• aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
    31·
    2 years ago

    Very interesting how all those “pretend socialists” only exist in the third world, and all the “real socialists” existin the west. Yet all the successful revolutions have been done in the third world by “pretend socialists”, and the so called “real socialists” in the west have accomplished nothing. Their biggest success of the “real socialists” in the west being capitalist welfare states or social democracies that rely on old school imperial relationships to fund their welfare in a select few areas.

    No Eurocentrism present to this line of thought here at all…

    What do you think of Nelson Mandela OP? He was a very good leader, right? You know that he considered Cuba an ally and supported their revolution as Cuba sent troops to fight against the apartheid government in the border wars, took inspiration from Mao and called the Chinese revolution a miracle, thanked the Soviets for giving unending support in the fight against apartheid while receiving the a Lenin Peace Prize? So is Nelson Mandela now a fascist according to your meme?

  • Annakah69 [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    1·
    2 years ago

    You have a lifetime of anti communist propaganda to overcome. You’re close, take the last step and realize you’ve been lied to about AES countries. No place is a utopia, but those countries are lights in the dark.

  • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
    1·
    2 years ago

    I agree. Fascist countries like Denmark, Germany and Canada often get called “socialist” and they have been disastrous for the reputation of socialism.

    • Grimble [he/him,they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      0·
      2 years ago

      Why would you defend a guy who ordered deaths alongside Lenin then immediately left and cozied up to 1920s American fascism to make books about “The Betrayed Revolution” because he didnt get his share?

      Trotsky was a socialist. After his defection, he did next to nothing to advance socialism, only to passively denounce the closest thing the world had then to a Socialist Order. And he did this by going to their enemies, objectively the least socialist-tolerant bloc on Earth. Archetypal example of a self-centered “leftist” who folds inward and exclusively talks about their own life/‘persecution’ after one falling-out with the organized left. Look at Trotskyists nowadays and tell me they aren’t walking parodies who talk like Broadway characters. It says a lot abt how off-kilter you have to be to throw yourself behind Trotsky’s weirdo ‘cause’

      EDIT: To be clear, while I havent seen much of his work, I respect parts of his legacy. I’m sure there’s a lot of insight in his writing - reading criticism from a seasoned former Bolshevik is interesting, and the perspective is useful for making sense of the wider movement. I also understand he was under a lot of personal pressure at the time he fled the USSR. Despite any merit Stalin showed in WW2 or the Union’s massive industrialization effort, it must’ve seemed unfair to many party members that he was chosen to succeed Lenin (not sure of specifics on that event). I’d even say his assassination wasn’t necessary, and the graphic details aren’t something I take pride in. However, at the end of the day Trotsky’s decision to defect was a net negative for socialism in the early 20th century. He should’ve tried to be a different kind of conscientious objector, not a voice of anti-Soviet dissent.

      • u_die_for_elmer@lemm.ee
        2·
        2 years ago

        Wow. I guess someone has never actually read Trotsky or anything from Trotskyist. Try some Tony Cliff. Also, how you think Trotskyist sound today is not an indictment of Trotsky. Being critical of a revolution that has failed and the leaders and politics that followed is not the crime you think it is.
        Jesus fucking Christ this is not the revolutionary left we need. Grow the fuck up.

        edit: That’s funny, either you posted your edit while i was typing my response or I didn’t see it some how. either way. I’m sorry for being such a dick. I’m just so fed up with folks online regarding, what i would call state capitalist countries as genuine socialism, and rejecting any criticism of said states, as capitalist loving trash. Somehow Marxism has become a ridged dogma for these people. With the campist and the tankies distorting revolutionary socialism so much i fell like i live in upside down world. again sorry comrade. I would suggest “the two souls of socialism”. side note Trotsky was Lenin’s pick as leader not Stalin. Had he not “defected” he would likely have been killed by Stalin much earlier, like many of the seasoned former Bolsheviks who lead and then tried to defend the revolution against Stalin.

        • xXthrowawayXx [none/use name]@hexbear.netBannedEnglish
          0·
          2 years ago

          I’m not gonna engage with you about Trotsky but holy fucking shit you’re the mythical “state capitalist” sayer who actually is a self aware cliffite.

          It’s a pleasure to meet you!

          E:

          Trotsky was Lenin’s pick

          I see what you did there!

        • Grimble [he/him,they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
          0·
          2 years ago

          What kind of revolutionary left do you want? Regardless, wanting to hard-reboot an existing radical movement over its perceived “failure” - while it’s still gaining traction - is what Trotsky did, and it just threw a wrench into things.

          And not to be that guy, but the negativity isn’t doing you favors. I made an effort to be reasonable and objective (except the Modern Trotskyites bit, since they honestly feel too sus and self-destructive to take seriously). If you’re feeling threatened by that, idk what to tell you. This is just what we believe. No one pays us for it.

        • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          01·
          2 years ago

          In none of this exchange did you demonstrate a fraction of the knowledge as the person you’re berating. You just genuinely don’t seem to know anything except how to sound confident in an online argument. So I’m sorry but listening to you lament all the wayward academics and telling people to grow the fuck up just doesn’t land. I think you’re just full of shit.

  • randon31415@lemmy.world
    1·
    2 years ago

    -Country: Elects socialist leader.

    -America: Disrupts country to dispose leader.
    -Success: Country no longer Socialist.
    -Failure: Strongman comes to power to resist. Resists disruption, becomes dictator. Country no longer Socialist.

      • JokeDeity@lemm.eeBanned from community
        1·
        2 years ago

        It’s such a fucking pain in my ass to have to block every single community from Lemmygrad and Hexbear. I’m so tired of seeing their dumbass 7th grade love of fascists and racism.

        • Orbituary@lemmy.world
          1·
          2 years ago

          It’s astounding that they are fascist lovers but parody the use of Leningrad in their name. Pick an ethos, guys.

        • Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          0·
          2 years ago

          One of the many things I love about Blahaj is that we’re no longer federated with Hexbear, there was a bit (frankly a shit ton)of drama getting there but those days when we were federated I blocked more Hexbear users than users from any other instance.

          Join us on Blahaj, we’re explicitly queer friendly and we don’t have to deal with Hexbear anymore.

          Of course once we can migrate accounts that will likely be a far easier sell.

        • Vuraniute@thelemmy.clubOPEnglish
          0·
          2 years ago

          alongside having to block all the users that intrude on other subs to post their tankie propaganda

          • ikiru@lemmy.ml
            01·
            2 years ago

            I’m guessing you’re an anarchist, which I appreciate and so I totally understand why you may not like these instances, but do you ever feel like some of the people criticizing Lemmygrad and Hexbear are Right-wingers themselves?

            I fully support Leftist critiques but some of these claims are kind of wild. Someone claiming hexbear is racist? How would it be racist, from a Leftist perspective? It just seems to me like Right-wingers are attacking them with these ridiculous claims to get them to be defederated or at least to get people to stay away and not understand the humor. If someone critiqued them for defending the State when communism should include the dissolution of the State apparatus, the recuperation of initially revolutionary movements by global capitalism, etc. then I’d appreciate the Leftist critiques but it doesn’t seem to me to be the case. And it doesn’t seem to me like there is any monolithic position at hexbear either. I actually was further pleasantly surprised to see they had an anarchism community and also a Christianity community at hexbear, it doesn’t feel to me like they have a hard Stalinist party-line and don’t accept differences among the Left.

            I do get the feeling they don’t like Right-wingers though.

            • cooljacob204@kbin.social
              1·
              2 years ago

              I’m just gonna talk about your first paragraph. No they are not right wingers lmao. I fucking hate that you can’t be centrist or democratic socialist without some asshole (not you, you’re just asking) saying you’re a right winger.

              I believe the west has better equality, stability, quality of life, rights, morals, so and and so forth.

              And I think we need to greatly expand our social programs.

              However if I defend the west then suddenly I’m a right winger? Fuck off with that classification shit. I just don’t subscribe to Russia and China somehow being better then the US or the west in any sort of way.

              This is why these social movements never get any movement in the US. They’re too busy self hating and worshipping facists in the East.

              • socsa@lemmy.mlBanned
                0·
                2 years ago

                What you are describing is called “campism” in socialist communities which aren’t run by edgy teenagers and trolls.

              • ikiru@lemmy.ml
                0·
                2 years ago

                Thanks for your response and I appreciate the thought you put into it. I agree we need to greatly and desperately expand social programs. I also don’t think Russia or China are perfect, much less socialist, but I wouldn’t say the West—including the US—is categorically and unquestionably better in every sort of way. That being said, the Left does need to be broader in the West and everywhere else, which is why I think I’d rather hold solidarity with Leftists in these instances who I may not fully agree with rather than attacking them alongside Right-wingers and fascists.

                And, sorry, but, no offense, a centrist is a Right-winger to me and it proves my point.

                • cooljacob204@kbin.social
                  1·
                  2 years ago

                  My point is I’m only a right winger in a small niche bubble which is completely not the reality of things.

                  To most of the world I’m a lefty and to actual right wingers they would probably call me a communist (and sure incorrectly but not my point).

                  Right winger means maga idiot to most of the ppl in the US not democrat who wants to greatly expand our social programs and nets.

            • socsa@lemmy.mlBanned
              1·
              2 years ago

              Hexbear unironically defends Russia, which is an extremely racist and homophobic place. Likewise, China is also an extremely racist place, which is increasingly opposed to LGBT advocacy as “western degeneracy.” And of course, they fall over themselves to defend tyranny, as long as it pays lip service to socialist ideals, while denigrating social democrats as insincere “shit libs.” Then they post their little arms crossed emoji thinking they’ve made some point.

              By and large these people are children who legitimately have an extremely narrow view of the world they seek to critique. They see Lenin write that “imperialism is something everyone other than Russia does” and that’s about as far as they look into the underlying philosophy of imperialism.

              • ikiru@lemmy.ml
                0·
                2 years ago

                Well, I’m not going to comment on Russia’s imperialism being supported on Hexbear because I haven’t quite seen that as much as I’ve seen critique of Ukraine’s issue with Nazism and the West’s hypocritical denialism about that even existing as an issue in Ukraine—when during Euromaidan it was acknowledged. I don’t support Putin or the invasion, because while there are Nazis in Ukraine who should be dealt with the same could be said about Russia or the US itself, but I also don’t think the US is being smart by arming fascist Right-wingers. The US has done this before and it never works out well.

                I don’t quite see the racism argument though. Hexbear is racist because some people support Russia? I mean, yeah, Russia can definitely be racist and maybe some people at Hexbear probably support Russia in an uncritical way. But lacking any racist memes or racist discussions happening, of which I’ve seen none, I don’t think that equates to the users or the instance being racist. The US and Europe are extremely racist societies, I would argue way more racist than Russia, but I don’t see people arguing that instances with liberals who support the US are racist instances and should be defederated.

            • uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              0·
              2 years ago

              Oh, no, most of the critique, especially of lemmygrad, is from a right wing stance (right wing from an anarchist prospective). There are are plenty of good conversations to be had about the role of activism and the state in achieving liberation. But the standard critique is a knee jerk reaction.

              I blocked those two hexbear comnunities because they are the most likely to insert hexbear’s wild and unpleasant meme culture into my timeline. They aren’t terribly interested in any discussion that doesn’t start and end with their viewpoint, cause its meme culture.

              I have an 60% confidence I will get sea-lioned for this comment. Also a 20% chance I will get pig poop balls, although highlighting it may increase those odds

              edit: after 5 hours I did not get sea-lioned. I admit I was overly critical in that estimate.

              • kmkz_ninja@lemmy.world
                0·
                2 years ago

                Vhat is it that you feel unappealing about lemmygrad that does not agree with my opinions??

                Edit: Sorry bots work on a half-day timeline.

              • ikiru@lemmy.ml
                0·
                2 years ago

                Yeah, I’m seeing it’s more Right-wingers than anarchist comrades so I do get skeptical.

                But I understand about the meme culture. It can be heavy-handed but I actually like it. I think it’s funny and it is a nice break from just liberal or apolitical meme humor. I’ve seen some good discussions there though but honestly not too many anarchist discussions, although I get the feeling it wouldn’t be totally rejected. I wish there was more solidarity and love between us.

                https___www.hexbear.net_pictrs_image_68b4e09d-1bd1-4616-a9fc-5dffde94e49a

                Thanks for the response!

                • uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  0·
                  2 years ago

                  Yeah, I subscribe to and participate in soma hexbear communities. I don’t throw it all out. And of course, the majority of critique of liberation will come from the right wing. There are some anarchist comnunities on lemmy, I hope to see you there some time!

      • Rhabuko@feddit.de
        0·
        2 years ago

        Or simply choose a instance that defederates fascists and authoritarian loving dipsshits. Never had a problem here with far right or tankie content.

      • Akasazh@feddit.nl
        0·
        2 years ago

        In Connect it gives you the option of banning the instance. It will block out comments with a message that is was filtered. You get the option of viewing the content anyway, If you feel like it.

          • Akasazh@feddit.nl
            0·
            2 years ago

            I get you, I mean I can read some of the European languages that are big on lemmy, but I’d be quite annoying if I didn’t. But connect’s filter is quite handy with that, if you expect the comment to be in English, you can just read it.

            Love that featur, hope the browser based version will implement the same

      • rumckle@aussie.zone
        0·
        2 years ago

        The connect app allows you to block instances. Not the same as defeding obviously, but it helps.

    • Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      1·
      2 years ago

      Probably some tankie shit

      You’re probably missing out on a free headache by not seeing it

      Because so much tankie shit is so frustrating I get a headache

  • axont [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
    0·
    2 years ago

    us-foreign-policy

    Westerners deciding who’s doing real socialism or not. Westerners expressing their most vile sentiment for foreign countries rather than their own imperialism. Westerners praising the words of their own imperialist intelligence agencies. Westerners unironically praising their own nations for civil liberties like the freedom of fascists to assemble, freedom of racists to express themselves, freedom of parents to own their children, and freedom of school districts to continue racial segregation. Westerners praising imperialist nations like Norway as socialist while using bold language like fascism to describe places under that same exact threat of imperialism, like Cuba and Vietnam.

    Westerners claiming foreign governments are merely pretending to be socialist, while claiming unorganized misinformed chauvinistic westerners are the true heirs to socialism, despite all they do is post online and complain about foreign nations.

    Westerners praising anarchist movements from 100 years ago despite having no common cause with those movements, no connection to the circumstances within them, and probably no actual admiration of them. Westerners praising a bastardized, sectarian, perverse form of anarchism rather than attempting unity with organizations in their areas. Westerners refusing to speak with actual anarchists in their area, who by and large don’t give a shit and just want to hand out food or help at shelters. If Buenaventura Durruti were alive today he’d be regarded with scorn by western chauvinists.

    Westerners continuing to bring up Trotsky of all people, who wasn’t relevant to world affairs for the last 15 years of his life and certainly not the past 80 years. Westerners not reading a single word of Trotsky’s work, westerners focusing entirely on Trotsky’s feud with Stalin, westerners not knowing that Trotsky was a literal military commander. Westerners calling themselves Trotskyists in 2023 for some reason. Westerners deciding they have a feud with Joseph Stalin, a man who died in 1953.

    Westerners attempting to praise their own socialist leadership, who happen to be a scattered group of imperialist-aligned social democrats, Twitch streamers, and actual antisemitic grifters such as in the case of Caleb Maupin.