Let the ridicule of anti-indigenous settlerism commence.
Identifying with colonizers is cringe. We need to platform more communists from the global south in these modern times.
couldn’t agree more
Definitely, that’s why I love Luna Oi so much
Emerican is pretty cool too. He’s currently travelling around the US in a van, working with organizers in person (last I checked).
This is gonna rile up some haters.
We’re kinda overdue for a patsoc purge IMO. I just got a comment from saddamhussein24 defending Israeli “workers” colonizing Palestine.
Check my post history, they are defending working with anti-abortion conservatives in the USA.
Inb4 “actually this is good because Stalin blah blah most workers arent wOkE etc etc”
Colonial mindset too high
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I’m sorry but bringing up Kruschev and Stalin as comparison is too funny
Here’s saddamhusseins comment:
Israeli workers dont want to “keep the palestinian land” unless misguided by the israeli bourgeoisie through chauvinism, but its not in their interests. This is the problem with this “settler” bs, it often fails to define the class charachter of things, just an abstract notion of “land”.
You agree with that comment?
Lmao land is a means of production. Someone’s social relationship to land can massively impact their class character. How is gaining land something people want only if the bourgeoisie “misguides” them? Seems idealist. Gaining land is in anyone’s material interests.
Yep, I used the term “land”, and saddam called the term “unmarxist” lol.
I hate to see it
That is exactly my point. Land is a means of production, which is by definition owned by bourgeoisie. Israeli workers dont own any land, thats why they are workers. Their higher living standard is only because israeli bourgeoisie chose to give them value extracted from palestinian workers, as a way to bribe them into supporting colonialism and genocide, they are the labor aristocracy.
However, this cant last forever, due to falling rate of profit. Once surplus value from colonized palestinians isnt enough to sustain israeli capitalism, they will start extracting value from israeli workers too, thus getting them out of the labor aristocracy. At that point israeli workers will become revolutionary, just like palestinian workers are now.
For this reason, it is in the LONG term interest of israeli workers to support palestinians rising up against israeli colonialism, overthrowing them and establishing a socialist Palestine. The bribing of the labor aristocracy is only in their interests SHORT term, due to the falling rate of profit as explained above. Thus, all workers have the same interests LONG term, both colonized and colonizer, the socialist revolution and establishment of DotP.
The labor aristocracys selfish proimperialist interests can only last a certain time due to falling rate of profit, and is thus only a SHORT term interest, with the LONG term interest being socialism. This is my point, basic marxism leninism.
Land is a means of production, which is by definition owned by bourgeoisie. Israeli workers dont own any land, thats why they are workers.
If workers aquire land through colonial means they could change classes into the bourgeoisie, petty bourgeoisie, or a kind of yeoman. In two of these cases they may very well not be huate bourgeoisie but overall I think your point here stands. Land acquisition can alter class character. As im sure you are aware, this is part of why settlers are not proletarian.
Their higher living standard is only because israeli bourgeoisie chose to give them value extracted from palestinian workers, as a way to bribe them into supporting colonialism and genocide, they are the labor aristocracy.
Maybe im being nitpicky here, but I contest the idea that this is a mere choice of the bourgeoisie. I’d say its closer to a natural law of capital. If the bourgeoisie failed to make this choice, the may well lose leverage over the colonized and laboring masses, and thus lose their class position. Labor aristocracy is a fundamental part of imperialism, not a mere decision to add icing to the cake or some unique mass bribe scheme. Its a major organ that keeps imperialism alive.
Once surplus value from colonized palestinians isnt enough to sustain israeli capitalism, they will start extracting value from israeli workers too, thus getting them out of the labor aristocracy.
This is simply false. If they cant get surplus from Palestine, they will get it from Syria or Lebanon. Or Bangladesh, India, Indonesia etc etc. Or, they just evict more Palestinians. This idea that immediately the huate bourgeoisie would liquidate their occupation force IMO demonstrates a lack of understanding how these classes form and function together. Furthermore, there would have to be surplus value to extract. There would have to be a monumental reshaping of the global economy in order to facilitate exploitation of the current labor aristocracy to make up for even a fraction of the falling rate of profit. It needs, again, to be emphasized that a drop in quality of life for the labor aristocracy (especially as the actual global proletariat largely is also experiencing lowered quality of life) has little consequence toward changing its class character. Its like if some bourgeoisie lad lost 3 out of 80 employees and people decided this was a fundamental shift in their class character.
The bribing of the labor aristocracy is only in their interests SHORT term, due to the falling rate of profit as explained above. Thus, all workers have the same interests LONG term, both colonized and colonizer, the socialist revolution and establishment of DotP.
I disagree fundamentally with your notions of the labor aristocracy having the same interests as any other worker, especially explicitly colonized workers. Lenin himself was clear that rich countries would have to be ready and willing to endure a major downturn in quality of life in the wake of revolution because it would have to put an end to imperial spoils. The labor aristocracy’s interests are maintaining its quality of life, especially in comparison to the world’s working masses. Sakai also closes Settlers with an entire chapter on Strategic vs Tactical interests that is extremely relevant to this and I recommend you read it, as it states why colonized people have different strategic interests from settlers, but occasionally have similar tactical interests.
The labor aristocracys selfish proimperialist interests can only last a certain time due to falling rate of profit, and is thus only a SHORT term interest, with the LONG term interest being socialism.
I might again be simply nitpicking, but it is not mere selfishness anymore than the bourgeoisie’s enforcement of capitalism is mere greed. There certainly are dialectics at play that create moments of qualitative change, and certainly pressure will be put on the labor aristocracy before it is directly put onto the huate bourgeoisie, but this doesn’t make a compelling case that socialism will come about from these specific pressures and contradictions. Socialism is the result of a process of history that unfolds from contradictions embodied in the global proletariat, not the petite bourgeoisie, the global house slaves (to be crass), or the yeoman settlers of settler colonial empires.
Also im not sure how you can really say its actually short term. Wage earners, yeoman, and bourgeoisie settlers alike have held land stolen from Indigenous people for generations, passing it down to their children or selling it to other settlers while Indigenous people are held in open air prisons. Beyond that, capitalism can reset itself through imperialist wars that the labor aristocracy and settlers have routinely supported.
This is my point, basic marxism leninism.
Maybe a bit too basic tho?
Thus, all workers have the same interests LONG term, both colonized and colonizer, the socialist revolution and establishment of DotP.
#NotAllColonizers
Why is it so hard for you patsocs to accept that the garrison of settler troops, even if they are poor, derive real material benefits from imperialism? Hell, the city that I used to live in was built on land stolen from indigenous americans. Its suburbs now. The indians? Forced onto reservations.
LONG term interest of israeli workers to support palestinians
The palestinians are demanding their land back. That’s their primary demand, for israeli occupiers to leave. They don’t want “solidarity” with the colonizers who are and historically have been killing them. Who the fuck are you to tell them “israeli workers have a right to that land”?
Muad, I am confused
Do you want settlers to join indigenous nations? You don’t want anything with settlers to remain, so what do you want to do with them? Do you want them dead? I have not seen you state any if your ideas for this.
Also why do you hate poor people for just existing?
They are at the mercy of the bourgeoisie forced to settle against their wills, that can’t be refuted. They get little in return and naturally would want to revolt. But you say they CANT and thus are inheritant allies to the bourgeoisie no matter what. This doesn’t make sense could you explain? But you say even sovereignty in socialism wouldn’t be enough if the settlers and Indigenous peoples coexisted. Why? Isn’t stopping the Imperialist, stopping the genocide? Now if you are so set on that socialism can’t bring soveirgnty what do you think if Kaliningrad or Tibet? This seems to have escaped the ideas of Marx, at least your proposal of the settler state. Marx was alive when when the US was still grabbing land, you don’t think he would of thought to point out the settling? Or Lenin during the Spanish American war?
Why do you live so heavily on one book that proclaims anything against it settler apologia? We know barely anything about the author, why the dogmatic view?
Muad, you say Maupin is fascist but you haven’t put any clips of him announcing fascistic remarks, and if this is true I would really like to see for my own eyes. That’s a huge claim to make with little evidence and we can’t just say that about anyone, especially MLs, otherwise it’s like you are making a boogie man.
Also nice use of “the indians”
Muad, when did i ever deny that the labor aristocracy derive benefits from colonialism and imperialism? I literally said
“Their higher living standard is only because israeli bourgeoisie chose to give them value extracted from palestinian workers, as a way to bribe them into supporting colonialism and genocide, they are the labor aristocracy.”
All i said is that those benefits dont last forever due to the falling rate of profit, meaning that in the future a moment will arrive in which the labor aristocracy doesnt derive this benefit anymore. For this reason, the real long term interest of this labor aristocracy is to stand with the opressed against the bourgeoisie bribing them, since in the long term the bourgeoisie will screw them too, just like they did to the colonized. Thats all i said.
Muad, where did i ever say that “israeli workers have a right to that land”? Please show me where.
But this is beyond the point. What do you have against me Muad? This comment wasnt even a response to you, yet you keep stalking my comments. Are you ok? Do you want a conflict in here that badly? Why not just move on, accepting our disagreements? Why do keep insisting on banning people who have done nothing to you and stand for what you stand? Why do you want to destroy a great educational space? Please relax, life goes on. In a few months you wont even remember about this stupid drama. Dont kill the great space and community we have here, its not worth it.
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if the israelli workers are getting anything from the colonization of palestine, they will not after the colonisation is complete
The colonization of these settler colonies you are talking about has never been completed. To assert so is erasure of Indigenous people. Furthermore, when colonial spoils slow down there certainly is qualitative change, but to say that because there is no Homestead Act of 2023 on the horizon spells the end of colonial spoils is being willfully ignorant of how colonialism and imperialism function. Hell, Israel is occupying more than just Palestine even right now and the US extracts rent from practically every human civilization. Capitalism isnt sustainabile, but that doesn’t mean it cant find new places to super exploit, or it cant drum up a new round of violence directed toward the colonized.
Just like nowadays on capitalistic post colonies, like the US, Canadá, Brasil, and other examples of capitalistic ex colonies, the worker classes are still being explored even when they are the “settler” because they dont own no means of production, the stolen land?
Exploitation does not simply purify counter revolutionary tendencies that exist within a portion of the working class due to there better global class position. Also comparing the Canadian and US working class to Brazil is disingenuous if not laughable. Also, a declining state doesn’t always signify exploitation either. Workers in the global north are basically not exploited of their surplus value in any way comparable to the global south.
it does not take a genious to see that the burgeoise giving stolen land to israellis is just burgeoise apeasing
You say it’s merely appeasement as if workers are being drugged into some kind of colonial stupor. I say it fundamentally impacts their position in a global class system.
🤮
Did you ask them to blink twice to signal if they were in danger?
Only colonizers will be mad about this
Why thank you for boosting it!
o7
🇺🇸 💥 🔫
Ultimate test of whether you’re a Patsoc or not. Are you excited for July 4?
No. It’s obnoxious. But I get holiday pay today. So that’s cool.
I’m only excited if we get to burn the flag
Only excited because one of these July 4 holidays will be the last one the empire celebrates.
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A lot of the founding fathers were invested in land speculation companies (kinda similar to Blackrock but with less restrictions). And one of their big complaints to the crown was that they weren’t allowed to go on extermination campaigns (like the Beaver Wars) whenever they pleased in order to pressure tribes into selling. The british govt drew a hard line at the Appalachians.
Then after the Revolution, one of George Washington’s first acts in office was to start the Northwest Indian War. History books emphasize the taxation aspect because it’s more sympathetic, but don’t really draw the arrow on the chart connecting the precedents for the Revolutionary War with events like the Trail of Tears and Tecumseh’s war. In the schoolbooks those things just sorta happened…for reasons.
Yea I mean, the class politics and slavery certainly didn’t change. Neither did indentured servitude
Patsocs be like:
I hope he will grow out of it in a few years, he is still young enough to have a chance to drop the PatShit before it gets too too ingrained. But who knows shrug…
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LGTM!
On here white MLs from US is against Patsoc when white MLs from mostly European countries are in favour of Patsocs, hummm I wonder why??? There are Patsocs like Haz who is arab. This is crazy.
Please don’t turn this into another “anti-tankie” anticommunist sub. Otherwise i will go away.
We are tankies here, why would we not ban settler-colonialists?
Any communist who doesn’t take a stand against settler-colonialism, is no communist, or at the very least has a lot of reading to do.
