power, but at the end of the day, again, like you said, the patriarchy hurts all of us.
I appreciate you. <3
I won’t lie; I cried a little when I read your comment. It’s really validating and rare to truly be seen. I do tread very carefully to be appropriate, fair, and reasonable in my responses, but I never really expected anyone to see that. I appreciate your comment more than I know how to say.
Well fuck me, 'cause I shed a tear reading that, so consider it repaid. I don’t know how to respond either, other than to say it feels great to ‘hear’ you say that. I do see your struggle and if it helps any, there are more people like me who see it too, yet don’t know to (or how to) let you know.
I just want everyone who is forming an opinion to see as many different sides and experiences as possible to, at the very least, make an informed decision on the state of gender politics. I know that everyone has their personal biases, and no one wants to give up privileges or power, but at the end of the day, again, like you said, the patriarchy hurts all of us.
And I wanted to thank you for diving through all of the… responses here, and maintaining your composure. I won’t to pretend to understand how you do it, but it is extremely impressive. The moreso because we’re all fighting the same enemy (the wealthy) and again we see men jumping to attack a Lemmy Shitpost for being too unfair to men or whatever. The patriarchy of wealthy people are all our enemies.
I appreciate you. <3
So this is the part I really teared up, thank you very much. It never feels bad to hear it, and I appreciate you as well. I will continue to exist here, absorbing downvotes in my unchecked anger, watching you navigate through with poise.
I think that in fact in at least some cases the lack of respect (or general ability to live a relationship with a man in a mutually loving way) is exactly due to that education. At the end of the day the flipside of the “subservient” attitude is that the man in the relationship is represented as a provider, with all the gender stereotypes that come with it: lack of emotions, self-reliance and of course the expectation for him to be a provider. I would say that most of the examples of bad relationships in this thread boil down to exactly these dynamics.
Also we are not anymore in the 1950, so that education today mostly happens implicitly, but it also gets mixed up with a lot of other messages from the wider society.
I personally also disagree about the fact that men are not taught how to fit in their gender role. I think they are, since very little, symmetrically to how women are too and possibly even more explicitly: you need to protect women (incl. sacrificing because that’s what heroes do), the whole courtship thing, the fact that as a man you are responsible to provide for others, that there are certain activities that are manly, etc… Essentially is the exact same problem: gender stereotypes and sexism go both ways and impact both genders, although in different ways.
Feminism is a tool of the ruling class, like racism. A way to turn the working class against each other instead of the ruling class, the owners. That’s why they give feminism so much space in the media and in universities, because it doesn’t really touch the real issues of the world, the billionaires and millionaires exploiting everyone and everything. It doesn’t threaten their rule over the world, by design.
My sex wasn’t allowed to vote in my country 120 years ago either - because only the nobles, the landowners, the priests and the bourgeois were allowed to. Most of the people, regardless of sex, were not allowed to vote.
I would say that what you said applies not to feminism in general (who historically had strong links to class struggle and anticapitalism), but to a part of the modern status quo feminism which is focused purely on individuals and has been absorbed by the ruling class (e.g., once the CEO is a woman, the goal is reached). This is not a representation of feminism in general though, and I would say the same can apply to many other movements as well (e.g., ambientalism, antiracism, etc.) that (in part) lost their revolutionary nature and are left fighting for small changes within the status quo.
I’ve been screamed at a lot for daring to sit at the short edge of a rectangular table while in the presence of a man. Does that count for father-daughter lessons? This thread is wild.
I think you know why.
