A reason is an explanation. An excuse is an attempt to shift responsibility.
Many people will create a disingenuous reason to absolve themselves of responsibility.
For instance, if someone sleeps in and leaves home 15 minutes late in the morning and arrives to work late, they may honestly say, “traffic was terrible on highway 7.” And while it’s true that if traffic had magically been nice that day they’d have made it on time, the honest reason they’re late is because they slept in. The traffic is their excuse.
This isn’t really a neurotypical vs atypical thing. Some people are just assholes and want to exert control over others/don’t value the reasoning of others.
Not autistic, but I teach people with mild cases of autism.
The “excuse” I most often hear is that they haven’t started doing the work they’re supposed to be doing, because they didn’t have their computer there.
That’s less of a reason and more of an excuse, because the solution is easy for these kids. “Go get the computer”. They know they can, and in fact often do.
The real reason is that they’d rather sit and chat with their friends instead of doing work (who doesn’t?), and if they were honest about that, I’d appreciate it a lot more.
Often, I guess you could equate an excuse to a “bad reason”.
A reason that you could have solved.
I mean, yeah, you’re not wrong.
And I do solve these all the time, but it’s his computer, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect he’d bring it when he realizes he needs it for his work?
The only reason I call it an “excuse” is because it’s not the real reason, or at least it isn’t the full reason. We know what the real reason is. He admits as much when we talk as well, and that’s fine.
I’m not some super strict and punishing teacher who looks for reasons (or excuses) to punish these kids. Rather, I try to talk to them and understand them, which is why I’m also here in this community :)
Hi @Focal@pawb.social. I’m a late identified and DXed #ActuallyAutistic individual here with pretty much an entire autistic/neurodivergent family that has been studying autism from a internal perspective as well as externally through the greater autistic community since my clinical DX back in 2020 - not just someone who teaches kids with “mild autism”.
You are wrong in quite a few counts here - let me respectfully explain:
First off let me address the biggest one. This is a bit long but insanely important so bear with me: There is no such thing as “mild”, “moderate”, or “severe” autism. Language really matters here because the way we speak about autism directly affects how much assistance, acceptances, accommodations and affirmation autistic individuals get within greater society. This externally perceived version of “autism severity” is the number one reason I lived for almost three full decades before I was even seen as autistic. It is very harmful.
Autism is a SPECTRUM. Not a “gradient” as so many individuals perceive it to be. For any artists or artistically inclined readers on here - all of us should know the difference. A gradient is a blending of one or more colors in a linear fashion, your most common representation as black to white with all the varying tonalities of grey in the middle . That is NOT representative of autism whatsoever. It is not a linear condition.
Autism is clinically listed in the DSM5 as Autism **spectrum ** Condition (or “ASC”, which is what I personally prefer than “disorder”, or “ASD” because Autism is a neurotype, but I will get into that later) for a reason: a spectrum is a full scale color wheel with the entire visible light spectrum we see as color. It contains all primary, secondary and tertiary colors including shades and tints of each from dark to light. It is a much wider range of presentations, symptoms, experiences and expressions.
Instead of a gradient starting at mild and ending at severe - think of autism like a color wheel where each color is separated into its own gradient starting from the center of the color wheel to the outer edge. Each color represents a perceived autistic trait or symptom - not how their autism presents as a whole, but just one of those elements. Lets take being hyper-verbal or nonverbal for instance and assign that particular autism-related trait to the color red. I might be closer to the outer edge of the color wheel in this “red” section but in the blue section, let’s say blue represents executive dysfunction and getting tasks done in a neurotypically expected time frame, I might be closer to the center of the color wheel (I struggle a lot with C-PTSD surrounding certain cleaning tasks and also am ADHD which also has its own executive functioning difficulties around task management and completion). THIS is a much more accurate representation of what autism really is and feels like to an #ActuallyAutistic person. You can easily google visual representations of this by searching “Autism Color Wheel” or “Autism Spectrum vs Gradient”.
“Then what can I say that denotes how much someone struggles with their autism?” - One word. Masking. Masking is just what it sounds like. Some autistic individuals have lived a life where they are able to mask their presentations and symptoms at different levels - I am one such individual due to my upbringing as a female-socialized girl into woman (which I am using for simplicity despite being more non-binary myself). Masking does not imply that the impact of being autistic is lessened at all however. I still experience the full breadth and width of being autistic in a extremely neurotypicallized world. But I have learned to conceal it to the outside perspective for my own safety. Masking is not always conscious. There is a lot of fawning and people pleasing trauma responses that we simply learn over time unconsciously as a direct result of trial and error.
For instance, when I was little, one of my favorite stims (self-stimulation, or “stimming” is a self regulating response to stress of attempt to focus) was to chew handfuls of hair or the collar of my t-shirts. Obviously - my mother didn’t care for that and instead of providing me with an acceptable alternative, she told me to stop it all together. The need to stim didn’t leave me - it just went internally where it caused a bunch of psychological stress and harm that would go into overload if I didn’t find another way to externalize the need to regulate. I only masked it and made it externally invisible - but it still affected me internally. It is for this reason why although so many autistic individuals know how to mask to the point that they look neurotypical or “less autistic”.
I didn’t stop being autistic when I internalized my external needs (which can be so inherently psychologically dangerous and causes a lot of depression and self-harmful thoughts to even the point of wishing to be un-alived) I masked my autistic traits so I wouldn’t be bullied or reprimanded or singled out anymore. That didn’t take my autistic needs or traits away - it just hid them from external view. I am just as autistic as I was when I was little, I just have learned strategies to cope and get by with my difficulties in public - but behind closed doors I still exhibit “little girl” stims and challenges. I still have meltdowns. I still have times of situational mutism and go non-verbal. I still flail and flap my arms when I am emotionally dysregulated.
Ok, with that out of the way: respectfully yet again (my aim is to educate; not hound on you despite the length of this post - that’s just because this stuff isn’t super simple to cover and requires a bit of clarification before going on to my next point:
Please, don’t ever assign “real reasons” without first speaking to your autistic student. As you might have surmised above (if you even read this far. I promise I will do a TLDR at the end); from an external perspective: you will NEVER fully know the reason for why an autistic individual does something unless you ASK THEM. Unfortunately, depending on the level of self-awareness and internal discovery work the autistic individual in question has done - they might not rightfully know. Or - they might not yet have the language to verbally express what they know, or might have not yet heard their own lived experiences echoed in someone else’s account of a similar situation. I know I didn’t. I had no idea about half of the autistic spectrum-y things I do or need until I heard it voiced from another autistic. I am still learning all the ways my neurological wiring affects me (oh yea: “Neurotype” is how someone is neurologically wired - think different types of operating systems like MAC vs PC or Apple vs Windows. “Neurotypical” is like one, “Neurodivergent” is like the other; they still function - just very differently from one another. But if you try to open a program built for one in the other - it just doesn’t work).
Remember assuming reasons or intent for anyone only makes an ASS out of U and ME. Instead - just like you should with any human that deserves respect (which should be all of them if you are a decent person) you should ask your students why they are doing whatever is upsetting you or seems to be “non compliant”. They might not even know - but it does not give you any right to assign intent or reason for what they are doing. That is just poor educatorship . Instead, do some more research and make an inferred hypothesis and then CHECK with your students by **asking ** them if u are getting close to what might be going on.
Personally; my hypothesis to the above scenario in your comment is that the verbal excuse they have given you is a default excuse they have learned to give out of ignorance to the real reason they either might not know or might not know how to verbalize what is actually going on in a way that would be palatable to your expectations. They probably also know that you are more likely to not listen to their actual explanation and deem you too reactive to even grace you with a more eloquently verbalized actual reason - such as executive dysfunction or trauma responses which are both reasonable explanations for neurodivergent individuals and deserve assessment and accommodation for the task if needed. If a student of yours is having executive functioning difficulties with an assigned task - it is up to you as their educator to figure out why they are by speaking to them and come up with an accommodation or provide them with either mental or physical tools to better do the task requested.
That is not a failure on them; that is a failure fully on you - as being an educator is much more than just telling people to do things and expecting them to do them without error or issue. Being an educator is about being flexible to your students needs -regardless of neurotype or invisible disability (or physical disability for that matter). If I were in your shoes; I would do my damnedest to learn how to better accommodate and assist differently abled and differently neurologically wired individuals and stop assigning intent and reason to why you are having challenges teaching these individuals.
“Excuse vs Explanation” is a huge topic of mine that I love to educate on - but frankly, without the above groundwork to precede it there is no way to explain and educate you. If you have gotten this far I will grant you this: Excuses are often perceived as “lazy” reasons why someone wont do something. It assumes that there is no logical reason - externally or internally - for someone to not comply with a task. It assumes incompetence, it assumes intent on not doing the task out of sheer insolence and insubordination. Very rarely is this actually the case.
If you have zero idea the struggles your students face as neurodivergent individuals - not just in your classroom, but in the world and society
I really appreciate the way you describe autism more as a colour wheel than a gradient. I think that’s a very good visual for me to understand. I’m a bit unsure about the language I’m supposed to use when this kid in particular is so high functioning though. If we’re talking about a color wheel here, would it be fair to say he’s got a fairly desaturated form of autism then? Or that his color mostly blends in with the rest of the neurotypical class?
Or is it all just “masking”? How does autistic type masking differ from the masking everyone has to do just to fit into society at all?
To address some of your concerns here, I believe I’ve been somewhat misunderstood here and you’ve assumed something about me that isn’t true. I do talk to these kids all the time. It’s my job to talk to them and to understand them, and I do it with joy :)
This is not an assumption with the kid. I’m asking them and digging a bit deeper, and the kid tells me that he didn’t have his computer there.
I ask him if he brought it to school, and he did. It just wasn’t in front of him and he tells me he was more interested in the conversation he had with his classmate instead. That’s fine, that’s not something I get annoyed with, I just go “alright, chop chop. Talk while you work, and you’ll be good” and the situation is solved.
When I only get “the PC isn’t here”, and we’ve been through this song and dance many a time before, then I do get a little exasperated, though not outwards, and I am flexible in the whole ordeal.
There’s a reason I put “excuse” in quotation marks in my original post here. It’s a bad reason, or at least not the full reason. That’s what the original question was about, too.
So I understand that you’re very, very passionate about this topic, and I get that you try to keep it respectful as well, but I will add that I also definitely feel mischaracterized here, and that makes the message a lot harder to accept for me (though I do agree with your points here and I also appreciate your color wheel explanation).
I basically feel scolded for something I didn’t do. Even if you might not mean to, it feels like you’re calling me a failure as an educator, and I can guess most people who had a teacher like that didn’t learn a lot from them.
It’s a good response, which I hope they’ll receive genuinely. But when someone responds with a two-part treatise, my suspicion is that it’s usually not about you, so I wouldn’t take it as a personal scolding.
What I often see, autistic or not, is that people often respond to broader issues reflected in the wording and framing of an individual comment and want to respond to that. This is fair and acceptable as long as one differentiates which part is responding to the individual comment(ator) and which part is the broader issue.
Ironically @SaphiraGrace, while providing great information about autism spectrum, has made assumptions about you and your own experiences by lecturing you about not making assumptions, rather than asking you about what you meant.
Still this is in context of neurodivergent folks getting the shafted end of assumptions in general, so I must respect that. It does demonstrate though that reflecting on our own assumptions and treating each other kindly is something everyone must practice if we are to be responsible for how our behaviour impacts others, whether we’re neurodivergent or not.
I appreciate that a ton, honestly. Thanks for your comment.
I did definitely learn something here though, but am also left with a lot of questions. I dove into the ICD-11 to read more about the diagnosis.
Didn’t find much about the differences in nuance regarding masking to fit into society for neurodivergents and masking to fit into society for neurotypicals, but I’m sure I’ll find more soon now that the question has been formulated.
Anyway, thank you again. Helps put my mind at ease :)
For sure. And your job is deeply important and anyone who takes it seriously, with kindness and an open mind, is aces in my book.
Re: masking, my ignorant hot take would be that the difference is less about a difference in kind of masking rather than a difference in the amount (frequency, duration, intensity) of masking. I’d say society places much higher demands in cognitive load from masking on neurodivergent folks overall compared to neurotypicals, because neurotypicals will often naturally behave in socially acceptable ways… because what’s socially acceptable is often defined (not exclusively) by what is typical.
That definitely makes sense to me. Thanks for bouncing ideas like these with me :)
To address your question about high functioning and masking. Those definitely do not imply a “desaturated autism”, such is simply a social perception from outsiders.
Somewhere within the values of their colour wheel there is potential to develop certain skills. Some of those skills may as you say blend in either because they are the same skill or they developed an unique skill that is perceived as normalcy.
Different situations require different skills, being in a classroom is different from being at home, a dinner party or having to take the bus.
Some kids may have it easier to be perceived as high functional in your class because they have matching skills. But are unable to function in any other situations. They are masking in the sense that you are unable to perceive that they do not function the same way in situations where you are not there. In fact your personal experience may make your an easier person to talk to and create a bias of seeing higher functions. I know an example of someone who functioned very well in school, never was suspected of being related to autism, believed they where normal themselves, had a friend group, good grades. Then ended up in a mental facility months after graduating because they had no way of understanding how life worked or how to maintain there current social relations beyond the very rigid and rule based nature of the school they had been going to.
The kids who developed their own skills may appear not recognizable within this group but may actual suffer an intense energy drain that you can’t see. Potentially crashing some other times. They are masking what i would call a form of imposer syndrome. They only show what they know you will accept as normal. For me this means showing results and hiding the methods. I am biased to call this group highly (differently) functional because i am a part of it. But my experience is that people genuinely often do not understand my natural flow of reasoning and constructive thinking to the point of dismissal and ridicule. But i have learned how to frame my results in a form that they will recognize as the correct answer (even if i feel that answer is barely acceptably accurate).
There are times i am so drained and so low i stop being able to form sentences properly and people who don’t know me well will look at me like i am clearly intellectually challenged (i am reasoning perfectly fine within my mind, i don’t need language to do so), then other times i impress someone with something basic and now they expect me to be a genius every single task. This is the “why” the distinctions of mild or severe is harmful. Correct functioning is always bound to a context to function within.
Very useful clarification. Thank you for sharing! I’ll refrain from calling autism mild or severe in the future. That’s the wording that the institution that tells teachers what needs these kids have use for them, so I just took that as a base when I talked about them too.
Could you elaborate on the hiding method, but present results-part? I find understanding people who think in different ways than me to be one of the most interesting things in the world, and something I appreciate the hell out of.
I recognize that some of the older teachers I work with can get annoyed if you don’t do it in their method, or they can dismiss an answer if they don’t understand the method in an instant.
I’m honestly constantly in friction with these teachers because I am “nicer” to the kids than they are when we grade tests. I spend a lot more time per test, but will always try to understand the kids’ reasoning first and foremost, and it’s always fun when I find ways of thinking that are totally valid, but I had never considered.
Its hard to explain hiding methods because they depend on the situation. Its much easier as an adult then as a child because i am not questioned as much.
On my job i can work mostly independently and have acquired positive credibility.
I’ll give you a pattern i distinctly remember from school.
Pre context: I was always unable to concentrate to the live lesson that was occurring i still cant do phone calls for the same reason. Because i often still stared in the right direction this was more frequently not noticed (though enough to still have the label). Then when we had to do a task i suddenly notice everyone moving and i had no idea what the class even about.
But i was very good at independently interpreting the knowledge in a given handbook or on a blackboard, very quickly. So in the beginning i was able to catch up and start on the assignment during this same time and eventually i started to secretly learn independently during the class.
I have 2 distinct memories of situations that occurred as a result.
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i was scolded multiple times for not paying attention, which did happen frequently but now was because i was obviously looking in the book and writing when i was supposed to listen. But from my perspective i was paying attention to the source material actively doing my best to understand it. That really broke something me.
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we got a new math teacher in middle of the year. They gave us a test but apparently my class was not yet taught the formulas required. This only came to light when someone complained as we got the graded test back. The teacher singled my test out as proof that we had already seen it because “i” did have the correct answer… My class was not happy.
For the record i have never been able to memorize any mathematical formula. Instead i use the question to estimate a possible answer, reverse engineer a formula from the deducted answer to then solve the problem normally. In some way this will pattern on its own where i first solve it my own way in order to understand what other people expected and then writing down those expectations is a form of masking and hiding.
On my job i am selective to who i let in on certain “shortcuts” and alternative flows that i discovered.
If this reply lacks sense, i typed it in 3 parts over the course of hours.
Hah, I see. It’s real interesting. A few of the kids of mine have the same way of working, so we’ve agreed on them being allowed to work the way they want to. If they need computers to work, they’re allowed to. If they struggle to listen to the lecture for the rest of the class, that’s fine. As long as they’re not disruptive, they’re allowed to work on stuff their own way.
Also, I also don’t like teaching rote memorisation-stuff. I just give the kids formulas on tests and ask them to understand which one to use. No memorization, just understanding.
My philosophy is just that “if you understand it, you won’t need to memorize it”.
In any case, I’m sorry to hear you’ve had such a shitty school situation. That’s not the school-system I’m used to. I’m used to looking for situations where the kids can prove what they can do, not looking for what they can’t do. If kids are disruptive, underperforming or whatever, we find out why. We may not always be able to solve all the problems, but we spend a significant amount of time trying to accommodate for the kids’ needs.
May I ask where you’re from?
I’m teaching in Norway.
Oh damn apparently i already posted but i was still was writing and editing that comment, busy day today.
I am in awe because of this line:
“My philosophy is just that “if you understand it, you won’t need to memorize it”
This is not my philosophy as it is observation of reality.
One of my weaknesses is my memory and in a plan i may forget what step i am on. But if you really understand it you can deduct what step your on and the logical next. Its somewhat of a life hack to get things done.
When i am online on a public facing website i am usually from a somewhere USA… In context of your question you probably mean what school system, i am honestly most familiar with those where from central Europe.
I had good people as teachers but the systems they where supposed to use like _focus on grades _ didn’t work for me. I learn because i really want to know not to win or be perceived as successful.
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CONTINUED From SaphiraGrace’ response to @Focal@pawb.social below…world and society as a whole - you do not possess the required data or facts or lived experience to assign intent or reason to why a student doesn’t comply with a task or demand. You just don’t. And its not yours to assume.
Please, I know this is long. I am quite aware. (Yes, I will have a TLDR for reference here in a second) but it is fully necessary in response to such vapid ignorance and harmful assumption when it is so clear that you know very little about autism from a lived experience perspective. I get it. I’m not mad at you - just disappointed at how rampant such a take is in our society. So rampant that I have dedicated the rest of my life to educating those like yourself about what being autistic and neurodivergent really is like - and I will likely be doing such until I die.
Please find autistic voices to listen to. Autistic experiences to widen your understandably neurotypically-limited perspective. We need better understanding. We need better levels of empathy and care than we are currently receiving. We need better inclusion in society - not just surface-level, but inclusion that gives us a sense of truly belonging. We need those who don’t process and experience life the way we do to still give us a chance at living an authentic life without such a steep risk of burnout and stress that too often culminates in losing our lives to it.
If you would like some resources to learn more, please, DM me (this goes for anyone who has read through this mammoth of a post thus far and are also intrigued to know more). I have bookoos of them that I have collected and acquired through about half a decade or more of research and self-introspection. I am proverbial fount of information and I do not wish to keep all my knowledge and insight to myself - for having an outlet to share it is one of my few ways to safeguard myself from my own burnout and potential demise.
OK HERE WE GO! The TLDR:
From the top:
- Autism is a spectrum, not a gradient.
- Terms like “mild,” “moderate,” or “severe” autism are harmful and inaccurate.
- Language matters; it affects how autistic individuals are perceived and accommodated.
Spectrum vs. Gradient:
- Autism spectrum: A full color wheel with varying traits.
- Example: Hyper-verbal vs. nonverbal traits represented as different colors.
- Importance of understanding autism’s complexity and varied presentations.
Masking:
- Masking: Concealing autistic traits to appear neurotypical.
- Masking does not lessen the impact of being autistic.
- Examples of masking: concealing stimming behaviors due to external pressures.
Utilize a Better Approach to Educating:
- Do not assign reasons or intent without asking autistic individuals.
- Importance of directly communicating with autistic students to understand their actions.
- Examples of how assumptions can lead to misunderstandings and inadequate support.
Personal Experience:
- Autistic individuals may not know or articulate their needs due to lack of self-awareness or language.
- Importance of educators’ flexibility and willingness to accommodate neurodivergent students.
- Personal anecdotes to illustrate the challenges and needs of autistic individuals.
Call to Action:
- Greater understanding, empathy, and true inclusion are needed in society.
- Encouragement to learn from autistic voices and lived experiences.
- Offer to provide resources for those interested in learning more about autism.
I always viewed the difference as intent and not mutually exclusive. reason explains your thought process, actions, and events. Excuse are reasons presented in a manor meant to shift responsibility.
Sounds like a rigged game: if someone wants to feel like the blame is being shifted.
What good is blame anyway if you want to fix the problem in the first place? I’ll never get it. It feels primally cathartic to blame a person, but it fixes the issues to find the reason.
Excuse are reasons presented in a manor
A country manor? Or ‘manor’ as in a Southern England English idiom for ‘house’?
Excuse are reasons presented in a manor
A country manor? Or ‘manor’ as in a Southern England English idiom for ‘house’?
An excuse removes responsibility.
A reason does not.
“You are excused” means you no longer are responsible for the outcome.
“I literally wasn’t present when it happened, so I’m not responsible for the outcome” < excuse, which can be valid
“I knew what was going to happen, here is why I did it for a good reason” < reason
Example: three kids are present, 2 are graffiti’ing the back of a house
When caught, 1 kid says “I was trying to stop them, they wouldn’t listen”. This is an excuse, they’re claiming they aren’t at fault and not responsible for the graffiti.
Another says “the home owner deserved it, he’s an asshole”, this is a reason as they are clearly not avoiding responsibility.
When you try and use an excuse to get out of something thar you clearly are responsible for, that’s when you will get served the “I dont want an excuse” line.
Not only was this well explained, but the short segments are great for my ADHD-phobia of large blocks of text
Ohhh damn that’s why I read the whole thing. I usually scroll past walls of text in the comments.
When you try and use an excuse to get out of something thar you clearly are responsible for, that’s when you will get served the “I dont want an excuse” line.
Or when they don’t really want an explanation and just want you to admit fault and ask for forgiveness.
I mean it boils down to “you better have a super good reason for this, cuz I expect you to take responsibility either way”
Nah, more often than not they don’t give a flying fuck about the reason when they say that.
Thats pretty reductive, mate.
Sure. And cynical. Yet true 99% of the time.
So, preface - not neurotypical, but I dont really struggle with this sort of thing personally. At least I think so lol.
An excuse is a reason. One dictionary definition is “a reason that you give to explain why you did something wrong.” When you have done something wrong, people don’t usually want the reasons. They want contrition, or help resolving it. Also note another dictionary definition - “a false reason that you give to explain why you do something.” There is a perception that any reason given after doing something wrong may well be false, intended to deflect blame rather than genuinely explain. In general, there are times when it is appropriate to explain, and times when it is not.
It’s frustrating that someone would directly ask why you did something while not wanting an answer, but when people are stressed or frustrated - i.e. when something has gone wrong - they do sometimes just lash out with questions designed to accuse rather than to elicit an actual answer. The question: “why did you do it this way”, from someone who is angry, might really mean: “I’m angry with you because I can’t fathom what reason you could possibly have for doing it this way, now that it has gone wrong.” The solution isn’t to provide that answer, it’s to resolve whatever the problem is and let them calm down. There may come a point when explaining the reason is appropriate later.
Outside the specific context of the question - in general, if something bad happens as a result of your actions, explaining them isn’t the first thing you should do. First apologise, then try to resolve whatever the problem is. You can talk reasons later, it definitely can be helpful to understand how things went wrong… But only if you have the intention of trying to avoid it in the future. If you come off as trying to deflect blame… That’s going to be perceived as an excuse. Accept the blame first, and your reasons will be more likely accepted as an attempt to avoid future problems.
I think some people just aren’t looking for a answer, they just want to bitch.
This is most often when there’s nothing wrong with the way you’ve done something, it’s just not the way they do it.
They practice this crap in the mirror to make themselves sound cool and be a bully.
I think the implication is that a reason is out of your control, while an excuse is of your own doing.
Like say you slept in and were late for work. If you slept in because of a medical condition or the power went out and your alarm didn’t go off, it’s a reason. If you slept in because you stayed up too late or forgot to set your alarm, it’s an excuse.
Not that the two terms aren’t interchangable in a lot of cases.
I think a reason involves reasoning. If I’m interrogating someone about a situation like this, I want to know the why of the actions. People who say “stop giving me excuses” are just assholes, and didn’t want a reason anyway.
I think people who are always late and always giving excuses for lateness are the assholes. Sort yourself out and turn up on time. Unless there’s a reason of course, but I can’t think of a good reason to be consistently late.
Considering the person in the tweet posing the initial question is neurodivergent, and time blindness is a symptom of many forms of neurodivergence, I feel like being late is a poor example.
I’m late because my condition fundamentally does not allow me to process the passage of time properly.
For most people that would sound like an excuse. I understand that.
I set multiple alarms, not just to wake up, but I have an alarm to tell me I need to get in the shower, out of the shower, an alarm that tells me if I’m not currently eating breakfast I need to skip breakfast or I’ll be late, an alarm that tells me to leave the house, and another alarm to actually leave the house regardless of if I can’t find my keys, go now or you’ll be late, call a locksmith later (because you left them in the laundry sink you idiot, that’s why the dirty towels are at the front door somehow)
I’ve managed to avoid being late by being disgustingly early to everything instead.
So when I am late, I’m already feeling like the worst possible human there is, how am I so completely useless?
And “I somehow lost track of time despite having a countdown timer audibly playing in my headphones from the moment I woke up to the moment I got here” is not a valid reason in the eyes of people who have never experienced time blindness, so they pile up more shame on top of my guilt.
My partner and I were standing in the kitchen planning meals and I asked him what day a certain event was because I could have sworn it was “a Monday 20-something” he tells me it’s “Saturday November 23rd” he said, “oh that’s next month” I replied, I went to write it in my diary, but it was already written in my diary.
Later I got ready for bed, I set my alarm nice and early for the big day, and woke up today on the Monday 28th of October, started getting ready and asked my partner why he was sleeping in and he says “sleeping in for what? What are we doing so early today?” to which I reply “the event! …wait … That’s in November, why did I think it was today?” and went back to bed.
I got home from work this afternoon, put my bag down and suddenly and immediately started panicking “oh fuck, I forgot to attend that event today!” and I pull out my phone to text someone and remember it’s not until November.
I’m going to keep doing this until the 23rd of November, when I’m inevitably going to have somehow forgotten the event entirely and my partner will wake me up asking if I’m ready to go and I’ll say “go where? … Wait there’s some important I’m doing, don’t tell me”
I guess my personal definition of excuse vs reason. An excuse is an attempt to get out of the consequences of what happened, a reason is an exploration of the factors that lead up to the issue, and does not absolve me of responsibility or accountability.
To avoid being late in the future, I have to understand the reason I was late, otherwise how can I fix a problem I don’t understand.
In my case the root problem is unfixable, I can only ever work to mitigate the impact, and that’s never going to work 100% of the time. So it’s tricky because it’s not an excuse, I know I’m making things harder for other people with my behaviour and I don’t expect to face zero consequences for my actions, but I can’t exactly fix it or guarantee it won’t happen again because I know it will, so I’m not going to make false promises about doing better, I’m already doing the best I know how, trying to guilt me does nothing, I’m already at max capacity guilt because I don’t know how else to address this problem and it feels like my fault.
I feel this in my soul. I set up to four alarms (for weekday mornings.) The first alarm is in case I wake up feeling sick (since I’d need to tell work at least 2 hours in advance.) The next is to wake me in case I went back to sleep after the first alarm. Then I have a third alarm, which is my “last chance to shower” alarm. Finally, the fourth alarm is for when it’s time to actually go out the door.
Ideally, I turn them all off before they start, because I’m having a good morning and manage to be on top of everything. But I can’t count on that happening every day and, like you, I feel absolutely crushed and useless if I fail to arrive somewhere on time.
Now, keeping track of time when at work is a whole ‘nother beast. We don’t even have clocks on our walls…
That sounds reasonable. Why would I have an issue with this person being late? I wouldn’t. It’s a great example of having a reason.
But I’m not psychic, nor am I a doctor of any kind, so if you expect me to make allowances without telling me what allowances you need then unfortunately you’re out of luck.
If you expect me to make allowances for people incase they’re ND then also you’re out of luck. I’m going to ask you why you’re late, I’m going to react to what you told me - anything you haven’t told me is unknown.
That some people want to paint me as unreasonable because I want people to be on time, unless they have a good reason not to be, is naive and immature.
If I’m not concerned with your reasoning, I’m not going to ask, then tell you to stop making excuses. If you don’t want a reason, fine. That’s the whole point, the people who say “why were you late?” then dismiss everything as excuses, not answers to the question just asked. If you don’t want to know, fine, don’t ask, move on.
Sort yourself out and turn up on time. Unless there’s a reason of course, but I can’t think of a good reason to be consistently late.
The reason why I would be late for you is that you’re thoroughly unpleasant and I don’t want to be around you. I hope you find that a ‘good reason’.
That’s how friendship works and I’m fine with it. Not everyone has to be friends.
If you work for me though, you work on the principle that you will always do your best effort to turn up on time - and if you can’t even manage that then I’m not interested in you being part of my team and so we’ll be parting ways. This kind of thing tends to be surfaced during the interview stage and if it didn’t it’d surface in the first few months and so one of us would choose to terminate the contract. That’s also fine; you don’t have to like the people you work with and you don’t have to work with people you don’t like.
I see no problems with the fact that our values are different.
It sounds like you wont listen to reason, if you dont understand or can’t experience a situation yourself.
That means you can only work with or bw friends with people like you. That’s a very small window of tolerance.
I think you’re wrong.
I specifically gave an example of when I would listen to reason.
Being late because you can’t be fucked to get out of bed is a laziness problem, and someone trying to make it my problem (by being late) is inconsiderate at best. Not interested.
Being late because of an event outside of your ability to predict or control is reasonable.
If you can’t tell the difference then, again, that’s your problem and you’re right I don’t want to work with or be friends with you.
It’s not just you, neurotypicals on the receiving end of that hate it too. Everyone gets told that garbage line once in a while. It’s always said by someone on a power trip, they’re trying to put you down into a place beneath them
It’s an excuse when they’re mad and a reason when they’re not
Or if it’s a shit reason.
Note: all reasons are shit reasons if the person is mad at you.
As a child this made me just reply “I don’t know” to those types of questions, since the result was always the same.
That’s a common reply of children. Usually they learn to not reply like that.
It’s interesting that in this thread people are mostly assuming the person saying that’s “an excuse” is being unreasonable, just because the person posting is ND.
If the OP is persistently late for work and they often give shit “excuses” like “the bus was late” then I would react similarly to what the OP described. It’s an excuse, not a reason, because you can solve it but have chosen not to: for instance you could leave earlier to ensure that even if the bus is late, you’re still on time.
I never get the train that gets me somewhere “on time” I always get the train that gets me there early, because I find it important enough to be punctual that I don’t make excuses.
That’s a common reply of children. Usually they learn to not reply like that.
That doesn’t make it wrong. The people enforcing rules that explanations aren’t allowed might be wrong. Interesting that you do not seem to consider that.
If the OP is persistently late for work and they often give shit “excuses” like “the bus was late” then I would react similarly to what the OP described. It’s an excuse, not a reason, because you can solve it but have chosen not to
I teach students who live in villages with one bus an hour. If one bus does not run, they will be late. They didn’t ‘choose not to’ fix this situation. Their parents are at work, they cannot afford a taxi, and they cannot invent a bus or wings.
I think there’s a nuance here that’s difficult for me to express. Explanations aren’t wrong - not having a good reason to break the rules is wrong. The nuance is: what makes a good reason?
Your situation isn’t a contradiction or counter to what I said. You have a different perception of persistent. If they were late for school every day because the bus never ran then you would presumably tell them to get the earlier bus so that they didn’t miss an hour of school every day? Or if that was impossible you would discuss it an agree different expectations. This alters the definition of “late”. You wouldn’t simply accept that they are late every day - that would be irresponsible and make you a poor teacher.
That’s a common reply of children. Usually they learn to not reply like that.
The thing is that I used to not give those replies as a child, but it was always an impossible scenario for me, so I gave up.
If the OP is persistently late for work and they often give shit “excuses” like “the bus was late” then I would react similarly to what the OP described. It’s an excuse, not a reason, because you can solve it but have chosen not to: for instance you could leave earlier to ensure that even if the bus is late, you’re still on time.
Lot of assumptions you are making there, and I understand it but if you’re not ND it might be hard for you to understand just how stupid these situations feel, especially when they’re not regarding recurring problems.
I do encounter these situations a lot less now that I’m an adult, and it’s less socially acceptable to just be an absolute cunt to me for no reason though.
I’m curious what you mean by ND. Surely there are a whole host of different types of divergence many of which will have no impact on this?
I am NT (afaik) but I find some things completely incomprehensible to me.
There’s different types but a lot of them have very similar lived experiences, and they also tend to coincide with each other (people with ADHD often also have autism, OCD seems to coincide there too , and so on.)
I don’t have enough concrete information in the area to 100% say, but from my personal lived experience, as well as from the research I am aware of, there is a major overlap and common themes in our lived experiences.
Thanks, appreciate the insight.
If you look at this poster’s other posts, they’re quite unpleasant.
Sort yourself out and turn up on time. Unless there’s a reason of course, but I can’t think of a good reason to be consistently late.
I’m a teacher, and I hate teachers who just assume everyone can magically not be late, as if personal circumstances don’t exist.
It’s a reply of children because adults want to be angry with them, not find out why they did something, so people like you tell them to “just be responsible” etc without ever listening or offering support.
So if an adult wants to yell at you, you say “i dont know” and let the angry windbag rant and rave. From the kid’s POV the adult/teacher don’t care about the reason (y’all usually don’t) you just want to have your ego bruised by a whole ass child dealing with whole ass life not about you being late.
But “i dont know” is easier than “mom has a new boyfriend who keeps me up all night and i sleep late” you still probably wouldn’t listen or would then tell the child how they should handle the neglect of their education by their parents themselves, rather than show empathy and understanding.
Because it’s about them listening to you, not about them being tiny people with no emotional regulation or rights trying to navigate a world where they are treated like little adults with zero power to escape abusive situations in school or at home of their own power, unlike you an adult who isnt the property of your parents.
But yeah they’re just stupid little twerps looking to pull one over on you, right? They dont have complex lives outside of their time with you, they spend all day making sure how to make you feel disrespected by showing up late!
And that is why you get “i dont know”.
Excuses are “this is why I’m not at fault” and places the blame on someone or something else (including a circumstance). A reason is “this is why it happened” without trying to self-justify. A lot times reasons come across as excuses because the person has not taken responsibility for what they’ve done.
If a reason doesn’t come with ownership of fault, it’s an excuse.
Edit: see comment below about fault and responsibility
but an admission of fault for something that wasn’t your fault is also bad
I think I should choose my words more carefully now that you say that. There is a difference between fault and responsibility, and it’s really more a matter of taking responsibility for things that are your responsibility.
So let’s say I leave home in a reasonable time to meet someone. However there are a series of car crashes on the way that cause traffic to back up. The accidents did not yet occur when I left my home, so I could not have accounted for them. My lateness is not my fault, because I did not cause the situation nor could I change or avoid it, but it is my responsibility to my (friend, date, boss, whoever) to call them and let them know my new estimated time of arrival. If I don’t try to let them know, they have every right to be angry with my for showing up an hour late, even though the lateness is not caused by my action or inaction.
In reply to the meme: Anyone who asks why and then cuts off the person they asked immediately assumed that ANY response would be an excuse, since they didn’t listen to it.
They just want to be angry. They don’t care about anything else, and anything anyone says is irrelevant.
No, there’s one reason that they wouldn’t consider an excuse, and it’s what they expected you to say: “I’m a good for nothing stupid head”. That’s what they want to hear. They’re mad because you didn’t say it.
If you ask my why and then go on about how you dont want excuses, the convo is over.
If they ask for an explanation and complain about being given an excuse, then they don’t want to hear the series of events which occurred. They want to hear which of your character flaws is responsible and that you’re ashamed of that flaw.
Source: drag speaks fluent neurotypical
