- cross-posted to:
- aboringdystopia@mander.xyz
- cross-posted to:
- aboringdystopia@mander.xyz
Ticketmaster and Live Nation have destroyed the concert experience. But it didn’t use to be this way. Today, Oasis and Taylor Swift tickets might go for thousands of dollars, but back in 1955, you could see Elvis Presley in concert for less than the modern-day equivalent of $20.
You must log in or # to comment.
I just saw an article about how ticket sales are slumping, and that people aren’t willing to spend 600 per ticket anymore. The poor Ticketmaster CEO said that people just don’t want to.
Yep my dude, can’t be that you’ve changed concerts from “we should go see _______!” To “I guess it’s the one time in my life I’ll ever see them, I’ll go one time and then never again” level of special occasion. Seriously 600 dollars per person is nearing Disney level vacation money.
So yeah, of course money isn’t infinite. You hit the ceiling. Taylor and oasis may gather that much, but your other artists are going to suffer. I’ll be honest I paid 600 for Taylor. It was a once in a lifetime experience. But now they want me to pay something like 400 for any random music act that comes to town. No, Ticketmaster, she was my favorite, that was a one time thing. I’m not paying 400 to see like, Weezer.
Say it ain’t so!
Yeah to be fair if I were a big Taylor Swift fan and knew that she was actually going to be decent live, like could actually sing well and put on a good show, then this latest “Eras” tour does sound like a pretty good experience, since you’re getting music from her whole career which I’m assuming you wouldn’t get from her other standard gigs for like individual album releases (I guess you would to an extent but probably not to the same extent as this eras tour?)
However I actually still wouldn’t be able to go see her in that situation, cos I literally don’t have enough money for it, but I get the appeal. But it is insane that it has to cost so much for everyone.
I saw Eminem at Reading Festival a few years ago and because it was a festival, I suppose that makes up for it as I saw some other alright bands on the same day, but it was actually a shit performance from him. Well not him, but the sound was fucked up the entire time. The music was basically too loud so you could barely hear him rapping over the top. That would have been a truly shocking fucking experience if I had been paying £600 for a ticket though! I actually think you should be able to get a refund in cases like that. When there are clear technical faults going on. You hear it happen shockingly often, like you’d think they’d be able to work out how to at least get the sound sorted out for a gig!? That’s surely the equivalent of a faulty product where you would be able to take it back to shop for a full refund.
Yet I’ve never heard of anyone getting refunds for stuff like that, even when sound issues have been widely reported so were clearly a problem, not just someone’s individual opinion.
Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent but yeah…haha.
But that’s basically my point, is that they changed concerts from a casual affair to a once in a lifetime experience, where we have to choose our favorites we actually want to see, and can’t go see people we only casually like.
And yeah I totally get the risk aspect, because at that cost in the back of my head was “is this worth it? Was it worth the price?”
The one concert that is on my life long bucket list, for over 40 years, is to see Billy Joel live. He came to my local venue but I did not buy tickets because nose bleeds were over $400 and because I will not do business with Live Nation, period. It makes me sad but resolute.
Edit: For more context, I grew up hearing his music and I remember distinctly driving west on Java from Jakarta to the West coast in 1984 in a little piece of shit Daihatsu van my parents owned (that consistently burnt the bottoms of my feet because the exhaust was so close to the floor) and listening to Billy Joel on an eight track while bouncing and banging around on the awful roads on the way to the beach.
I just go support smaller artists that have below $50 shows
The joy of niche music taste: cheap live tickets to small venues, and cool merch. Multiple times I could have touched their instruments from the floor section.
The pain of niche music taste: Depending upon their genre and your city’s size, they may never come nearby you. New York and LA get everything, Kansas City folk better like country and speed-rap.
I mean I’ve seen more than a couple of shows at my local waterhole, and the price has been between free and $20. The $20 one was Moonhooch and absolutely worth it!
If you like listening to live music, it’s there, but it’s not T-Swizzle.
While they most certainly suck, so do most other people. As long as there will be a secondary market online someone will scalp tickets. Whether that’s some random asshole or these organized assholes hardly matters in most cases.
Of course with random assholes doing the scalping there is still a chance to get a cheap one by being faster, albeit a very slim one.
The LiveNation app has tickets being resold right in it.
The experience could be somewhat tamed by a lottery process.
Accept a token deposit for a week or two, and then draw from people contending for a given seat, then give them another week to pay the balance. Any unclaimed seats are put up at will call night-of-the-show. Limit the number of deposits taken from any given card to prevent “I’ll claim 30 seats and only buy 1” gaming of the lottery.
There’s probably some more complexity about it (if you want N seats together), but I think that would dramatically cut back on the frustration for “the tickets were only available for 14 seconds and the server was being DDOSed by scalper bots.”
Having to put down a deposit with no guarantee of a ticket also makes “buy All The Seats” scalping theoretically impossible and economically riskier. If there’s 5/1 contention for a ticket, you’d have to find a way to get 3 lottery slots for a better than even chance of getting it. If the deposit was $10, you’re spending $30 for the chance to buy a $50 ticket-- so if you can’t resell the ticket for at least $80, you lose. Under current policies, if you can sell that $50 ticket for $51, you’re ahead.
They need to stop bots and stop people buying over a certain amount of tickets each (I’m sure they do already usually limit tickets per person but people are obviously getting around it somehow). Because if you were only up against other fans who had a genuine interest in actually going to the gig themselves, not selling the tickets on, then you would be up against much much less people and you would get lucky a lot more often. Right now (or at least the last time I tried to buy tickets for something a few years ago) there was just no chance and the tickets were being resold in abundance within minutes, meaning it wasn’t genuine fans getting lucky over me.
I saw Metaliica for around $24 in 2004. From then on, I was on every gig of theirs in my country, until this year. This year I couldn’t afford to see them. It was fucking ~$320 (without the road to the venue, hotels, food and stuff)! It’s depressing.
deleted by creator
I suspect people now just go to see their, one, most favourite artist, maybe once every 5 years or something. As opposed to going to see one or two artists per year before. Or for people who want to be able to continue to go once or more a year, they just see newer artists who have reasonable prices.
I mean any real music fan these days, who doesn’t have a massive budget, should be going to festivals instead of individual gigs as these are massively better value for money.
I think Ticketmaster and Live Nation absolutely are to blame for hyperinflated ticket prices.
The fact that scalpers also operate is reprehensible.I will however say that production values of a modern gig are many factors higher than they were decades ago.
Safety standards are much higher, requiring more crowd control, more planning, more specialised equipment (both for the venue, and for the production).
It’s no longer “a stack of speakers and a mixing desk with 8 channels”. PA design and installation is both a science and an art in itself to achieve an even frequency response throughout as much of the venue as possible. Never mind the production of the actual music.
It’s no longer “120 par cans over the stage and a bunch of power”, it’s a huge quantity of intelligent lighting fixtures with months of planning and days of programming.
Never mind the video side of things requiring months of preproduction with kit that would make the lighting or sound budget look like fisher price.
And all of this has to be built and run with redundancy, so the equipment list is essentially doubled, and likely a lot of spares.
Venue costs are also higher. So all of that production has to be orchestrated to go in and come out in as fast a time as possible. And packed on and off trucks in specific ways to facilitate this. Logistics of a tour are intimidating.There are also entire university degrees based around these roles in production, people want and make a career out of touring. Places on tours are highly sought after.
Gigs are no longer just a band playing. There is a lot more show to it.
Whether this is actually what fans want is up for debate. And if it actually makes the experience better is also up for debate.Ticket prices are obscene, and I don’t think they are inline with the production provided.
However, if the live music is in demand then there will be people that pay. A band can only play so many gigs, and venues are limited.
Some of the increased cost can be attributed to making the job easier and safer for all the crew, staff and fans.
Some of the increased cost can be attributed “putting on a better show”.
Some of the cost can be attributed to some of these jobs moving from the “passion and hobby” to “a career”.
Some of these costs can be attributed to the increased skill level required to put on these gigs.
Some of these costs can be attributed general cost of living & inflation increases.
But I think most of the costs can be attributed to the exploitative behaviour of Ticketmaster etc.Mixing now requires phenomenally less equipment. We went from massive mixing boards to a collection of individual dials and now we are on very powerful digital modeling systems with a laptop interface.
Sure, these need to be dialed in at every venue, but most of the settings are staying close to the same to recreate a studio type sound with autotune turned slightly down and letting the chord change strum be left in.
Yeh, consoles and generally the engineering side has (somewhat) come down in price. But it is more expensive to actually use it in a live gig.
I don’t know anyone that would mix on a laptop for a live music gig (as opposed to a band at a conference/function) any larger than solo acoustic for 50-100 people.
It’s not that a physical control surface would make it sound better (well, especially with preproduction), but that a physical control surface allows you to react to the music faster. Anything more than 2 button presses away is too far for a live gig with any stakes.
Yes the technology is there, and it is doable. But just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. You are introducing massive disadvantages before you even start the gig.
Some comments on the increased complexity…
Wireless systems are more prevalent, along with IEMs. An 8 way stereo IEM system is a lot more than an 8 way monitor system. More expensive , and a lot more planning.
These days, it is much more common to have DSP amps, a channel (or even multiple channels) per box in an array, arrays are much bigger with additional fills and delays.
I’ve seen some of the daddy racks used in tours, they will be 2 or 3 x 30-40U racks of amps and systems per PA hang.The rigging for the PA is more precise, requires precise measurements (both physical and spectral), and it needs someone to actually run the PA.
All of this allows an install closer to the ideal PA for the gig, with tooling and simulation to plan it in advance. Which requires a lot broader skill set and planning than throwing in whatever PA you could hire and walking around until it’s good enough.
I’d say a tour 30-40 years ago was unlikely to have a dedicated systems tech dealing only with the PA. They’d likely supervise the install and some tuning, then be a patch monkey or monitor engineer or something. Or maybe just chill out until the derig.
These days, it’s not uncommon to have someone continually monitoring the PA, amps, desk racks etc. and it is as much a skill as engineering the actual band.20,000 people in a stadium having paid $20 a ticket is $400k budget per show. Seems like a lot, but a venue is going to cost anywhere between $100k and $500k per night.
100 crew/techs for the in, show & out is going to be $25k to $50k. Equipment hire is going to be anywhere from $50k to $500k.
Never mind rehearsal and pre-production costs.
There will be discounts for multiple nights and longer term hires, however anything like an actual tour has a lot of additional accommodation, travel and logistics costs & planning.Audience members going to a gig at a large stadium will have certain expectations, regardless of cost.
Tech crew are going to have certain expectations working at a stadium level gig. These are professionals at (most of the time) the peak of their career.While the equipment cost might be somewhat comparable (purchasing a couple Midas, outboard, splits, snakes would’ve been $100k to $250k. A redundant SD10 system with a monitor desk might be $150k to $350k and a hell of a lot more capable - analogue Vs digital sound arguments aside), it generally needs more people and more skill to be able to use and run these systems (analogue splits can be used drunk/hangover. Dante or madi have many layers of complication).
I’d say digital desks are a bit more fragile than analogue - when digital dies it’s dead, when analogue dies it sounds shit - which will increase the hire cost.
And by the time you have a desk that can make a live performance sound like a studio album, you also need a PA to back that up, and you need the kit to make sure the band is comfortable playing to that level.
Also, to attract reliable talent to actually work the gigs (not just the band and their requirements), a certain level of equipment is expected.Hell, I’ve been on gigs with dedicated coms techs. All they look after is networking and voice coms systems, and the kit they are deploying makes a video engineers eyes water (you know it’s a good gig when you see anything Riedel)
Modern gigs are on another level of complexity compared to the $20 gigs of Elvis’ time.
Even $40 a ticket in a 20k stadium doesn’t leave much wiggle room.
Then you have profits for the band and organisers. And the demand will drive up prices.Like I said, I think current big gig prices are exploitative.
But the comparison to gigs from decades ago isn’t a good one. Production capabilities are much higher, expectations are much higher, abilities and tech is much more refined.
You have to remember bands like The Beetles, Queen and Pink Floyd would be drowned out by the fans. Pretty shitty gig if you can’t hear the band.And that’s nothing to speak to lighting, video, production and artist management departments.
Sorry for the ramble. Halfway through a bottle of wine!
As much as I love working a GOOD budget gig, I’d rather have the equipment to be able to operate at the level I’m capable of - to the point that I no longer work the shitty gigs.
From what I understand though, this is actually more about people not purchasing albums anymore, so now artists have to basically make the bulk of their money from concerts.
Ticketmaster doesn’t force dynamic pricing for instance; that’s a choice the artist has made in order to maximise their profit from the ticket sales.
I don’t know if the tickets need to be quite as expensive as they are, for artists to make a profit - likely not. But they certainly are making a lot less money from the likes of Spotify than they used to make from albums sales, so it has to be a big part of the problem.
People like Oasis take the piss to be honest, because I doubt they’ve actually run out of money (according to this YouTube channel that was talking about them, they seem to think the brothers both still have plenty of 90s money, I dunno how you check this stuff… but yeah. Makes sense that they shouldn’t have spent it all unless they were really fucking stupid with their investments or lack thereof). So they really don’t need to be making this much money from the ticket sales, but for newer bands the Spotify thing should apply.
They charge as much as they can and have for a long time. They would still do it if they made lots of money from albums and streams.
What’s changed is the secondary market is controlled by the primary ticket sellers and they have better awareness of how much they can charge. People expectation of ticket prices has slowly changed and the prices always push at that.
Dynamic pricing exists now because it’s easier to implement. Not because the artists don’t have enough money.
