• HexesofVexes@lemmy.world
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    6 days ago

    Academic here - it’s 100% genocide. More so, it’s the worst kind of genocide, it’s sanctioned genocide built upon conflating a people with their government.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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      6 days ago

      built upon conflating a people with their government.

      Which makes those people in other parts of the world (myself included) inherently less safe.

      In fact, if I could point to one single factor that has made Jews less safe in this world post-WWII, it would be Israel.

      • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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        5 days ago

        Israel is the best fucking recruitment tool antisemitism has.

        Fuck Zionism, Fuck Empires

      • HexesofVexes@lemmy.world
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        6 days ago

        Yup, most people of the Jewish faith are not the state of Israel. Much as most people of the Islamic faith are not terrorists. People mostly just want to lead comfortable lives.

        It’s a great case of A->B being misunderstood as A<->B to justify incredible shittiness.

        I do sometimes wonder if I should write a paper full of examples suggesting that this really simple misunderstanding of logic is what drives the enshittification of humanity _

        • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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          6 days ago

          Last I checked, the number of Jews in New York state alone and the number of Jews in Israel was pretty close to equal.

          • HexesofVexes@lemmy.world
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            6 days ago

            I think that’s the conflation - Jews in Israel and Jews in New York state fall into the set Jews. However the right wing supporters of Netenyahu’s government are but a subset of the former.

            A better comparison would be that the number of Jews in New York state was once close to the number of peaceful Palestinians and peaceful Israelis; meanwhile, the number of hardline genocidal Israelis was roughly equal to the number of Hamas terrorists. Those sets seem a better match, as they share more core categorical features.

      • inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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        4 days ago

        This is a feature not a bug, similar to the “birthright” trips Jewish teens abroad get for free. “Birthright” is a propaganda trip that tries to get teenagers to make Israeli contacts and get them to want to “make Aaliyah” and move to Israel and make more babies for the IDF.

    • iAvicenna@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      Well there is the genocide where many other nations turn a blind eye to (“oops sorry we did not see what was happening there”) and then there is the genocide where multiple other nations actively support it while trying to look like they are slapping wrists (“bad Israel! bad Israel!” passes weapons under the table)

    • Joker@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      6 days ago

      I am genuinely curious, what kind of academic are you?

      I am asking because I didn’t understand why your credentials would benefit your comment and why did you feel the need to mention it before stating your opinion on a anonymous community.

      You might be joking when you are saying that you are academic, but I am asking in case you where serious.

      • sigmaklimgrindset@sopuli.xyz
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        6 days ago

        Probably playing off of this part of the article:

        "[…] I discarded the argument that scholars haven’t reached a conclusion on whether the Gaza genocide is really taking place”, Marshall wrote in his decision.

        • HexesofVexes@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          Pretty much - most of us (scholars being a synonym for academics, a set I do belong to [lectureship in mathematics and statistics]) agree that bombing the homes of people into rubble and striking the camps they flee to is an intentional attempt to erase a cultural group.

          • ashar@infosec.pub
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            5 days ago

            Your field of study is not directly relevant here (unless you work to figure out the death toll, maybe). However scholars that do study genocide do now seem to agree that the killing of Palestinians by Israel is a genocide.

        • brbposting@sh.itjust.works
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          6 days ago

          Indeed.

          @joker@sh.itjust.works - moreso tactfully pointing out we must be aware of credential inflation and to avoid reliance on appeals to authority?

          The naïve optimist in me wants the @HexesofVexes@lemmy.world of the world to keep on revealing their backgrounds as it adds to discussions for me. Disappointing that I should be more skeptical.

  • SoupBrick@yiffit.net
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    6 days ago

    British Wikipedian, Stuart Marshall, made the final ruling in September, decisively supporting the article’s inclusion. “Based on the strength of the arguments … and it’s not close … I discarded the argument that scholars haven’t reached a conclusion on whether the Gaza genocide is really taking place”, Marshall wrote in his decision. “The matter remains contested, but there’s a metric truckload of scholarly sources linked in this discussion that show a clear predominance of academics who say that it is.”

    • otp@sh.itjust.works
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      6 days ago

      “Stu, you can’t say metric fuckton”

      It is what it is.

      “I’m not publishing that.”

      Fine! A metric truckton.

      • thanks_shakey_snake@lemmy.ca
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        5 days ago

        I didn’t actually realize that he didn’t say “metric fuckton” until I saw your comment and went back to reread it.

  • whithom@discuss.online
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    6 days ago

    Because everyone knows if you say it’s not genocide, it’s not genocide. 🇨🇳🇮🇱🇷🇺🇺🇸

    • Billiam@lemmy.world
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      If it doesn’t come from the Armenian region of Türkiye it’s not a genocide, it’s sparkling ethnic cleansing.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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        Damn it, you came up with a better ‘sparkling’ joke than I was thinking of.

        I bow to the master.

        • Billiam@lemmy.world
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          I’ve been relistening to the Hardcore History episodes about World War 1, and Dan Carlin makes an interesting observation: Türkiye gets so pissy when you call what the Young Turks did the “Armenian genocide” but genocides are so common throughout history that it would be notable if a country didn’t commit one. Israel is also mad about calling what they’re doing in Gaza as a genocide, insisting that the 40,000 Gazans who have been killed were obviously Hamas, even 70% of which were women and children.

          “Genocide” and “Nazi” are now odd words in English- they’re concepts that certain deplorable people have no qualms with idealizing and adhering to, as long as you don’t call them that.

        • whithom@discuss.online
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          6 days ago

          I would also love to hear yours. That line of sparkling comparison is definitely something I’m going to add to my vocabulary

  • molave@reddthat.com
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    5 days ago

    The people who disagree probably can’t reconcile that who they consider the good guys can do very evil things. That’s in addition to those who actually consider Palestinians subhuman or worse.

    • jonne@infosec.pub
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      6 days ago

      Unfortunately they can’t quote Wikipedia directly in their work, but they can use the sources in the article.

  • AreaSIX @lemm.ee
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    4 days ago

    The IDF just announced that they’ve discovered a Hamas command and control center under Jimmy Wales’ khouse. It’ll be dealt with accordingly.

  • azuth@sh.itjust.works
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    Yes but what is Wikipedia going to actually do about it? Just create another article? We should dismantle Wikipedia!

    • affiliate@lemmy.world
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      did you read the article?

      British Wikipedian, Stuart Marshall, made the final ruling in September, decisively supporting the article’s inclusion. “Based on the strength of the arguments … and it’s not close … I discarded the argument that scholars haven’t reached a conclusion on whether the Gaza genocide is really taking place”, Marshall wrote in his decision. “The matter remains contested, but there’s a metric truckload of scholarly sources linked in this discussion that show a clear predominance of academics who say that it is.”

      Marshall concluded his ruling with the straightforward statement: “We follow the scholars.”

      On its “Gaza genocide” page, it states that “Experts, governments, United Nations agencies, and non-governmental organisations have accused Israel of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian people during its invasion and bombing of the Gaza Strip in the ongoing Israel–Hamas war.”

      • lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com
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        And the German Wikipedia community sees it differently (differently = waiting for an official decision) and does not allow an article called “Gaza Genozid” until now…

        The matter remains contested

        That could also be the argument for calling the article “Genocide accusations” and waiting for the ICJ…

        On its “Gaza genocide” page, it states that “Experts, governments, United Nations agencies, and non-governmental organisations have accused Israel of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian people during its invasion and bombing of the Gaza Strip in the ongoing Israel–Hamas war.”

        Compared to the previous 2 quotes, this is actually a fact: There are accusations.


        PS: Just to make it clear: I am not the ICJ either. And I think, it’s fine to share it as an opinion (“I think, there is a genocide happening”), but referencing it as a fact (“The genocide is getting worse”) before it is actually classified as one by the people who are responsible to do so, is just not useful at all. I know, that especially people from the USA see this differently.

        • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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          5 days ago

          The German wikipedia can make its own editorial decisions. They also don’t have a Rohingya genocide article, only an article about the Rohingya genocide case at the ICJ. The English Wikipedia has two articles. It would seem the crux of the matter is that the Germans treat the word genocide as a purely legal term and therefore wait for the ICJ decision, whereas the English treat the word as a topic on which a scholarly academic consensus can be pronounced, in addition to the legal proceedings. One can argue back and forth about which approach has more or less merit, but they are both valid.

          Edit: grammar