By Tyler Lyons On My Life Before Joining the Party Long before the onset of the COVID pandemic, I was struggling with my political identity. I had been disillusioned with…
I dont know why, but many people here (mostly americans in my experience) are rabidly allergic to the word “patriotism”. They seem to believe it means “jingoism” or “reactionary nationalism”, when in reality those bourgeois ideas are completely antipatriotic and treasonous. There is nothing more patriotic than being a communist, fighting for the people of your country. How are you not a patriot if you love your people and want them to have the life they deserve, instead of the misery imposed on them by capitalism?
I would say most people here are proud patriots of their respective countries, but if you tell this to many american comrades here, theyll get up in arms about how actually patriotism is reactionary and they arent patriots, even though they are indeed patriots, they just dont admit it for some reason. It reminds me of some self described anarchists whose beliefs are basically marxism leninism, but theyll deny being MLs because “thats a bad tankie word”. Truly a mistery why. Maybe its a reaction to the pervasive jingoism maskerading as patriotism in the USA idk.
Edit: To all the americans downvoting this, please read about the Communist Party of Greece (KKE), a very based party from an imperial core country which clearly states that they are patriots and that its their patriotic duty to oppose the EU and its imperialism.
Edit 2: Here are just 2 articles from the KKEs newspaper discussing patriotism and how its fully compatible with internationalism with quotes by Lenin:
Edit 3: Article by the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) discussing revolutionary patriotism. The PCE is quite liberal and opportunist, but even they recognize that patriotism and communism go hand in hand. How much more evidence do you need?
At what point? Before creation of the RSFSR and Soviet Union the standing theory was that the revolution will spread to entire world and there will be no nations and no need for patriotism. Only in 1915 Lenin wrote in his article “On the Slogan for a United States of Europe”:
“Uneven economic and political development is an absolute law of capitalism. Hence, the victory of socialism is possible first in several or even in one capitalist country alone.”
But as we all know he was wrong about this too, the revolution did not happened in the most developed countries and failed everywhere where it started in Europe except Russia. And from there onwards, patriotism become necessary. When more socialist countries appeared after WW2 and various revolutions, patriotism became concept which is indispensable. All of courrent AES countries are very patriotic, which you can’t have a slightest doubt when you watch theirm media, their parades and listen to their politicians.
So yes and no, they were patriots, but Soviet patriots.
In short, patriotism not only have class characteristics, but even more, do you remember last time when the same people who just heavily downvoted @SaddamHussein24 were claiming that non-socialists from antiimperialist countries should not be patriotic? Syrians, Iranians, Bolivians, etc? Me neither, because this allergy to the word itself is the pure american exceptionalism, and they understand this deep down, but somebody conditioned them to deny non-US communists somehow just the word. It’s also incredibly undialectic.
Continuing in the spirit of Lenin, patriotism is like democracy: you can have proletarian patriotism and you can have bourgeoise patriotism. It’s even very easy to distinguish - you can look at DPRK or CPC for proletarian patriotism, and you can look at Bashar or Putin for bourgeoisie patriotism.
Even more, if you read “Notes From the Gallows” by the czech communist Julius Fucik, written by him shortly before his execution by nazis, he wonder about it there - lack of patriotism is very often a accusation for the socialists. But aren’t the socialist the only ones that really work for the good of the people? Therefore only socialists are patriots. And indeed, look at the compradors ruling everywhere nowadays and helping the international bougeoisie loot their countries, look at puppet US dictatorships, at neoloberals… are those patriots even in the broadest, liberal sense of the word? No way in hell. Look even at the US administration, their capitalism is so rotten that entire US now only serve the military-industrial sector and top financiere, which is not even national by now, even that can hardly be called “patriotism”.
So yes, dogs of Pavlov, i am patriot for PRL, the state that was destroyed, and for the future socialist Poland. This absolutely does not conflict with hating current comprador shithole. And i’m seething seeing how supposed ML are such undialectic, and i got banned almost every from the sub administered by Americans characteristically for this. I ask the question even here is this one of those places, but no admin answered me.
I suppose my idea of patriotism has just been severely morphed by constant propaganda and indoctrination from early childhood into something that’s not patriotism at all, because I’ve never found it appealing for that reason. I’ve always interpreted patriotism to be “even if my country can do better, it is still fundamentally doing right things”.
Yes, this is the upbringing issue. I seen this in a lot of cases of American communists - it’s not that they want to be like that, but they don’t have any other way, it was hammered in their heads and it take really a lot to overcome this. But it does happen, and not only at this issue - there’s several where the US perspective is pretty unique - for example racism, where they project the unique US perspective on the entire world, and they just can’t help but use the US “race science” terminology even though they are really against that racist shit. You can also easily see this for example around the debate about Sakai’s “Settlers”.
Oh god yeah, US “race science”, the dumbest shit ever. Apparently “latino” is a race now, even tho so called “latinos” are just europeans who immigrated to America and mixed with local indigenous people. Just shows you how racist the USA is, even latin europeans are inferior to them, only anglos are “racially pure”.
During the 30s/40s the US was almost as rascist as the nazis, if you look at some of the war posters with mussolini, Tojo and Hitler, they would make Mussolini brown for some reason (i dont know how it happened but anglos and western europeans hardly even think of south europeans as actual europeans, there was even a lot of rascism against Italians that is alive even today, along with the rascism against latin americans, that are basically portuguese and spanish people), and of course there was the completelly grotesque and deshumanizing propaganda against the japanese, only the germans escaped from the rascism (hmmm i wonder why?). Oh but during the ww1 era, when the US was even more rascist, they also depicted german soldiers as “cultureless barbarians” and american soldiers specially hated germans and generally killed them on sight, even after they surrendered.
Talking about nazis, they haved awfully similar views with the americans when it was about race science, on the early stages of nazi germany they even thought latin people where “mediterraneans”, with could have easilly been used to demonize then like they did to slavs and jews, they only did not because they started sucking the dick of Franco, Salazar and mussolini because they haved no allies, only after the diplomacy with the latin countrys got better that they flipped the “mediterraneans” from “european black people” to “achtually they are just like us”, Yugoupnik made an exellent video dissecting the bs of the nazis.
Moral of the story: yankees are assholes, they are able to find ways of rascism that not even the nazis thought it would made sense, like bruh, how much whiter your cracker asses want me to be so you can shut the fuck up? I already have portuguese and italian blood on me, but it doesnt count for them i guess? Race science is the dumbest shit to ever exist since capitalism was born.
“Caucasian” is the funniest shit ever, it’s like they just took aryan bullshit then rubbed last two neurons together and seen that it is nonsense, but instead of noticing the entire thing is a nonsense they tried to update it with rudimentary geography… Which make the result even more missed since the real caucasian people are those that are absolutely not counted as “white” by US racists, and the russian racists even called them “Black Asses”. This gentleman for example, heard this one a lot in his life.
The idea of “races” in general is completely stupid. The truth is that so called “races” are just a continuos spectrum of human physical charachteristics. You have 2 extremes, very white people like in Norway for example, and very black people like in Mali for example. The rest is just people in between those 2 extremes, forming a continuos spectrum depending on how much melanin your skin produces.
Thank you for your support PolandIsAStateOfMind! I too am a patriot for the Second Spanish Republic, an extremely progressive state that would have 100% become socialist if not for the fascist invaders. I must point something out tho Comrade. I dont agree that Bashar Al Assad is bourgeois patriotism, i think hes proletarian patriotism, since imo baathism is a scientific socialist ideology, very heavily inspired from marxism leninism. I highly recommend this presentation explaining baathist socialism and why its scientific socialism:
But thats where you have been completely gaslighted by (im assuming you are american) your jingoistic education and media. Patriotism is about loving your country. Your country isnt made up of a state or an idelistic “ideal”, its made up of your people, the people who inhabit that country. Is it in the american peoples interest to support imperialism? No! Whats in their interest as workers is fighting imperialism, fighting their government. There is nothing patriotic about joining the US military and killing afghan children, thats bs that your government tells you to mantain their power. I would argue that whats patriotic is NOT joining the US military. Without anyone in the military to fight for their power, the US bourgeoisie cant rule. Thus, its a patriotic duty for every american to refuse to join the military, even if conscription were reinstated. It would be a patriotic duty to fight against the US state and for socialism. It would be a patriotic duty to support China, Russia, Cuba and other antiimperialist countries, because that gets the US closer to socialism and socialism is whats in the interests of the american people.
You should read the 2 articles from the Communist Party of Greeces newspaper i added to the original comment, which discuss patriotism. You can also read a quote from Mao i pasted down below in another comment, explaining why all communists should be patriots and why thats not incompatible with internationalism.
Just saw you added that question at the end mate. To answer it, YES, ofc the republicans called themselves patriots! Indeed, the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) actively appealed to patriotism and nationalism, by invoking historical spanish figures such as “El Empecinado”, hero of the spanish war of independence against Napoleon in the 1800s, in order to rally the masses against fascism. The Civil War was a patriotic struggle for independence and democracy, against Axis backed fascists. Here is a recent article by the PCEs newspaper discussing and upholding revolutionary patriotism, such as how it was used during the Civil War:
Not trying to super get involved in this conversation but I just wanted to say I am an American and I can see quality in both sides of the argument. I’m kind of a centrist about it. I personally would find it hard to call myself a “patriot” unless I was trying to, in a sense, lie to get people on board with MLism. I definitely am not hard against it though. “Patriot” has so much baggage in American culture, it’s almost synonymous with fascism, the more universal definition of the word that you’re using though I can vibe with.
Absolutely, US is in the kind of unique situation since even the discussion about state and nation is a riverlike topic, so the patriotism is the same.
However, the entire “patsoc” issue smells like fed op to divide american comrades from the rest of the world, coming to such absurd even in this thread it’s completely unbelievable for me.
Thank you! Finally someone with critical thought! This is exactly what i thought, i think americans MLs are conditioned to view patriotism very negatively due to how jingoistic and warmongering US “patriotism” is. I definetely understand that sentiment. I also understand not feeling very patriotic for whatever reason, i have never been very patriotic. But since i became ML, i realized that ive always loved the people, ive always liked helping others, even if they are strangers, and if you think about it, how is that not patriotism? I think thats much more patriotic than licking the flag and singing the anthem while being a selfish jerk.
I also want to make clear that, for me, patriotism doesnt necessarily mean liking/respecting/feeling pride towards state symbols such as the flag or the anthem. For example, i can understand why ML americans would feel disgust towards the flag and anthem of the USA, given its legacy of genocide, colonialism, slavery, imperialism, etc. I feel the same with the spanish state. I feel 0 pride or respect for the spanish flag, anthem or king, since these are reactionary symbols imposed on us by the fascist Franco regime. Rather, i feel much more patriotism towards the flag and anthem of the Second Spanish Republic. Under that flag and anthem, we were marching towards socialism, which is why i feel it represents the spanish people much better than all this monarchist bs.
So yeah, i understand if americans dont feel patriotic, thats ok. But plz stop these insane attacks on anyone who points out that yes, patriotism and communism go hand in hand. In the EU, jingoistic “patriotism” doesnt really exist besides the far right, so thats why patriotism doesnt really have a negative connotation here.
I’m a US citizen, and it’s hard for me to see what’s there to be proud of. The identity of the working class? Perhaps, but at that point, it’s being proud of something that, imo, is so far removed from the idea of America. It would be a bit strange for the bolsheviks to fidget over whether they should have
been proud of being part of the Russian Empire at one point, and for me, it’s quite the same as patriotism in imperial core countries.
The supposed message of being proud of the working class in imperial core countries always seems to get subordinated to the will of the capitalists in times of trouble and in war especially. Also, I don’t think that nationalism is necessarily a prerequisite to caring for the collective good of people in your country.
nationalism is [not] necessarily a prerequisite to caring for the collective good of people in your country.
Yes I totally agree with you and would take this one step further. Nationalism is necessary for ignoring the collective harm being done to people outside your country.
I originally meant patriotism, not nationalism. Though I still think the same about patriotism as well. I don’t think that’s a prerequisite for caring for the people around you either.
In the US, patriotism/nationalism are the same thing. Maybe patriotism is good in an ML society, but in a capitalist one it pits workers against their own class.
Mhm! It was a point that I similarly expounded on downards. Man the comment count on this is crazy 🥴. Trying to “reclaim it” is like swimming against the current in a monsoon. Maybe not the most scientific analogy, but you get it, hehe
To add on my previous response, i think this quote by Mao Zedong from the time of the japanese invasion of China is quite relevant on this:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
As you see, Mao clearly states, as indicated by the “” around the word “patriotism”, that the so called “patriotism” of the imperialists is false, that not only do the invaded and oppressed have the patriotic duty to fight back, but also the working class of the invader countries has the patriotic duty to fight back against their own government, since the war doesnt benefit them either. Thus, as Mao states, “[communists] not only can be [patriots], but also must be [patriots]” and this is fully compatible with internationalism. And this makes sense, the workers of the world have the same interest, to achieve socialism and then communism, so it only follows that by fighting for the interests of your countrys workers, thus being a patriot, you are also fighting for the interests of the workers of the whole world, thus being an internationalist.
Patriotism in the context of fighting in a war of literal self preservation and patriotism in the context of Americans just existing on a day to day basis are pretty different things. Everyday Americans aren’t victims of aggression of foreign invaders. Trying to isolate these quotes and ideas in a vacuum isn’t really encompassing of them in their entirety.
Patriotism has nothing to do with “being proud” of anything.
In America, it very much does, and again trying to isolate these ideas in a vacuum isn’t taking them as a whole. The reality is that in America, Patriotism, nationalism and jingoism might as well be the same thing. If you, as a Spaniard, want to be patriotic based on your understanding of the word then go for it.
despite what fake patriots (meaning the bourgeoisie) would want you to believe, your country is made up of its people, its not an abstract idealistic idea of “America” or any other country
When I say America, I’m talking about the government, it’s long history, foundation of oppression, and the willing participation from individuals in furthering that oppression for their own gain.
“you cant be patriotic of imperial core countries” and that if you do you are proimperialist is ridiculous
I never said this. Go back and read what I said. I said that in times of trouble and in war especially, ideas of patriotism have always been subordinated to the will of capitalists. In America, trying to hold on to the term patriotism in the hopes that people one day wake up and realize that well actually, patriotism is actually this socialist notion of love for your people and national liberation from the bourgeoisie is naive and will always be futile in the end. Trying to maintain your own specific definition of the word and not taking into account the historical and current conditions it exists is like trying to swim against the current. You end up getting swallowed.
Also i dont understand what your last sentence is about, i said nothing about nationalism.
There i meant patriotism, not nationalism. I was in the car typing fast.
You are the one isolating things in a vacuum, ignoring the whole world, engaging in american exceptionalism, that America somehow is different than the rest of the world, patriotism is bad there. Communist parties all around the world recognize this. Here are 3 articles from the Communist Parties of Greece and Spain defending patriotism:
Only in the USA do communist parties deny this reality, and this only extremely recently. Even the CPUSA, before 1991, followed the USSR line and defended patriotism. There are hundreds of photos of CPUSA meetings in the 1960s 1970s with american flags everywhere and a huge bust of Abraham Lincoln. You think we are “appeasing the right”? You are literally doing so! What is the argument the right always uses against communists? That we are unpatriotic, that we hate our country, that we are foreign agents. And instead of rejecting that label, as communist parties worldwide do, you embrace it! You say “yes, i am unpatriotic, i do hate America, i want to see America destroyed, i work for China”. You are the one appeasing the right! This is just like those who say “USSR wasnt real socialism”, ceding territory to the liberals in the hopes of winning them over.
We arent using a “alternative definition of patriotism”, we are literally using its normal definiton. Patriotism is loving your country. How is wanting all to have equal rights, free healthcare, full employment, true democracy and good living standards not loving your country? Lenin made a clear distinction between socialist and bourgeois patriotism. By denying that socialist patriotism exists in the USA you are literally engaging in american exceptionalism. You say patriotism has to do with the US government. Yet, even using liberal definitions of patriotism, how can the US government be patriotic? They serve international billionaires, they refuse to give their people the most basic necessities, theyd rathers serve Wall Street than their country. How is that patriotism? Thats not patriotism, its the opposite. Patriotism is fighting for your country, your people, so that they can have a good life and be proud of the society they live in. How is that not communism? You dont love your people or what? If so, why are you even a communist? What is there more patriotic than wanting to help your fellow countrymen, even if you dont know them? How is that not something a communist would do?
You keep repeating the same points, so this is the last thing I’ll say.
You keep trying to narrow things down to your own specific definition of your ideal version of patriotism. This version of patriotism that you speak of doesn’t exist in the US. US patriotism is highly jingoistic and inextricably tied to Imperialism. Holding on to it in the hopes that American people suddenly wake up and adopt your socialist version of patriotism
Even the CPUSA, before 1991, followed the USSR line and defended patriotism
This still doesn’t change the reality of the vast difference between the largest imperial power on the planet and a country that had already had it’s revolution and discarded any notions of the former Russian empire. Oh, Abraham Lincoln, truly the shining example of patriotism. The reality is that he was bloodthirsty and furthered the removal and genocide of Native Americans from their land. He said this about freeing slaves, “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that”. Yes, he was an abolitionist, but only on the contention that he wanted to “save the union” before anything else. You say that you would understand why American communists would hate the flag in a later response to someone else, but you point out the CPUSA waving around the US flag and upholding Lincoln as somehow good things.
While you’re mentioning the CPUSA, they had this nonsense to say about
Stalin and Mao, whoops!
You think we are “appeasing the right”? You are literally doing so! What is the argument the right always uses against communists? That we are unpatriotic, that we hate our country, that we are foreign agents. And instead of rejecting that label, as communist parties worldwide do, you embrace it! You say “yes, i am unpatriotic, i do hate America, i want to see America destroyed, i work for China”. You are the one appeasing the right! This is just like those who say “USSR wasnt real socialism”
The leaps you’re making here are unhinged. Who on earth said you were appeasing the right? You’re engaging in reddit level discussion right now. Once again, here’s what I said, patriotism in Imperial core countries is always subordinated to capitalists in times of trouble and war especially. That’s not saying that you’re being a willing participant in that, but that your own perception of patriotism and those alike are irrelevant if it doesn’t align with the aims of Capitalists in times of trouble/ war. Regardless of whatever definition you have of it, nothing will change the inextricable link between American patriotism and American jingoism.
What is the argument the right uses against communists? If you only adopt certain positions based on how reactionaries react to you, then I don’t know what to tell you. I could say “peace is good, i am a communist” and reactionaries would still find a way to flip that 180. I hate the United states, and it should wither away and go the way of the Russian empire.
They serve international billionaires, they refuse to give their people the most basic necessities, theyd rathers serve Wall Street than their country. How is that patriotism? Thats not patriotism, its the opposite.
None of that changes the political reality of what patriotism is in the US, and how it will continue to be used in the US. Once again, trying to cling to your own definition to try co-opt it from capitalist hegemony is like trying to swim upstream against a raging current. It’s futile. Patriotism in the US is and will always be linked to the oppression of people abroad and locally.
You continue peddling american exceptionalism! So the whole world has socialist patriotism, but not USA, USA is special. I never said Abraham Lincoln or US flag were good or bad. Im not american, its not up to me to choose which patriotic symbols the american people should identify with. If they like Lincoln and USA flag its ok, if they dont its ok. All i said is that american communist parties always used to be patriotic, until very recently when they decided to appeal to liberalism. Thus, its completely false that american patriotism is inherently reactionary, unless you are saying that 1960s CPUSA was reactionary. Why are you quoting a CPUSA article from 2020? Im talking about the CPUSA of the 1960s and 1970s, before CPUSA became full of liberals. Modern day CPUSA rejects patriotism.
Greece is an imperial core country, yet its communist party is very patriotic. Are they reactionary? All european communist parties are patriots. Greece, Spain, Italy, Moldova, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. Many of these countries are imperial core, so your argument is nonsense. Its an argument invented by post1991 US communists to justify their appeal to liberalism and american exceptionalism. Patriotism, like everything, has a class charachter. You have bourgeois and proletarian patriotism. You are talking about bourgeois patriotism, im talking about proletarian patriotism, which definetely exists in USA. What is it if not, when working class americans love their fellow americans and want to improve their lives, together? You are literally being patriotic right now, by wanting all americans to be free of oppression and exploitation and have good living standards and socialism, idk why you are so hell bent on denying it.
Patriotism has nothing to do with “being proud” of anything. Were the CPC and the KMT proud of anything when they started the reunification wars? Ofc not, and thats exactly why they started those wars. Patriotism is about loving your country, and, despite what fake patriots (meaning the bourgeoisie) would want you to believe, your country is made up of its people, its not an abstract idealistic idea of “America” or any other country. China was in shambles, and it was the CPCs patriotic duty to rebuild it and save the chinese people.
This idea that “you cant be patriotic of imperial core countries” and that if you do you are proimperialist is ridiculous and doesnt exist outside of the USA. If you dont believe me, read the party programmes of european communist parties and what they have to say. A good example is the Communist Party of Greece (KKE), an ML antirevisionist and very big party that led the fight against the austerity imposed on Greece by the EU after the 2008 crisis. The KKE openly says that they are patriots, and that its their patriotic duty to oppose the EU and its global imperialism. Most european communist parties say the same thing, and the few that dont tend to be the most proiimperialist liberal and eurocommunist ones.
You americans keep repeating this lie, but its false, and all you have to do is look outside your borders to see im right. Idk why you are so obsessed with this idea, maybe its a reaction to the toxic jingoism you have over there, which calls itself “patriotism” but is not. There is nothing patriotic about joining the US military and drone striking afghan children. In fact, i would say its the opposite, its every americans patriotic duty to NOT join the US military, since the only thing that allows US capitalists to mantain their power is having enough cannon fodder to fight for them in the military.
Also i dont understand what your last sentence is about, i said nothing about nationalism.
Noone talking about national liberation here, we are talking about patriotism. I guess the Communist Party of Greece are reactionary patsocs then lol ¯_(ツ)_/¯
But sure, you can just accuse me of “being an american chauvinist” i guess, even tho im a spaniard with no relation to the anglosphere whatsoever, english isnt even my native language. The truth is, as that Mao quote clearly states, that all communists must be patriots. And that doesnt mean “praising your government” or “praising your flag” or anything like that. It just means you love your country and its people. There is nothing more patriotic than being a communist, communist parties all over the world acknowledge this, in Latin America, Europe, Africa, Asia and Oceania. Its only in the USA that you deny this. My guess is because you have been brainwashed by your media and education system that patriotism is bootlicking the flag, the police, the military and the Founding Fathers. Patriotism is noone of that. Noone who advocates for capitalism is a patriot, since they are more than happy to let their people suffer in misery. This is the truth, the whole world except you recognizes it.
Also sectarian? What is this lie? The KKE is anything but sectarian. They literally have an “independent party policy”, which means that, no matter what the position of the party on something is, they will not cut ties with other communist parties even if there are big disagreements. As long as a party is communist, they consider them comrades. Thats why they created the International Meeting of Communist and Workers Party, where they regularly invite communist parties from all around the world with very different ideologies, some even pacifist reformists like the Communist Party of Japan. They also invite CPUSA, which you seem to like. But yeah sure, KKE is sectarian.
They are not anti AES, they have bilateral ties with the CPC and regularly invite them to the aforementioned meeting. They are just critical of chinese investment in Greece, and frankly you cant blame them, many greek workers have died in workplace accidents at chinese owned firms, and the chinese investors have been anything but helpful, instead choosing to barricade themselves with lawyers, rather than paying reparations. I personally think its the greek governments fault, not Chinas, but you cant blame the KKE for being suspicious of this.
Ohhh, there we go, if you are homophobic then you are not a communist. So the strongest nonrevisionist/reformist communist party in the EU, the only strong EU communist party that has not joined NATO in its antiRussia crusade, the only EU communist party that consistently fights labor struggles for workers rights, that advocates revolution, that praises Stalin and denounces Khrushchev, is a reactionary party. Got it. I bet you love trotskyite parties that get 300 votes while spreading antiChina rhethoric.
Then i guess the USSR and the CPSU were evil reactionary patsocs. Same with Cold War era Cuba and its Communist Party. Also the modern day Russian, Belarusian, Moldovan, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, and many more Communist Parties. Also the DPRK and its Workers Party. Also the Communist Party of China. Yep, they are all evil, they are homophobic, and thats the most important contradiction, forget imperialism!
Wow, and you call yourself a communist? Rejecting an entire mass movement, one of the few strong principled Communist parties that still remain today, just because of social conservatism? You are not a communist, you are a proimperialist moron, thats what you are.
What neonazis did they support? And yes, the Communist Party of China, Workers Party of Korea, Lao Peoples Revolutionary Party and even the Communist Party of Vietnam are homophobic nowadays, in 2022. Do you condemn those too as reactionary?
Ill simplify it for you. Marxism leninism is inherently patriotic. All sincere MLs are patriots, because they fight for their people. Only communists are true patriots. If you support capitalism, you are not a patriot, because you support leaving your people in misery. All MLs, even in imperialist nations, must be patriotic. That patriotism doesnt mean praising their imperialist regimes, it means opposing them. For all workers of the world, fighting imperialism is a patriotic duty.
This is the conclusion of the argument. The rest is quotes and articles justifying that position. Hope it helped.
Lenin disavowed “patriotism” unless specifically of oppressed, colonized nations. The Bolsheviks and the original Maoists only considered themselves “patriots” in the sense of the new socialist nations being established, and they destroyed and disavowed artifacts and the cultural narratives of capitalist Russia and Republic of China.
99 percent of “neutral” politically apathetic and oppressed groups would be suspicious of communists that call themselves patriotic, and calling yourself patriotic is an unhelpful empty phrase.
You argument is of using masking and shifting language to appease neoliberals and spit in the face of oppressed groups just to increase the power and reach of socialist groups by maybe a grand total of 2 percent, while alienating those we are supposed to be fighting for and protecting.
You can say all you want about being “patriotic” and wax sand about patriotism not being the same as praising imperialist regimes or figures, but you are still using right-wing language and neoliberal thought for no gain and all risk.
This is completely false, no classic marxist ever said this. Either that, or Mao Zedong is a “right wing neoliberal” as you say:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
As Mao says, the communist MUST be a patriot, since fighting imperialism is not only in the interests of the imperialized peoples, but also in the interests of the working class of the imperialist countries. This states it clearly. All communists must be patriots, since communism is a patriotic duty.
Furthermore, literally ALL communist parties worldwide, except in the USA because you are weird, are openly patriotic. The Communist Party of Greece (KKE), a ML antirevisionist antiimperialist strong and very popular party, is openly patriotic and claims fighting imperialism is a patriotic duty. They openly state in their newspaper. Same with the Communist Party of Spain (PCE), which appealed to spanish patriotism and nationalism during the Civil War to rally the masses against fascism. The PCE retains this position to this day, they are patriots. Spain and Greece are imperialist countries, so how does your theory work again?
Links:
Here are just 2 articles from the KKEs newspaper discussing patriotism and how its fully compatible with internationalism with quotes by Lenin:
Article by the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) discussing revolutionary patriotism. The PCE is quite liberal and opportunist, but even they recognize that patriotism and communism go hand in hand. How much more evidence do you need?
You are still purposefully misusing and construing patriotism as being the same as national liberation.
Caring about the people in your country and wanting to dismantle the existing power structure to create something better isn’t patriotism.
I hesitate to trust liberal and opportunist groups, but KKE isn’t opportunist and I like them.
I still say calling national liberation struggles for international socialism is a pointless label, and Lenin decried American patriotism. In times of war, those in the imperial core should desire the defeat of their own government.
Thats what you dont understand. Patriotism has nothing to do with your government. For those in imperial core countries, revolutionary defeatism IS PATRIOTIC. Thats what Mao is saying right there: “To bring about the defeat of the japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means IS IN THE INTERESTS of the japanese and german people”. There is nothing unpatriotic about revolutionary defeatism, because revolutionary defeatism is in the interests of the people, and what is patriotism if not fighting for the interests of your people? Patriotism isnt supporting wars by your imperialist government, thats bourgeois “patriotism”, as Mao also clearly states. Every communist party around the world recognizes this, its just you weirdo yankees who deny this.
mate I think you’ve got some valid points alongside PolandIsAStateOfMind but you and them have delved into reddit/youtube-like internetspeak and extremely uncomradely behavior with people even engaging in good faith. I’m aware upthread someone was engaging in bad faith, but I’d just recommend reflecting for a second before shitting on people with questions asking about or discussing the issue from a genuine place.
I dont think i have been rude to anyone, but ok. The only person i was rude to is “Makan CPUSA”, but thats because he literally dismissed the Communist Party of Greece, a massive party for which hundreds of thousands of greek communists died for and that hundreds of thousands of greek workers put their faith in, as reactionary just because they are homophobic. This is pure yankee arrogance, it has no other name, and it should be called out, im sure youll agree.
So why do ya think patriotism is whatgets us yanks rabid? At this point Yankee MLs can see through the “commodification”, if you will, of “democracy” and “freedom” but not “patriotism”? Is it us yanks think, patriotism equals proud of country, and country equals the empire? So being patriotic is supporting the Empire, then. Instead of let’s say for a metaphor the people are the cells of your body and imperialism is a horrendous diesease. Patriotism would be wanting the best of your body’s ability so the overthrow of the diesease. While Yank MLs think patriotism is supporting the diesease that will infect others. Hope this made sense, thanks for your work in combating us yanks narrow world view, SH24.
Thanks man, i agree with you. I dont exactly know why americans have this weird view. Some like Caleb Maupin suggest this is promoted by the CIA to divide the american left. This seemed farfetched to me, although lately im thinking its not as unlikely. It could also just be a reaction to the pervasive jingoism and chauvinism that maskerades as “patriotism” in the USA. The people who tend to be the most “patriotic” in USA, the trump alt right, are often racist and white supremacist, so i can see why US leftists would see patriotism negatively. Glad to have helped you consider different perspectives.
I dont know why, but many people here (mostly americans in my experience) are rabidly allergic to the word “patriotism”. They seem to believe it means “jingoism” or “reactionary nationalism”, when in reality those bourgeois ideas are completely antipatriotic and treasonous. There is nothing more patriotic than being a communist, fighting for the people of your country. How are you not a patriot if you love your people and want them to have the life they deserve, instead of the misery imposed on them by capitalism?
I would say most people here are proud patriots of their respective countries, but if you tell this to many american comrades here, theyll get up in arms about how actually patriotism is reactionary and they arent patriots, even though they are indeed patriots, they just dont admit it for some reason. It reminds me of some self described anarchists whose beliefs are basically marxism leninism, but theyll deny being MLs because “thats a bad tankie word”. Truly a mistery why. Maybe its a reaction to the pervasive jingoism maskerading as patriotism in the USA idk.
Edit: To all the americans downvoting this, please read about the Communist Party of Greece (KKE), a very based party from an imperial core country which clearly states that they are patriots and that its their patriotic duty to oppose the EU and its imperialism.
Edit 2: Here are just 2 articles from the KKEs newspaper discussing patriotism and how its fully compatible with internationalism with quotes by Lenin:
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
Its in greek but just use google translate.
Edit 3: Article by the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) discussing revolutionary patriotism. The PCE is quite liberal and opportunist, but even they recognize that patriotism and communism go hand in hand. How much more evidence do you need?
https://www.mundoobrero.es/pl.php?id=10161
deleted by creator
At what point? Before creation of the RSFSR and Soviet Union the standing theory was that the revolution will spread to entire world and there will be no nations and no need for patriotism. Only in 1915 Lenin wrote in his article “On the Slogan for a United States of Europe”:
“Uneven economic and political development is an absolute law of capitalism. Hence, the victory of socialism is possible first in several or even in one capitalist country alone.”
But as we all know he was wrong about this too, the revolution did not happened in the most developed countries and failed everywhere where it started in Europe except Russia. And from there onwards, patriotism become necessary. When more socialist countries appeared after WW2 and various revolutions, patriotism became concept which is indispensable. All of courrent AES countries are very patriotic, which you can’t have a slightest doubt when you watch theirm media, their parades and listen to their politicians.
So yes and no, they were patriots, but Soviet patriots.
In short, patriotism not only have class characteristics, but even more, do you remember last time when the same people who just heavily downvoted @SaddamHussein24 were claiming that non-socialists from antiimperialist countries should not be patriotic? Syrians, Iranians, Bolivians, etc? Me neither, because this allergy to the word itself is the pure american exceptionalism, and they understand this deep down, but somebody conditioned them to deny non-US communists somehow just the word. It’s also incredibly undialectic.
Continuing in the spirit of Lenin, patriotism is like democracy: you can have proletarian patriotism and you can have bourgeoise patriotism. It’s even very easy to distinguish - you can look at DPRK or CPC for proletarian patriotism, and you can look at Bashar or Putin for bourgeoisie patriotism.
Even more, if you read “Notes From the Gallows” by the czech communist Julius Fucik, written by him shortly before his execution by nazis, he wonder about it there - lack of patriotism is very often a accusation for the socialists. But aren’t the socialist the only ones that really work for the good of the people? Therefore only socialists are patriots. And indeed, look at the compradors ruling everywhere nowadays and helping the international bougeoisie loot their countries, look at puppet US dictatorships, at neoloberals… are those patriots even in the broadest, liberal sense of the word? No way in hell. Look even at the US administration, their capitalism is so rotten that entire US now only serve the military-industrial sector and top financiere, which is not even national by now, even that can hardly be called “patriotism”.
So yes, dogs of Pavlov, i am patriot for PRL, the state that was destroyed, and for the future socialist Poland. This absolutely does not conflict with hating current comprador shithole. And i’m seething seeing how supposed ML are such undialectic, and i got banned almost every from the sub administered by Americans characteristically for this. I ask the question even here is this one of those places, but no admin answered me.
deleted by creator
Yes, this is the upbringing issue. I seen this in a lot of cases of American communists - it’s not that they want to be like that, but they don’t have any other way, it was hammered in their heads and it take really a lot to overcome this. But it does happen, and not only at this issue - there’s several where the US perspective is pretty unique - for example racism, where they project the unique US perspective on the entire world, and they just can’t help but use the US “race science” terminology even though they are really against that racist shit. You can also easily see this for example around the debate about Sakai’s “Settlers”.
Oh god yeah, US “race science”, the dumbest shit ever. Apparently “latino” is a race now, even tho so called “latinos” are just europeans who immigrated to America and mixed with local indigenous people. Just shows you how racist the USA is, even latin europeans are inferior to them, only anglos are “racially pure”.
During the 30s/40s the US was almost as rascist as the nazis, if you look at some of the war posters with mussolini, Tojo and Hitler, they would make Mussolini brown for some reason (i dont know how it happened but anglos and western europeans hardly even think of south europeans as actual europeans, there was even a lot of rascism against Italians that is alive even today, along with the rascism against latin americans, that are basically portuguese and spanish people), and of course there was the completelly grotesque and deshumanizing propaganda against the japanese, only the germans escaped from the rascism (hmmm i wonder why?). Oh but during the ww1 era, when the US was even more rascist, they also depicted german soldiers as “cultureless barbarians” and american soldiers specially hated germans and generally killed them on sight, even after they surrendered.
Talking about nazis, they haved awfully similar views with the americans when it was about race science, on the early stages of nazi germany they even thought latin people where “mediterraneans”, with could have easilly been used to demonize then like they did to slavs and jews, they only did not because they started sucking the dick of Franco, Salazar and mussolini because they haved no allies, only after the diplomacy with the latin countrys got better that they flipped the “mediterraneans” from “european black people” to “achtually they are just like us”, Yugoupnik made an exellent video dissecting the bs of the nazis.
Moral of the story: yankees are assholes, they are able to find ways of rascism that not even the nazis thought it would made sense, like bruh, how much whiter your cracker asses want me to be so you can shut the fuck up? I already have portuguese and italian blood on me, but it doesnt count for them i guess? Race science is the dumbest shit to ever exist since capitalism was born.
“Caucasian” is the funniest shit ever, it’s like they just took aryan bullshit then rubbed last two neurons together and seen that it is nonsense, but instead of noticing the entire thing is a nonsense they tried to update it with rudimentary geography… Which make the result even more missed since the real caucasian people are those that are absolutely not counted as “white” by US racists, and the russian racists even called them “Black Asses”. This gentleman for example, heard this one a lot in his life.
The idea of “races” in general is completely stupid. The truth is that so called “races” are just a continuos spectrum of human physical charachteristics. You have 2 extremes, very white people like in Norway for example, and very black people like in Mali for example. The rest is just people in between those 2 extremes, forming a continuos spectrum depending on how much melanin your skin produces.
Thank you for your support PolandIsAStateOfMind! I too am a patriot for the Second Spanish Republic, an extremely progressive state that would have 100% become socialist if not for the fascist invaders. I must point something out tho Comrade. I dont agree that Bashar Al Assad is bourgeois patriotism, i think hes proletarian patriotism, since imo baathism is a scientific socialist ideology, very heavily inspired from marxism leninism. I highly recommend this presentation explaining baathist socialism and why its scientific socialism:
https://youtu.be/ufJzwzdM8sE
Peace Comrade! ✊
But thats where you have been completely gaslighted by (im assuming you are american) your jingoistic education and media. Patriotism is about loving your country. Your country isnt made up of a state or an idelistic “ideal”, its made up of your people, the people who inhabit that country. Is it in the american peoples interest to support imperialism? No! Whats in their interest as workers is fighting imperialism, fighting their government. There is nothing patriotic about joining the US military and killing afghan children, thats bs that your government tells you to mantain their power. I would argue that whats patriotic is NOT joining the US military. Without anyone in the military to fight for their power, the US bourgeoisie cant rule. Thus, its a patriotic duty for every american to refuse to join the military, even if conscription were reinstated. It would be a patriotic duty to fight against the US state and for socialism. It would be a patriotic duty to support China, Russia, Cuba and other antiimperialist countries, because that gets the US closer to socialism and socialism is whats in the interests of the american people.
You should read the 2 articles from the Communist Party of Greeces newspaper i added to the original comment, which discuss patriotism. You can also read a quote from Mao i pasted down below in another comment, explaining why all communists should be patriots and why thats not incompatible with internationalism.
Just saw you added that question at the end mate. To answer it, YES, ofc the republicans called themselves patriots! Indeed, the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) actively appealed to patriotism and nationalism, by invoking historical spanish figures such as “El Empecinado”, hero of the spanish war of independence against Napoleon in the 1800s, in order to rally the masses against fascism. The Civil War was a patriotic struggle for independence and democracy, against Axis backed fascists. Here is a recent article by the PCEs newspaper discussing and upholding revolutionary patriotism, such as how it was used during the Civil War:
https://www.mundoobrero.es/pl.php?id=10161
Not trying to super get involved in this conversation but I just wanted to say I am an American and I can see quality in both sides of the argument. I’m kind of a centrist about it. I personally would find it hard to call myself a “patriot” unless I was trying to, in a sense, lie to get people on board with MLism. I definitely am not hard against it though. “Patriot” has so much baggage in American culture, it’s almost synonymous with fascism, the more universal definition of the word that you’re using though I can vibe with.
Absolutely, US is in the kind of unique situation since even the discussion about state and nation is a riverlike topic, so the patriotism is the same.
However, the entire “patsoc” issue smells like fed op to divide american comrades from the rest of the world, coming to such absurd even in this thread it’s completely unbelievable for me.
Thank you! Finally someone with critical thought! This is exactly what i thought, i think americans MLs are conditioned to view patriotism very negatively due to how jingoistic and warmongering US “patriotism” is. I definetely understand that sentiment. I also understand not feeling very patriotic for whatever reason, i have never been very patriotic. But since i became ML, i realized that ive always loved the people, ive always liked helping others, even if they are strangers, and if you think about it, how is that not patriotism? I think thats much more patriotic than licking the flag and singing the anthem while being a selfish jerk.
I also want to make clear that, for me, patriotism doesnt necessarily mean liking/respecting/feeling pride towards state symbols such as the flag or the anthem. For example, i can understand why ML americans would feel disgust towards the flag and anthem of the USA, given its legacy of genocide, colonialism, slavery, imperialism, etc. I feel the same with the spanish state. I feel 0 pride or respect for the spanish flag, anthem or king, since these are reactionary symbols imposed on us by the fascist Franco regime. Rather, i feel much more patriotism towards the flag and anthem of the Second Spanish Republic. Under that flag and anthem, we were marching towards socialism, which is why i feel it represents the spanish people much better than all this monarchist bs.
So yeah, i understand if americans dont feel patriotic, thats ok. But plz stop these insane attacks on anyone who points out that yes, patriotism and communism go hand in hand. In the EU, jingoistic “patriotism” doesnt really exist besides the far right, so thats why patriotism doesnt really have a negative connotation here.
I’m a US citizen, and it’s hard for me to see what’s there to be proud of. The identity of the working class? Perhaps, but at that point, it’s being proud of something that, imo, is so far removed from the idea of America. It would be a bit strange for the bolsheviks to fidget over whether they should have been proud of being part of the Russian Empire at one point, and for me, it’s quite the same as patriotism in imperial core countries.
The supposed message of being proud of the working class in imperial core countries always seems to get subordinated to the will of the capitalists in times of trouble and in war especially. Also, I don’t think that nationalism is necessarily a prerequisite to caring for the collective good of people in your country.
Yes I totally agree with you and would take this one step further. Nationalism is necessary for ignoring the collective harm being done to people outside your country.
I originally meant patriotism, not nationalism. Though I still think the same about patriotism as well. I don’t think that’s a prerequisite for caring for the people around you either.
In the US, patriotism/nationalism are the same thing. Maybe patriotism is good in an ML society, but in a capitalist one it pits workers against their own class.
Mhm! It was a point that I similarly expounded on downards. Man the comment count on this is crazy 🥴. Trying to “reclaim it” is like swimming against the current in a monsoon. Maybe not the most scientific analogy, but you get it, hehe
To add on my previous response, i think this quote by Mao Zedong from the time of the japanese invasion of China is quite relevant on this:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
Source: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_10.htm
As you see, Mao clearly states, as indicated by the “” around the word “patriotism”, that the so called “patriotism” of the imperialists is false, that not only do the invaded and oppressed have the patriotic duty to fight back, but also the working class of the invader countries has the patriotic duty to fight back against their own government, since the war doesnt benefit them either. Thus, as Mao states, “[communists] not only can be [patriots], but also must be [patriots]” and this is fully compatible with internationalism. And this makes sense, the workers of the world have the same interest, to achieve socialism and then communism, so it only follows that by fighting for the interests of your countrys workers, thus being a patriot, you are also fighting for the interests of the workers of the whole world, thus being an internationalist.
Patriotism in the context of fighting in a war of literal self preservation and patriotism in the context of Americans just existing on a day to day basis are pretty different things. Everyday Americans aren’t victims of aggression of foreign invaders. Trying to isolate these quotes and ideas in a vacuum isn’t really encompassing of them in their entirety.
In America, it very much does, and again trying to isolate these ideas in a vacuum isn’t taking them as a whole. The reality is that in America, Patriotism, nationalism and jingoism might as well be the same thing. If you, as a Spaniard, want to be patriotic based on your understanding of the word then go for it.
When I say America, I’m talking about the government, it’s long history, foundation of oppression, and the willing participation from individuals in furthering that oppression for their own gain.
I never said this. Go back and read what I said. I said that in times of trouble and in war especially, ideas of patriotism have always been subordinated to the will of capitalists. In America, trying to hold on to the term patriotism in the hopes that people one day wake up and realize that well actually, patriotism is actually this socialist notion of love for your people and national liberation from the bourgeoisie is naive and will always be futile in the end. Trying to maintain your own specific definition of the word and not taking into account the historical and current conditions it exists is like trying to swim against the current. You end up getting swallowed.
There i meant patriotism, not nationalism. I was in the car typing fast.
You are the one isolating things in a vacuum, ignoring the whole world, engaging in american exceptionalism, that America somehow is different than the rest of the world, patriotism is bad there. Communist parties all around the world recognize this. Here are 3 articles from the Communist Parties of Greece and Spain defending patriotism:
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
https://www.mundoobrero.es/pl.php?id=10161
Only in the USA do communist parties deny this reality, and this only extremely recently. Even the CPUSA, before 1991, followed the USSR line and defended patriotism. There are hundreds of photos of CPUSA meetings in the 1960s 1970s with american flags everywhere and a huge bust of Abraham Lincoln. You think we are “appeasing the right”? You are literally doing so! What is the argument the right always uses against communists? That we are unpatriotic, that we hate our country, that we are foreign agents. And instead of rejecting that label, as communist parties worldwide do, you embrace it! You say “yes, i am unpatriotic, i do hate America, i want to see America destroyed, i work for China”. You are the one appeasing the right! This is just like those who say “USSR wasnt real socialism”, ceding territory to the liberals in the hopes of winning them over.
We arent using a “alternative definition of patriotism”, we are literally using its normal definiton. Patriotism is loving your country. How is wanting all to have equal rights, free healthcare, full employment, true democracy and good living standards not loving your country? Lenin made a clear distinction between socialist and bourgeois patriotism. By denying that socialist patriotism exists in the USA you are literally engaging in american exceptionalism. You say patriotism has to do with the US government. Yet, even using liberal definitions of patriotism, how can the US government be patriotic? They serve international billionaires, they refuse to give their people the most basic necessities, theyd rathers serve Wall Street than their country. How is that patriotism? Thats not patriotism, its the opposite. Patriotism is fighting for your country, your people, so that they can have a good life and be proud of the society they live in. How is that not communism? You dont love your people or what? If so, why are you even a communist? What is there more patriotic than wanting to help your fellow countrymen, even if you dont know them? How is that not something a communist would do?
You keep repeating the same points, so this is the last thing I’ll say.
You keep trying to narrow things down to your own specific definition of your ideal version of patriotism. This version of patriotism that you speak of doesn’t exist in the US. US patriotism is highly jingoistic and inextricably tied to Imperialism. Holding on to it in the hopes that American people suddenly wake up and adopt your socialist version of patriotism
This still doesn’t change the reality of the vast difference between the largest imperial power on the planet and a country that had already had it’s revolution and discarded any notions of the former Russian empire. Oh, Abraham Lincoln, truly the shining example of patriotism. The reality is that he was bloodthirsty and furthered the removal and genocide of Native Americans from their land. He said this about freeing slaves, “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that”. Yes, he was an abolitionist, but only on the contention that he wanted to “save the union” before anything else. You say that you would understand why American communists would hate the flag in a later response to someone else, but you point out the CPUSA waving around the US flag and upholding Lincoln as somehow good things.
While you’re mentioning the CPUSA, they had this nonsense to say about Stalin and Mao, whoops!
The leaps you’re making here are unhinged. Who on earth said you were appeasing the right? You’re engaging in reddit level discussion right now. Once again, here’s what I said, patriotism in Imperial core countries is always subordinated to capitalists in times of trouble and war especially. That’s not saying that you’re being a willing participant in that, but that your own perception of patriotism and those alike are irrelevant if it doesn’t align with the aims of Capitalists in times of trouble/ war. Regardless of whatever definition you have of it, nothing will change the inextricable link between American patriotism and American jingoism.
What is the argument the right uses against communists? If you only adopt certain positions based on how reactionaries react to you, then I don’t know what to tell you. I could say “peace is good, i am a communist” and reactionaries would still find a way to flip that 180. I hate the United states, and it should wither away and go the way of the Russian empire.
None of that changes the political reality of what patriotism is in the US, and how it will continue to be used in the US. Once again, trying to cling to your own definition to try co-opt it from capitalist hegemony is like trying to swim upstream against a raging current. It’s futile. Patriotism in the US is and will always be linked to the oppression of people abroad and locally.
You continue peddling american exceptionalism! So the whole world has socialist patriotism, but not USA, USA is special. I never said Abraham Lincoln or US flag were good or bad. Im not american, its not up to me to choose which patriotic symbols the american people should identify with. If they like Lincoln and USA flag its ok, if they dont its ok. All i said is that american communist parties always used to be patriotic, until very recently when they decided to appeal to liberalism. Thus, its completely false that american patriotism is inherently reactionary, unless you are saying that 1960s CPUSA was reactionary. Why are you quoting a CPUSA article from 2020? Im talking about the CPUSA of the 1960s and 1970s, before CPUSA became full of liberals. Modern day CPUSA rejects patriotism.
Greece is an imperial core country, yet its communist party is very patriotic. Are they reactionary? All european communist parties are patriots. Greece, Spain, Italy, Moldova, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. Many of these countries are imperial core, so your argument is nonsense. Its an argument invented by post1991 US communists to justify their appeal to liberalism and american exceptionalism. Patriotism, like everything, has a class charachter. You have bourgeois and proletarian patriotism. You are talking about bourgeois patriotism, im talking about proletarian patriotism, which definetely exists in USA. What is it if not, when working class americans love their fellow americans and want to improve their lives, together? You are literally being patriotic right now, by wanting all americans to be free of oppression and exploitation and have good living standards and socialism, idk why you are so hell bent on denying it.
Patriotism has nothing to do with “being proud” of anything. Were the CPC and the KMT proud of anything when they started the reunification wars? Ofc not, and thats exactly why they started those wars. Patriotism is about loving your country, and, despite what fake patriots (meaning the bourgeoisie) would want you to believe, your country is made up of its people, its not an abstract idealistic idea of “America” or any other country. China was in shambles, and it was the CPCs patriotic duty to rebuild it and save the chinese people.
This idea that “you cant be patriotic of imperial core countries” and that if you do you are proimperialist is ridiculous and doesnt exist outside of the USA. If you dont believe me, read the party programmes of european communist parties and what they have to say. A good example is the Communist Party of Greece (KKE), an ML antirevisionist and very big party that led the fight against the austerity imposed on Greece by the EU after the 2008 crisis. The KKE openly says that they are patriots, and that its their patriotic duty to oppose the EU and its global imperialism. Most european communist parties say the same thing, and the few that dont tend to be the most proiimperialist liberal and eurocommunist ones.
You americans keep repeating this lie, but its false, and all you have to do is look outside your borders to see im right. Idk why you are so obsessed with this idea, maybe its a reaction to the toxic jingoism you have over there, which calls itself “patriotism” but is not. There is nothing patriotic about joining the US military and drone striking afghan children. In fact, i would say its the opposite, its every americans patriotic duty to NOT join the US military, since the only thing that allows US capitalists to mantain their power is having enough cannon fodder to fight for them in the military.
Also i dont understand what your last sentence is about, i said nothing about nationalism.
This is a dumb talking point.
United States is an oppressor nation, not an oppressed state in need of national liberation.
@muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml Looks like we got another person repeating PatSoc talking points.
Noone talking about national liberation here, we are talking about patriotism. I guess the Communist Party of Greece are reactionary patsocs then lol ¯_(ツ)_/¯
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
Its in greek but just use google translate.
But sure, you can just accuse me of “being an american chauvinist” i guess, even tho im a spaniard with no relation to the anglosphere whatsoever, english isnt even my native language. The truth is, as that Mao quote clearly states, that all communists must be patriots. And that doesnt mean “praising your government” or “praising your flag” or anything like that. It just means you love your country and its people. There is nothing more patriotic than being a communist, communist parties all over the world acknowledge this, in Latin America, Europe, Africa, Asia and Oceania. Its only in the USA that you deny this. My guess is because you have been brainwashed by your media and education system that patriotism is bootlicking the flag, the police, the military and the Founding Fathers. Patriotism is noone of that. Noone who advocates for capitalism is a patriot, since they are more than happy to let their people suffer in misery. This is the truth, the whole world except you recognizes it.
The KKE is pretty sectarian and cringe and homophobic/transphobic, yes.
Also sectarian? What is this lie? The KKE is anything but sectarian. They literally have an “independent party policy”, which means that, no matter what the position of the party on something is, they will not cut ties with other communist parties even if there are big disagreements. As long as a party is communist, they consider them comrades. Thats why they created the International Meeting of Communist and Workers Party, where they regularly invite communist parties from all around the world with very different ideologies, some even pacifist reformists like the Communist Party of Japan. They also invite CPUSA, which you seem to like. But yeah sure, KKE is sectarian.
They are anti-China and anti-AES.
lmao
They are not anti AES, they have bilateral ties with the CPC and regularly invite them to the aforementioned meeting. They are just critical of chinese investment in Greece, and frankly you cant blame them, many greek workers have died in workplace accidents at chinese owned firms, and the chinese investors have been anything but helpful, instead choosing to barricade themselves with lawyers, rather than paying reparations. I personally think its the greek governments fault, not Chinas, but you cant blame the KKE for being suspicious of this.
Ohhh, there we go, if you are homophobic then you are not a communist. So the strongest nonrevisionist/reformist communist party in the EU, the only strong EU communist party that has not joined NATO in its antiRussia crusade, the only EU communist party that consistently fights labor struggles for workers rights, that advocates revolution, that praises Stalin and denounces Khrushchev, is a reactionary party. Got it. I bet you love trotskyite parties that get 300 votes while spreading antiChina rhethoric.
Then i guess the USSR and the CPSU were evil reactionary patsocs. Same with Cold War era Cuba and its Communist Party. Also the modern day Russian, Belarusian, Moldovan, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, and many more Communist Parties. Also the DPRK and its Workers Party. Also the Communist Party of China. Yep, they are all evil, they are homophobic, and thats the most important contradiction, forget imperialism!
Wow, and you call yourself a communist? Rejecting an entire mass movement, one of the few strong principled Communist parties that still remain today, just because of social conservatism? You are not a communist, you are a proimperialist moron, thats what you are.
We should also rename the Great Patriotic War apparently :/
Socialism is when LGBT rights, the more LGBT rights the more socialister it is, and when you have no LGBTphobia, then its communism.
They supported neo-Nazis only a few years ago over some liberal candidate. And they’re incredibly homophobic/transphobic in 2022.
Go away.
Will you substantiate your accusation of the KKE collaborating with nazis?
What neonazis did they support? And yes, the Communist Party of China, Workers Party of Korea, Lao Peoples Revolutionary Party and even the Communist Party of Vietnam are homophobic nowadays, in 2022. Do you condemn those too as reactionary?
You’re using a lot of words to say nothing
Ill simplify it for you. Marxism leninism is inherently patriotic. All sincere MLs are patriots, because they fight for their people. Only communists are true patriots. If you support capitalism, you are not a patriot, because you support leaving your people in misery. All MLs, even in imperialist nations, must be patriotic. That patriotism doesnt mean praising their imperialist regimes, it means opposing them. For all workers of the world, fighting imperialism is a patriotic duty.
This is the conclusion of the argument. The rest is quotes and articles justifying that position. Hope it helped.
Lenin disavowed “patriotism” unless specifically of oppressed, colonized nations. The Bolsheviks and the original Maoists only considered themselves “patriots” in the sense of the new socialist nations being established, and they destroyed and disavowed artifacts and the cultural narratives of capitalist Russia and Republic of China.
99 percent of “neutral” politically apathetic and oppressed groups would be suspicious of communists that call themselves patriotic, and calling yourself patriotic is an unhelpful empty phrase.
You argument is of using masking and shifting language to appease neoliberals and spit in the face of oppressed groups just to increase the power and reach of socialist groups by maybe a grand total of 2 percent, while alienating those we are supposed to be fighting for and protecting.
You can say all you want about being “patriotic” and wax sand about patriotism not being the same as praising imperialist regimes or figures, but you are still using right-wing language and neoliberal thought for no gain and all risk.
This comment by someone else further demonstrates my position:
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/279497/comment/227690
This is completely false, no classic marxist ever said this. Either that, or Mao Zedong is a “right wing neoliberal” as you say:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
Source: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_10.htm
As Mao says, the communist MUST be a patriot, since fighting imperialism is not only in the interests of the imperialized peoples, but also in the interests of the working class of the imperialist countries. This states it clearly. All communists must be patriots, since communism is a patriotic duty.
Furthermore, literally ALL communist parties worldwide, except in the USA because you are weird, are openly patriotic. The Communist Party of Greece (KKE), a ML antirevisionist antiimperialist strong and very popular party, is openly patriotic and claims fighting imperialism is a patriotic duty. They openly state in their newspaper. Same with the Communist Party of Spain (PCE), which appealed to spanish patriotism and nationalism during the Civil War to rally the masses against fascism. The PCE retains this position to this day, they are patriots. Spain and Greece are imperialist countries, so how does your theory work again?
Links:
Here are just 2 articles from the KKEs newspaper discussing patriotism and how its fully compatible with internationalism with quotes by Lenin:
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
Its in greek but just use google translate.
Article by the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) discussing revolutionary patriotism. The PCE is quite liberal and opportunist, but even they recognize that patriotism and communism go hand in hand. How much more evidence do you need?
https://www.mundoobrero.es/pl.php?id=10161
You are still purposefully misusing and construing patriotism as being the same as national liberation.
Caring about the people in your country and wanting to dismantle the existing power structure to create something better isn’t patriotism.
I hesitate to trust liberal and opportunist groups, but KKE isn’t opportunist and I like them.
I still say calling national liberation struggles for international socialism is a pointless label, and Lenin decried American patriotism. In times of war, those in the imperial core should desire the defeat of their own government.
Thats what you dont understand. Patriotism has nothing to do with your government. For those in imperial core countries, revolutionary defeatism IS PATRIOTIC. Thats what Mao is saying right there: “To bring about the defeat of the japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means IS IN THE INTERESTS of the japanese and german people”. There is nothing unpatriotic about revolutionary defeatism, because revolutionary defeatism is in the interests of the people, and what is patriotism if not fighting for the interests of your people? Patriotism isnt supporting wars by your imperialist government, thats bourgeois “patriotism”, as Mao also clearly states. Every communist party around the world recognizes this, its just you weirdo yankees who deny this.
mate I think you’ve got some valid points alongside PolandIsAStateOfMind but you and them have delved into reddit/youtube-like internetspeak and extremely uncomradely behavior with people even engaging in good faith. I’m aware upthread someone was engaging in bad faith, but I’d just recommend reflecting for a second before shitting on people with questions asking about or discussing the issue from a genuine place.
I dont think i have been rude to anyone, but ok. The only person i was rude to is “Makan CPUSA”, but thats because he literally dismissed the Communist Party of Greece, a massive party for which hundreds of thousands of greek communists died for and that hundreds of thousands of greek workers put their faith in, as reactionary just because they are homophobic. This is pure yankee arrogance, it has no other name, and it should be called out, im sure youll agree.
You’re regurgitating my point.
Please stop raging.
So why do ya think patriotism is whatgets us yanks rabid? At this point Yankee MLs can see through the “commodification”, if you will, of “democracy” and “freedom” but not “patriotism”? Is it us yanks think, patriotism equals proud of country, and country equals the empire? So being patriotic is supporting the Empire, then. Instead of let’s say for a metaphor the people are the cells of your body and imperialism is a horrendous diesease. Patriotism would be wanting the best of your body’s ability so the overthrow of the diesease. While Yank MLs think patriotism is supporting the diesease that will infect others. Hope this made sense, thanks for your work in combating us yanks narrow world view, SH24.
Thanks man, i agree with you. I dont exactly know why americans have this weird view. Some like Caleb Maupin suggest this is promoted by the CIA to divide the american left. This seemed farfetched to me, although lately im thinking its not as unlikely. It could also just be a reaction to the pervasive jingoism and chauvinism that maskerades as “patriotism” in the USA. The people who tend to be the most “patriotic” in USA, the trump alt right, are often racist and white supremacist, so i can see why US leftists would see patriotism negatively. Glad to have helped you consider different perspectives.