The Lemmygrad mod team has deliberated and decided that “patsocs”, especially those claiming the title such as Maupin, Hinckle, and Infrared, are hereby banned and are not welcome on lemmygrad.
This ban does not include those who feel some level of “patriotism” (for lack of a better word) for non-settler states ( namely those who have historically been victims of colonialism ).
Discussions surrounding the topics of settler-colonialism, and decolonization will always be allowed, as long as they don’t veer into the territory of defenses of colonialism, or affinity with colonizer over the colonized.
This includes:
- No apologia of settler-colonialism, or defenses of colonizer over the colonized. IE no defenses of Israelis over Palestinians, or European Settlers over indigenous americans fighting for the return of stolen lands.
- Please adhere to the Marxist-Leninist principle of Right of Nations to Self-Determination: especially holding true for indigeous peoples.
- Please adhere to the Marxist-Leninist principle of Proletarian Internationalism.
- No social-chauvinism, or opportunistic appeals to “conservative values” to win converts to socialism.
Here are some Marxist books / resources to learn more about Settler-Colonialism ( Audiobook torrents are linked as well )
- Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz - An indigenous people’s history of the US . audiobook
- Walter Rodney - How europe underdeveloped Africa . audiobook
- Zak Cope - Divided world divided class . audiobook
- Nick Estes - Red Nation Rising: From Bordertown Violence to Native Liberation
- J. Sakai - Settlers : The Mythology of the white proletariat . audiobook
- Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz - Not a nation of immigrants . audiobook
- Rashid Khalidi - The hundred years war on Palestine . audiobook
- Galeano - Open veins of latin america . audiobook
- Vincent Bevins - The Jakarta method . audiobook
- Fanon - The wretched of the earth . audiobook
- CLR James - The Black Jacobins . audiobook
Consider this a 4th of July present for any patsocs wanting to infiltrate Lemmygrad.
The wildest take from them was Zionist defense. I never knew, they believe things as silly as the Israeli working class is brainwashed into wanting free houses, they don’t really want them.
How patsocs must think it happens:
“Oh no, I’ve been duped into taking these 5 free acres of land! How did anyone brainwash me into doing this!! This is against my material interests!”
Things just haven’t been the same since apartheid ended in South Africa. It’s a good thing Israel is still doing one!
Nice, thx for this. archive.is link
Where are y’all running into these people? I see people who have opened discussion on how to possibly use existing American patriotism as a radicalization tool (I’m against it, but still understand why there are those that see some value in the idea). But I’m fortunate enough not to have run into any of these specifically terrible takes yet. Seriously, who the f are these “socialists” that support Israel?
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Like SpaceCowboy said, there were a bunch of these people around here the past few days. If you weren’t there and aren’t seeing anything now that’s because the mods have removed their comments and banned the worst offenders. Look at the modlog if you want to know the details.
This isn’t anything I’ve learned from any patsocs, this is just my own reasoning.
Are they not brainwashed?
I’ve never lived in Israel, but I live in America, I’m a Palestinian American. I’ve spent much of my life hating Americans, especially the middle class and upwards. But over time I’ve seen them as victims too. Yes, they are given special treats from the ruling class, and I’d rather be miserable and helplessly brainwashed with a meal than be the same without a meal. But they suffer. They are isolated from reality, from compassion and comraderie, all of their friends and family and jobs and passions are poisonous black holes. They are human beings made into tools of evil by ruthless conditioning that starts when they are born and ends when they are dead, from every direction and facet of their life. They are not born motherfuckers, they are made that way.
If I applied this thinking to Israelis, this is not a “Zionist defense.”
This is not to say that I think the average American or Israeli etc. etc. gets a pass partaking in imperialism, colonialism, fascism et. al., or that I like them or would want to hang out with them, or that I would hesitate much to pull the trigger when the war heats up. I think the common persons of these entities does more than their fair share spreading misery and destruction…but they have been brainwashed to, conditioned to.
If this is all regarding stuff user SaddamHussein said I think you all are interpreting them in terrible bad faith.
The CIA is probably going to use patsocs to infiltrate marxist groups and distract the public.
Marxist parties in the U.S should hopefully start banning them soon.
They made this with Anarchists and SocDems. And literally the Frankfurt and French School of Critical Thinking were manufactured with the same intention.
Why in particular would the CIA use patsocs specifically?
By turning socialism into a “conservative-friendly” movement, they defang it and take away its revolutionary potential, and easily steer it to social chauvinist directions. There’s a long history of them doing this with labor movements, and this happened in almost every country going back to Lenin’s day.
This is why most of Marxism’s greatest works are polemics against social chauvinists / reactionary “socialists” ( state and rev, the renegade kautsky, reform or revolution, critique of the gotha programme ).
Reread the post text above.
Unless you’re a Patsoc as in Socialism with Patrick Star characteristics. Then you’re a valued member of this forum.
Obsessed with this image
Someone needs to re-write Langston Hughes’s Lenin poem but make it patrick.
That’s revisionism according to Maoists
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I am an admin on Lemmygrad and I stand behind this message as well.
LG admin here to say patriotism for countries like Palestine, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. is acceptable as they were colonized by invaders and “patriotism” for those countries is solidarity with indigenous and local populations and their ways of life, however patriotism for countries like the US, the UK, most of Europe, etc. is not and can not be acceptable, because to be “patriotic” for them you must accept the rape, murder, and theft of the indigenous populations they invaded.
Until the US comes under a red banner, American Patriotism will only stand as an acceptance of the manifest destiny pillaging of Natives, the Jim Crow laws that still in certain ways exist today, the recent overturning of Abortion, etc. Marxism and patriotism for the US are like oil and water, and those who try to mix the two have no business here.
As soon as I learned the most basic beginnings of the Labor Aristocracy, a year or so ago, I competely dropped any semblance of patriotism dwelling inside of me. It made me think, why should our proletariat of the first world take priority over the third world’s exploitation which in most cases is more exploitative, more dangerous, and grants less individual and mass freedoms. And obviously the first world proletariat works hard and they absolutely must be freed, but not at the expense of the third world. Sweden is a decent example. They (not for covid) care about wages and benefits and good stuff like that, but ask them about helping Africa or something and you’ll hear nothing. USA is a great example of the unequal order of labor. The Oil Workers benefit from putting pipelines through indigenous lands. It’s cheapest to put the pipeline on a straight path, in some cases right thru indigenous land, thus needing less construction to reroute and profit is higher. Let’s say that the oil company(humor me for a sec) increases wages because of the massive profits. What we see is the indigenous community being subjugated and tosses to the side for the benefit of the 1st world proletariat. PatSoc can come off as correct when talking about wanting higher wages and better representation, but it’s like the Sex Trade in the fact that when you, the proletarian, have your interests lined up with that of your industry(the petrol industry for “protection of jobs against Climate initiatives” or pimps and johns for “legalization/legitimacy of sex work”) you will be tricked into supporting policies that do not help you but your boss or customers.
This is an honest question:
How quickly do you get banned? I wouldn’t like misinformed people getting kicked out straight away without giving them the chance to debate and learn.
So do they get banned straight away or do they get a chance (given that their statements aren’t completely mental)?
We don’t ban quickly, and if we do, its almost always temp bans, and usually with a warning, which we gave in this case too.
These patsoc threads lasted for days, even though we were warned about a few users in particular months ago.
Of course we’ll never ban anyone trying to learn about this topic.
I would also like to know this, and also if the bans in this particular case are permanent or temporary.
Well well well… 🤔
Nice. 😏
As a cracker settler… Nice.
This was a critically important move as the PatSocs here were using our communities to platform some of the most insidious rhetoric I’ve seen in a long time. I have no doubt that the recent surge in Patriotic Socialism is connected with Western propaganda bodies. It’s particularly telling that not only were they present arguments that would lead to the US becoming another “National Socialist”/openly fascist state, but that they were also heavily invested in the idea that Europeans were allowed to be Pat Socs because they weren’t on Turtle Island.
The fact that this also was coming to head just as the US is seeing Proud Boys activity increasing is also one of those “coincidences don’t exist” feelings.
Patsocs are the new Frankfurters. They are basically the same shit, just adjusted to current context.
This is the way to go. Thank you for making your position clear and for citing bibliography and sources as well <3
I gotta say all this feels like a big win
Awesome! I understand the idea(s) behind trying to use “patriotism” to get the flag waving masses that love the US. But I feel that it is too much about trying to appeal to conservatives and conservative values. Which has always seemed counter productive. Conservatism is literally the enemy of us evolving into a new state of society. Conservatives are focused on rolling things back and do everything possible to not learn new things, or to understand/care about why minority groups (race/sex/gender/etc) should have the same liberties as they do. We wouldn’t need special laws and shit if the conservatives (and the moderates that constantly care about offending the conservatives or otherwise rocking the boat) were already treating them as “normal” or whatever.
They also get too excited and proud of past “victories” of the US. Of which they refuse to except that much of said “victories” were lies or at least super exaggerated into whitewashed tall tales. Preferring to lash out at actual critical focus on lies told or the factual fucked up shit that was done. The “civil war was actually about states’ rights” crowd shouldn’t ever be pandered to.
Those that are ready to truly walk down the hard but vitally necessary path of self-criticism of the past in order to work to something better are the ones that should be embraced. Building to something that is worth being proud of is where that “patriotic” energy should be used for. But it should be kept at a friendly and spirited manor (like cheering for your Olympic team type shit). But not to the point of victory of the nation at the expense of others. Conservatism is just as much a threat as the liberal idealism that has replaced monarchies of the past.
Also the Patsocs are kind of scary quick to start using MAGA chud put downs and just completely stop trying to build understanding. Unironically just start getting loud and calling people “cuck removed” and shit. I can’t take anyone serious when they start going on some hard “machismo” nonsense. That shit is nothing but hate and would better serve the fascist groups. I imagine that many of them will just show up on hard-right media with stories about how they “used to be a communist/socialist before they realized how much better the hard-right actually is”. Jumping on the very lucrative grift stuff we have seen for decades.
Spaniard here. Giving this issue of patsocs, I am obligated to bring the petition to ban every sign of patriotism regarding Spain and specially if talking about the past, and also if mixed with catholic paraphernalia. Trust me, those are irredeemable signs of literal fascism. Example, the fucking scumbag of Santiago Armesilla.
Santiago Armesilla has produced quite important works where he synthesizes the philosophical materialism of the philosopher Gustavo Bueno with the dialectical materialism of Marx. Beyond that, you are absolutely right.
He has always defended Spanish imperialism and has justified on many occasions the deplorable acts committed by the Spanish empire. And not only that. He is, as you rightly comment, a sympathizer of the conservative and Catholic parties in Spain and he’s also transphobic.
When I really seen his true colors, was when some 5 years ago or so, Catalans where campaigning for independence, and made a popular referendum in which, literally, I shit you not, okay? In a Looney Toons Cruiser like ten thousand of military police went to Catalonia, all hight as fuck of snorting coke, almost everyone being tattooed with Nazi paraphernalia, to smash catalanists. Of course, the movement went nowhere, since only a socialist movement will in any way will emancipate this nation, but they literally had a “white card” to go and do bonehead/nazi raids on the streets to pass time during the nights.
And that motherfucking asshole went like “good”.
My balls dropped.
What’s his story? Is he a reactionary socialist, or maybe a catholic dominionist?
TL;DR a nazbol, but instead of nazi, it’s NatCath.
He’s a self claimed communist that’s a reactionary, spanish imperialism apologist, and even declared himself as “atheist catholic”, which basically means “I don’t believe in God but “Land, Patriotism and God(” Tierra, Patria y Dios” are the Francoist/Fascist motto)", and ideologically defended the settlements on Morocco, Catalonia and Euskadi+Navarra.
He was the main reason that the PCOE had to have a purge, being him purged. (note: I may be confusing PCOE with PCPE, which as you can see, have very simmilar names).
This is sure material for the “how it’s going” meme.
This ban does not include those who feel some level of “patriotism” (for lack of a better word) for non-settler states ( namely those who have historically been victims of colonialism ).
How about past or future proletarian states?
Future proletarian states? How does one talk about the future?
By idealist prophecies and unexplained slogans of course /s
Seriously, for example by a political program of an communist party. Or a speculation for one.
Such as?
Past socialist state as in USSR or PRL or DDR for example. Future, as in the ones for which establishment socialists are fighting, names and scope are probably yet to be decided.
Of course not, we support the USSR and DDR here, neither were settler-colonialist states. The USSR and peoples in eastern europe were the victim of european colonialism in the form of nazism.
The nazis really wanted to emulate what the US settler project acheived, and they were explicit about that, and do to eastern europe what the US did to turtle island.
On a side note, can i block single thread or single community on lemmy so to not see it?
You can block communities
How? I just see block user button?
In your profile settings you can add a community to a blocklist
Past socialist state as in USSR or PRL or DDR for example.
The answer to this should be obvious from the number of Stalin posts and GDR imagery that literally everyone celebrates and never get downvotes. AES obviously had their issues at times but are/were legitimately marxist and necessary alleviators of class antagonisms.
Future, as in the ones for which establishment socialists are fighting, names and scope are probably yet to be decided.
Obviously this would depend on the character of these projects. Good dialectical analysis doesn’t draw conclusions in broad strokes but considers each situation, its historical causes, and the class interests of its proponents. Hence why we celebrate the Bolsheviks and not the Socialist Revolutionary Party.
