- cross-posted to:
- politics@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- politics@beehaw.org
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Most likely the DNC would have sabotaged him like Labour sabotaged Jeremy Corvin
Yeah that’s the subtext of the headline. Or should be if it isn’t the author’s intent. This shouldn’t be understood as an endorsement of social liberalism, but as a denunciation of the system as a way of obtaining good outcomes.
Yes but then the DNC would not be able to please their donor class. Which is far more important than winning.
He should found a new party based on his moral and ethical values. First, take over Vermont government, after that let’s see. He’s the only politician I know whou could pull this one in the American scene. He’s already independent and representing much more than Vermont.
I’m down, but he’s just so old. With his only heir apparent being AOC. People don’t like her nearly as much despite basically identical policy proposals. I wonder why?
I’ve said this before but at this point I think our only hope is the destruction of the Republican party so Democrats are the new conservatives. This way a progressive party could arise.
Or get rid of first past the post voting and the electoral college. But that seems harder somehow.
Or, honestly, this is the end and there is no hope left.
No, Democratic Party would throw an election rather than move an inch to the left.
The most relevant paragraph imo
Bernie’s coalition was filled with the exact type of voters who are now flocking to Donald Trump: Working class voters of all races, young people, and, critically, the much-derided bros. The top contributors to Bernie’s campaign often held jobs at places like Amazon and Walmart. The unions loved him. And— never forget — he earned the coveted Joe Rogan endorsement that Trump also received the day before the election this year. It turns out, the Bernie-to-Trump pipeline is real! While that has always been used as an epithet to smear Bernie and his movement, with the implication that social democracy is just a cover for or gateway drug to right wing authoritarianism, the truth is that this pipeline speaks to the power and appeal of Bernie’s vision as an effective antidote to Trumpism. When these voters had a choice between Trump and Bernie, they chose Bernie. For many of them now that the choice is between Trump and the dried out husk of neoliberalism, they’re going Trump.
The failure that will forever define Bernie’s political legacy will be not turning the energy that was behind him in 2020 into a more permanent movement. He just gave the phone bank and email lists to the Dems and fell in line.
…the progressive movement held our collective noses and reacted to an existential crisis for the preservation of american democracy in the face of imminent fascism, and the coalition succeeded at that goal for a short while, but only just…
It’s not a failure, he made a choice. In hindsight we see it as the wrong choice, but we don’t know what the alternative is. We will never know if it was right or wrong, failure or success.
Nothing is ever so simple.
It’s a failure unless his goal was for his movement to fizzle out and flounder.
He’s right. In a declining capitalist state like the current US, workers want change. In the absence of a genuine working class party that correctly blames capitalism and the capitalist class for a revolution, you get a “radical” capitalist-funded party that at least points the blame at someone — marginalized people.
The dems only offer to preserve the status quo, and no one fucking wants the status quo.
Get organized. Liberal democracies in the imperial core historically always slide to fascism.
While it’s good to hear him say it now, I’m very annoyed that he didn’t attempt to hold Dem feet to the fire while they were in an election, and could have potentially extracted concessions. AFAIK he’s also still not calling the Palestinian genocide a genocide.
This is not to take away from the message that the democratic party must be destroyed and replaced with a working class (IE: Communist) party, which is correct, but merely to point out that Bernie himself cannot be trusted to lead it.
Brother is hurtling towards 90. I wouldn’t trust him to lead a drum circle.
…this is the crux of it: bernie’s time was eight years ago, and even though i absolutely respect his lucid resolve, the movement needs fresh figureheads to sustain its momentum…
It’s worth noting that “fascism” specifically is a eurocentric — or even more specifically a 20th century-centric — ideology. You could argue the US has always been “fascist”, just that the fascism has been focused on people outside it — the countries it constantly wages wars on. Still a good way to describe the direction declining capitalist states are headed to, I guess.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, the violent immune system employed by the Capitalist class. A great work on fascism is Blackshirts and Reds. I can provide a longer Marxism intro reading list if you’d like, but Blackshirts is a great start.
You could argue the US has always been “fascist”, just that the fascism has been focused on people outside it
Hitler was inspired on how to treat the Jews, Romani, disabled, and queers, based on how we treated Native Americans and Black Americans. He saw the country doing so well in the world stage excluding millions from the same status and privilege as the normalized default, and thought it would work for Germany and Europe, by force.
America was founded by rich white oligarchs, it was never going to support anything good without a lot of people letting go unless they died.
EDIT: Sorry if you get double pinged, server had a hiccup as I was posting.
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Any example at hand of these liberal democracies that hystorically always slide to fascism? What does imperial core mean?
It’s not that liberal democracies always slide, specifically, it’s that Capitalist states always slide, and this is heightened by being in the Global North. Global North countries brutally explioit Global South countries via Imperialism, by relying on vastly under-paid labor and selling it in the Global North for higher prices.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, the violent immune system employed by the Capitalist class. A great work on fascism is Blackshirts and Reds. I can provide a longer Marxism intro reading list if you’d like, but Blackshirts is a great start.
I also recommend Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, and the famous Yellow Parenti Speech (a small excerpt here.
Primarily referring to Germany and Italy’s descent into fascism, and we’re currently seeing this happen in France, and now in the US. These countries only see a shift to the left with an external force, like Scandinavian states giving concessions to the working class when the nearby USSR posed the threat of a good example — and by extension, the threat of a working class revolution; of course, these concessions are gradually being taken away now.
Imperial core countries refers to colonizer countries that now control financial institutions like the IMF and World Bank, and depend on the continued exploitation of former colonies.
I specify liberal democracies in imperial core countries because we have seen limited successes for the left outside it. Like Allende coming to power in Chile (before being overthrown in a US-backed coup 2 years later), or now Lula and Claudia coming to power in Brazil and Mexico.
It’s an interesting ending to an otherwise fine comment. Bernie would slide the US towards liberal democracy, further from fascism
That’s not how Capitalism or fascism works. Capitalism is in constant decay, this decay leads to sharpening contradictions and fascism is deployed to protect Capitalist interests. Bernie would not end Capitalism, he may only slow it’s rate of descent, not stop it or reverse it. A great work on fascism is Blackshirts and Reds. I can provide a longer Marxism intro reading list if you’d like, but Blackshirts is a great start.
I know, no need to worry. My comment didn’t portray Bernie as some anticapitalist Jesus who can single-handedly force a revolution if that needed clarification
Reread your post and then really consider if that rhetoric would get >50% of the vote. It’s just more academic jibberish that falls flat outside coastal cities.
If this is how he felt the last year, he’s just as culpable as all of the other fucks who stayed home and didn’t vote. Fuck him and his Monday morning quarterbacking.
Agree
Bernie is a bastard, but I think it’s backwards thinking to blame voters rather than candidates. In a nominal democracy, it’s the job of the candidates to appeal to people to get votes. If there is any merit to this idea, we must conclude that the failure was the Harris campaign for not generating the confidence needed to vote for her – which is a very expected outcome when you’re running as reactionary a campaign as she did, calling the wall a “good idea” and so on.
Yep. From a systems analyst perspective, if there’s a problem with a couple people, it’s because they’re idiots. If a lot of people are having a problem, it’s a systems issue. In this case, the DNC and their shit messaging.
It’s like they hired an intern to do their marketing. They had a few funny clap backs on socials but they didn’t actually pivot to appeal to their target demographics. Fucking marketing 101.
Bernie can’t even garner the support of his own party, let alone the whole country. What are you guys on??
Not to mention the constant complaint about old people in politics while demanding more of this dinosaur?
No point in arguing with the Bernie Bros. It’s analogous to the MAGA cult at this point, the blind devotion. The only difference was Trump was able to win his primaries.
You think the party elects presidents? It doesn’t. People do, not politicians or parties. Your myopic view is what’s wrong with American elections, particularly Democrats: the idea that a party can win by virtue of appeal to the machine.
Bernie would have won in 2016 if HRC, Wasserman-Schultz, Donna Brasil, and the DNC hadn’t subverted his nomination. Again in 2020 if the DNC, Kamala, and the other candidates hadn’t dropped out in favor of Biden against Sanders.
The idea that any candidate is owed the presidency is fucked. So is your misunderstanding of the problem.
Bernie has a lot more energy than Trump and Biden combined, tbh.
He doesnt get support because he actually supports the working class. The fundamental thing us left folks have to accept is the democratic party simply isnt a left wing party. The left doesnt exist anymore in the US.
The parties are right wing conservatives called Democrats vs fascist psychopaths that call themselves Conservatives.
The reality simply is that the left is the right, and the right isnt even on the chart anymore. The actual left doesnt even have representation at this point.
Voters have to start getting a lot louder about this, in more obnoxious ways. Protesting has to happen, at minimum.
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The republican party and adjacent is mostly white nationalists, what would make you think that they would switch to voting for a Jewish person? He would have unfortunately lost.
Last I saw something like 55% of the populace looks like it voted for trump. In these crazy pants times I do not see bernie winning.
You are not intelligent or informed. 20% voted him in. 55% of the people who voted comes out to about 40% of the eligible voters nationally.
Going passed the disinformation in your first line. The people who vote are all that matter in a democracy. The others are basically dependent on their decision making regardless of if its because they can’t or won’t.
You are not intelligent or informed.
Going passed the disinformation in your first line.
lmao “It’s disinformation when someone calls me unintelligent and uninformed”. What happened, did you get tired of people telling you “that’s not what ad hominem means” and reach for the next rhetorical pejorative that crossed your mind?
Are you justifying insulting folks in online debate? Do you think insults are appropriate to debate? This is a much simpler issue that does not even get to logic or reason as is dead on arrival once one gets that crass.
I made no value judgements about insulting people (you don’t really need to specify “in online debate”), I was amused by the fact that you called it “disinformation” when it was just an insult and pointing out how silly it was.
yeah the disinformation was me trying to be clever in my reply. yes it was clearly and insult but since it was one that was based on the idea that the replier has some knowledge about my level of intelligence or how well informed I am (although the statement made ironically usually implies an and when phrased that way) I decided to call it disinformation. IE its my way of saying I am well educated, score well on tests, and have a much broader knowledge set than at least most people I know and I have worked in academia and live in a major metropolitan area (note if you limit it to academia my knowledge set becomes significantly more average)
It just makes you sound like a dweeb because “disinformation” is the dem-aligned version of “fake news”. I don’t have the slightest interest interest in your life story.
Why do different elections have different vote totals? Why is non-voting a significant bloc?
By design. Voting day is not a holiday and on a work day. Poor and working class are disenfranchised as a result. Fewer turn out because it’s not worth skipping work to stand in voting lines for hours.
Yes, why does this count vary from election to election?
55% of the vote, 20% of the population. Democrats stayed home.
…rather presumptuous that non-voters were democrats…
Compared to last election, several million were people who recently voted Democrat, yes.
55% of the electorate who care which is sorta more sad sounding.
Many who voted democrat in 2020 voted republican in 2024 because the billionaire class convinced them democrats caused inflation when democrats said they would tax billionaires.
Imagine what they would do to Bernie.
No, blue voters didn’t vote for Republicans. This is the second thread I see you posting this misinformation when it’s not remotely true outside of ONE demographic (Latino men). Left of centre democrats just didn’t show up to the polls (and they had no reason to, tbh).
You can look up the turnout numbers yourself, it’s literally headline news.
Edit: nvm, you seem to have it out for Bernie and think Biden/Harris was a fine ticket even when Dems were asking Biden to step down. I see your game.
Ok bro, and what about the DEMOCRATS that didn’t vote this time around??
How did Harris lose 10-15 million votes + Trump lost 2 million votes from 2020 if EVERY INDEPENDENT from 2020 voted Trump?
All anyone has regarding that is annecdotal. But in my experience many friends, family, coworkers who voted democrat in 2020 were convinced by republican ads that democrats were to blame for the inflation caused by Covid and price gouging.
We literally have the numbers, it’s called “counting the ballots”. What in the post-fact world?
This has to be a troll.
What no political theory does to a mfer
Trump offers a fake anti-establishment for people who are rightfully mad at the state. Only a working class party can direct that towards actual improvement.
Problem is obviously that a working class party wouldn’t be funded and backed by billionaire capitalists the way the duopoly is; that’s the point of liberal “democracies” — keeping capitalist parties in power.
This is why citizens united is basically the worst thing to come out of the millenia. So far. In the US at least.
I’m not impressed by this analysis.
- It doesn’t account for those who stayed home.
- It doesn’t account those who would have voted for Sanders instead of Trump if that option were actually available to them.
- Who did they think would be excited to volunteer to canvass for Democratic genocidaires? The DNC knowingly forfeited their ground game.
I really cannot see how anyone who would vote for trump would vote for sanders. its like apples and poison ivy. I don’t get those who don’t vote in a democracy either. I hate living in this eroding time period but way the hell glad to be living when democracy is considered the standard form of government. On tope of it we get to vote for the office, and get to vote for people to run for the office, and can sign signatures to get people on the ballot to run for office. I feel like people really don’t have a good sense of human history.
We literally saw it happen. It is well documented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanders–Trump_voters
Yeah I just don’t see it. They could not be more different to me. I have no idea what measure these people are using that they would flip between those two. so I get they exist but its so outside my perspective I can’t grok the individual who is like that. Its like flat earthers for me.
They couldn’t be more different to me, either, but what we think is irrelevant. Whatever their reasons, and no matter how alien those reasons might be to you and me, significant numbers of people really did flip.
