NB: Initially I was asking imperial core comrades due to some potential common experiences that I was looking for but it was suggested that I widen the scope and I agree.
Coming from England where 90% of our culture is consumerism or lifted from America (so more consumerism) I have no affinity for what “makes me english”.
The only real culture or tradition in the England is bourgeois propaganda/bread and circuses nonsense like the opening of parliament or the queen’s platty joobs or bank holidays (lol).
As the proletariat/lumpen there is no culture outside of football and consumerism.
So to that end, what exactly makes one English? Chauvinism and imperialism? Two things that only really benefit the aristocracy.
We aren’t even “english”. We are mostly Anglo saxon but most of us have parts gaelic, celtic, norse, germanic etc history. We aren’t Anglo saxons really, we are just mongrels with white skin and no culture so I don’t get what the fucking nationalists are so proud of. Lol our fucking royal family is less Anglo than we are!!
I have no cultural ties to England, this country has only hurt me and millions of others. We have no beautiful cultural events, music, art etc. Its just homogenised capitalist culture shared with most of the imperial core. The same can be found in every country apart from Brit pop. Get in what a claim to fame.
I speak from an English perspective as scotland, Ireland and Wales DO have culture. But in England we’ve lost any we might have had. I even have Irish mostly and some Welsh and Scottish in me but I’ve never gotten to embrace or experience those cultures, it’s stomped out of you and erased through engloid chauvinism growing up.
As a country we’ve became a shell, white people existing to exist, no love or respect for our history because we have none. Its just rich people fighting other rich.
People might say knights and Kings etc but how is that my history? It’s the history of the aristocracy battling for their wants. As a “serf” we’ve just existed. They try to teach us English history in school and its just slaughter and exploitation. There’s nothing good. It’s all just murder and death and it’s not “we need to be better than our history”, it’s “this history allowed us to be better than everyone else” and that makes me sick.
So with this in mind, why would I care if another country took over? Say china came and ripped England from the royals grip, why would I worry provided I trusted them to look after the citizens better than our own government?
My allegiance isn’t to my country or some nostalgic memory of history, its to human beings. To the workers of this world and to that end what do I care of national identity and my non existent culture?
It’s struck me as a thought, does this exemplify why leftist or more accurately communist thought is such a threat to governments. Its not constrained by national pride or identity so those mechanisms and means of control fail right?
The only reason I see anyone for having any loyalty to England is because we are trapped here, and as traumatised workers without an escape we are doomed to just scrape some existence out of this wretched nation, living in fear that if we don’t swear loyalty to our flag we will die in hunger and pain.
I dunno I’m just sundowning I guess. Depressed and chatting shit.
Edit: I think I just need a hug lol 🤣
German here. People here really love to point out that we have a democracy but it’s just for show.
The greens just agreed to build more coal plants and close our last nuclear ones and together with the “workers” party they up our military spending and encourage more wars. Did I also mention that we basically single-handedly stop the entire EU from advancing their climate goals?
There is nothing to be prouud of here, but everyone loves it as all people I know embraced neoliberalism.
Some even say it out loud no joke: “I don’t care what happens to people in 3rd world countries as long as the government at least keeps me happy.”
I don’t identify with any of this, I guess at least we fund people who want to study with affordable and really easy to pay off loans (for me going to college now I don’t even have to pay it back).
That sounds eerily similar the the UK sometimes with people happy to see 3rd world countries suffer provided our standard of living is maintained.
England used to have more affordable higher education but the tories culled that sadly.
So given the following:
- The Beaver Wars, The Northwest Indian War, Tecumseh’s War, the Trail of Tears, The Sioux Wars, the Apache Wars, and everything in between.
- The extermination of Native American cultures through Residential Schools, land grabs on Reservation land, Forced Sterilization, and Neglect leading to thousands of preventable deaths.
- Chattel Slavery and the creation of modern racism to support the social structure of slavery.
- Racist policies (like redlining) that have always kept People of Color in not only physical segregation, but also in servile roles where even those with status could have it taken from them within hours of a change in sentiment.
- The burning/razing of black neighborhoods and near-random lynchings of black people.
- The oppression against Chinese migrants, particularly as physical laborers.
- The continued use of Latino immigrants for underpaid migrant contract work.
- The Conquests of Hawai’i, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines and the suppression of their self determination as Nations.
- The Construction of the Panama Canal, during which 200 people died per month.
- The Monroe Doctrine and the continued policy of suppressing Latin Americans acting in their own interests, including the assassination of Salvadore Allende and the Bay of Pigs invasion.
- The assassinations of American Marxists, and mass murders committed by detective agencies against labor organizers.
- The police suppression of lgbt culture and the current reaction of calling lgbt people “groomers”.
- The methodical dismantling of American labor movements and their integration into liberal power structures, which continues to this day.
I cannot in good conscience identify with anything American. The various peoples manipulated into coming here through imperialist wars, plunder, and imbalance of trade might call themselves Americans, but their freedom would be better won through the dismantling of the machine that created the conditions of their oppression. People are not citizens of a nation state before they are human beings. Their participation in the project is an illusion designed to exploit them. Even capitalist realist art is carefully censored to redirect anger from capital in order to manufacture consent for the hegemony of white men to continue on as the owning class of the West. Jeff Bezos is America, Bill Gates is America, Nancy Pelosi is America, and Donald Trump is America. And the mobs of reactionaries they recruit to bomb, burn, lynch, rape, and acculturate for their ‘values’ are America.
[Insert John Brown quote here.]
America, not to be outdone by the English in cruelty went keen.
You’ve put it so well, articulation = max.
I have nothing of substance to add.
Afterward I remembered the US is the first and only country to use atomic weapons against other people.
Yeah 😔 if the bombings and their “necessity” is ever a topic of conversation, I take to describing the effects in stark detail. So many people who want to justify the bombs don’t even know what they did to people.
New Afrikan as we created our own culture out of almost nothing
Too bad it’s constantly being stolen though
That’s gotta be rough Comrade 😞
Bonus: I’m also Bermudian and will absolutely identify as such, however we’re still classified as a “British Overseas Territory” 🤮 fuck that ugly ass Union Jack
Erghh that phrase, its such a god awful thing. It is an ugly flag Comrade, like sans all the horrors associated with it. It’s just aesthetically ugly.
I’ve never felt that much connected to my birthcountry, The Netherlands. I do feel a connection with the town I grew up in, a rougher working class town. But not so much the country. I don’t have special feelings for places like Amsterdam or Groningen or whatever. But I don’t dislike them or their people either.
This became even more clear when I migrated to another country. People sometimes ask me what I miss and I can’t think of anything other than maybe family and friends. But not a cultural thing. I do sometimes struggle with a lack of Dutch directness but I don’t really miss it.
At the same time I don’t feel ‘Belgian’ or something right now either. I like the place where I live and I like my friends over here, but I don’t feel culturally connected or something.
I’ve always felt like me I guess. I’m sure my country of birth had some influences on my character but I don’t really feel the need to do things ‘the Dutch way’, whatever that is.
Yeah that’s fair I totally get what you mean 😊
I’d also like to add that a lot of Dutch pride comes from us being a rich country with a high standard of living. Becoming a communist and reading Marx let me to understand where that comes from. Exploiting others.
I can’t be proud of my country because I can’t be proud of its history.
This is essentially where I’m at and tried to articulate but you’ve said it way more succinctly.
I liked your part about history lessons because Western history, especially Dutch and English, is just either killing non-white people or other white people because they want control of our non-white people.
‘In this century we set sail to Indonesia, where we killed, exploited and erased their culture and people. The next century we somehow ended up in Africa where we did the same. The next century, though, the Bri’ish set sail to our land to kill us. Anyway, all this killing and plundering and abuse did make some people in this country rich though. Be proud we killed half the globe because without that your life would be much more miserable!’
Thank you 😊
It’s exactly how you described there though, through murder we placed ourselves above the rest. That’s not history, that’s a list of crimes against humanity.
When countries go around the world killing, raping and looting everything they come across they get called ‘beacons of democracy’ and ‘civilized’ but when I do the same in my city I get solitary confinement smh
Hahaha imagine using that as a defence for looting. “I was just following my countries example!!”
I’ve found something I’m proud of. Mom, get the camera.
Riding bicycles. I’ve never truly appreciated Dutch bicycle culture until I moved away and I now have to sometimes fear for my life because the bikepath stops and I need to get on the road.
I’ve read a comment once on some YouTube video about worldclass bike infrastructure that said something like: ‘Dutch bike infrastructure isn’t world class. It’s Dutch class, which is way better.’ and I agree with that.
Yes the bikes! That’s one of my favorite parts about living in NL. It’s so easy to just bike everywhere. Also helps keep bills down without paying for cars and insurance.
I’d have a heart attack, drivers are scary when you bike.
Same, homie. There’s aspects of my local culture that are cool, but they all originate with the Latin or black communities. I don’t feel American, I don’t even really identify as white (like, I know I look it). I think I’m just a communist, honestly.
Yep! It’s weird when you think about it vs say the people around you who’s identities might be incredibly invested in their nationality.
I really like pie and chips. I think English breakfast is nice. My list is mainly food related.
For some reason our country’s obsession with history is mainly war or capitalism. WW2 and the industrial revolution. Both events resulted in the death of common people.
It’s all competition, all about being the best which is pathetic. Especially when we whitewash the shit out of our history. There are some good historical figures in different fields but they all get overshadowed by capitalists or war mongers.
I love chicken balti pies but even then I’m angloising another cultures food.
I guess we have Black Sabbath as well.
Full agree with your other point though.
I’m Born in America, my grandma was born in Poland(modern day Belarus, but she doesn’t identify as Belarusian) and during WW2 Stalin allowed refugees and orphans. She lived in Leningrad for years and years. Eventually she lived in Mexico for a brief while before meeting up with her brother in USA where he was evacuated. Given that, our family personally identifies more with the Russian side because my grandma’s cousins and nephews that still live in Europe are all living in Russia. My great grandparents on my Mom’s side were all from Ireland. I basically split my ethnic identity between Irish and Russian, I speak a bit of Russian with some family. But tbh, I’m white and from the US and both my parents are the same, so Russia and Ireland are foreign to me. I guess my ethic identity by now is American. I went to Ireland once and enjoyed it but I didn’t feel Irish. It’s not disappointing or awful, it’s just one of those things, the US is trash and if I’m gonna identify as American I might as well just go ahead and try to improve the place and participate in organizing and agitation(also bc I’m too broke to leave this godforsaken dystopia)
Yeah that’s fair, while we are where we are we should do more than succumb to despair. At least that’s the vibe I’ve gotten from replies and one i should try to emulate more.
I’m not from the imperial core. I’m from the Caribbean (SVG). I have rather mixed feelings about where I am from. I identify (especially lately) quite strongly with certain aspects of the culture. I like the laid back „we do it when we do it“ attitude, I like the partying, and the community. But the homophobia and pressure to conform forced me to leave.
Thats gotta be rough, to have to leave because of it. Are you in a better place now?
I thought it was better overall at first, moved into Europe. The longer I stayed the more I realised I traded one form of unhappiness for another. Then I became a marxist and the veil fell away, I think I see how things are here for what they are, and I’m sure things will only get worse here not better.
I wish I could say I knew what to do about it. Staying here and fighting/dying for westerners is a really hard sell for me; it’s not like I was welcomed here either.
I think my future lies somewhere where people accept me, otherwise fighting for their liberation is a hard thing to wrap me head around. The problem is I don’t have a good idea of where that can be, and I feel like time will run out at some point soon.
Yeah that’s fair, don’t feel pressured or on a time limit though. I’m trying to find some community work to do to help feel like I’m contributing to helping people but I get your point about not feeling welcome.
As someone not from the Imperial core, I can relate to my brazillian culture. I love our songs, partying such as festa junina, our food such as brigadeiro, etc… Though I recognize that our culture is mainly due to the African influence along with some from European and Indigenous.
I think regaining culture is a must for socialist revolutions. In the case from the USA for example, I really like Jazz and country music.
That all sounds soo cool ngl.
I do love Jazz and Bluegrass. If only those were americas main cultural export lol.
Well, I do have a strong connection with my country,same as the rest of my family, the thing is, that country disappeared 30 years ago, and no, I don’t have even a tiny bit of connection with whatever the fuck this is now…
Also, here is a hug!🤗
I’m sorry to hear that Comrade. At least for now it can live on in you though! (Trying to be positive)
Awwwh and one back for you! 🫂
I hope it will be back one day!
And thank you very much!🤗
Not at all 😊
im an american and do not identify with America, the closest thing that I do identify with is the international communist movement.
I saw this on reddit ages ago and I finally have a use for it 🥰 dook dook
haha I love it!!!
Use it with pride. Ferrets are adorable.
Many European nations did have a vibrant and beautiful culture before capitalism destroyed it all. I’m reading the Count of Monte Cristo right now and Dumas’ description of the Roman carnival sounds so fun and jubilant, with so many unique traditions such dressing up in costume, horse races, the lighting of candles representing life and death, etc.
Of course, nowadays? Very little to be proud of. But I think to say there’s not a history of culture to look back on and draw from once the revolution has succeeded is misguided.
(this isnt patsoc btw)
I like that idea though, that once we are free from the rot of capitalism there might be culture to rediscover and cherish.
England is a facile invention and lacks any kind of notable culture as a result. In this specific context, regional identities are far more notable. Liverpudlians, Mancunians, Geordies, Cornish, etc, are felt far more keenly.
Sometimes these things find their outlet in food culture, but dialect and language is an extremely prevalent cultural marker in England. Even those engaging in received pronunciation play this game. Compared to, say, France, it’s incredibly diverse.
There’s also a cultural memory of grievance - that which has been done to “you” by other English regions, or England as a whole. Hillsborough is an example of this; boycotting the Sun is a a big deal in Liverpool, even today, while in Yorkshire, they’re still bitter about the harrying of the north, and salty about lancaster to boot.
Regional-level sports also carry this charge, whether it’s county darts or county cricket.
But England? Nah, it’s not even real.
Yeah you are right, our city based identities resonate with us all more.
I never thought about the memory of grievance, I’ve always just rolled with it and in the case of Hillsborough being outraged at the pigs and the sun because fuck em.
❌ “american” ❌
✅ “future partisan” ✅
Based
So reading this thread has been quite depressing. There is so much self-hate here it is frankly concerning.
To clarify a few things and the position from which I speak: I am a Russian citizen of Jewish ancestry. Now, my family had never really kept in touch with the local Jewish community, nor its culture. All of it as about as alien to me, as cultures of foreign countries. At the same time, I very obvioulsy do not look “Slavic”, am not Christian and have a fairly rare name and surname (the latter is German). So I am pretty much alienated from what is often considered “Russian” culture.
With that in mind, I am rather alarmed to see people here say things like “I have no culture”, or “whites have culture”. Your (and mine tbh) cultures have been co-opted by capitalists and commodified to hell and back, but so what? Do you really have to bash yourself, just because some aristocrats were pillaging other people across the globe? You weren’t there, you did not participate. Being “white”, or English, or Anglo-USian is not a crime by itself.
TL;DR I am concerned for the mental state of the comrades.
Who said it was a crime to be from the imperial core?
I think you’ve assumed a lot in your comment.
Conversations around feeling isolated or disconnected from the culture of one’s country doesn’t mean I hate myself for it.
If anything I’d argue the acknowledgement of what constitutes “culture” and how I’m not bound by it is freeing.
I don’t feel constrained by the dogmatic views of my own “culture” and while I can feel isolated the thread and replies have being positive and helped shed light on areas where we can appreciate culture free of capitalist degradation.
If I spoke at length about feeling ashamed of myself for being white or repeat posted stuff like this I’d see your point but I haven’t and don’t. I have taken aim at the “cultural zeitgeist” of England but I’m not blaming myself for that.
Being ashamed for my countries history and beliefs isn’t the same as feeling ashamed at myself for being born in said country. If anything it motivates me to be better.
People are allowed to be negative Comrade, forced positivity can be as warping as doomerism. Its learning when to let things go and move on that is healthy and talking in the c/freechat instance about how I felt, getting some thoughtful and engaging comments and moving on happier is surely what this thread and instance are for.
If the conversation wasn’t productive sure but for me at least (the OP) listening to people’s views and takes has being positive and productive. Politely; you don’t get to police what upsets me and it kinda annoys me you’ve done that without even knowing about me or my mental health.
I certainly wouldn’t categorise it as the red flag you have.