I remember when discussing Rogue One with my mother (who is not a big Star Wars fan), I mentioned that many felt it was out of place in the series, because it was unusually dark. To which my mother opined that the series was always dark.
In discussing it, it… honestly is. We fans sometimes overlook it, because the Original Trilogy is so triumphant in tone and grand in scale, and the Prequel Trilogy is… plagued with other problems… but Star Wars is dark in a way that original fairy tales are dark.
An entire civilization is exterminated in the first half hour.
And Han is explicitly tortured, with Leia both tortured and enslaved. It’s pretty grim.
2 millions troopers died on Death Star!
That halo explosion in the remastered version? Entirely made out of people.
Stormtroopers are robots!
Jokes aside, you don’t have to have everything explained to understand something. Yes, they didn’t show the bodies but you with a little use from logic you can see that Leia complaining about her pacific, weaponless planet being blown means it’s not desert. Same goes for the Death Star on which you see there are people until a few seconds later where it blows up. Same goes for everything.
Sure, maybe a kid won’t pick it up but that doesn’t mean Star Wars was light hearted in the OT
It’s only eye revealing if you literally aren’t paying attention. Vader straight up chokes and breaks the neck of an officer, killing him, that he’s interrogating on the rebel blockade runner in the first 10 minutes. Stormtroopers destroy and burn uncle owens farm and leaves his and his wife’s corpses out in the open after burning them down to the skeletons. Han shooting first, Alderran is genocided by the death star, princess Leia is tortured, albeit it off screen, we get the scene of the interrogation droid with all his “toys” floating towards her before the door closes. All the pilots die including lukes best friend biggs fighting the death star except wedge luke and a few y wings, It’s never been a “kids” story till arguably the prequels when Lucas secured rights to toys and went on to push story elements that could be made into toys to sell.
It’s always been a kid’s story, they just used to be able to get away with darker stuff a lot of the time, and I miss that in a lot of modern kid/family media. There’s still stuff for adults, but it feels like a lot of darker themes are toned down, though there’s some exceptions Steven Universe having themed of rape and abuse with Lapis and Jasper, or the few kids action shows/movies that still have characters die, even if they’re just goons. It’s not like all kids media sucks now or anything, it’s just harder to get away with rougher themes and more action without getting a PG-13/TV-14 rating
What don’t get is why people think something like star wars can’t have different tones. It’s a big universe with a big story. Just because the originals were these scifi epics doesn’t mean a different story set in the universe can’t be grounded and dark. Like how 40k can be really goofy and stupid but also really serious and gritty. It depends on the specific story being told within the setting. Not the setting as a whole
What don’t get is why people think something like star wars can’t have different tones
It has laser swords that’s why
And 40k has fungus space orcs that speak in cockney accents and have the power of belief. And yet still manages to have both really goofy stories, and very serious stories. The Ahriman Omnibus being a really serious story, and the infinite and the divine being a goofy story. Both being within the same universe, but two entirely different tones
Does 40k have laser swords?
They have what are called power swords. Which are conventional swords that can be sheathed in an energy field. So basically a lightsaber if the laser surrounded a regular sword
I stand by my adulterous point
Chainsaw swords, which are clearly more badass than laser swords.
I dig your point and that’s very fair.
But I’d also propose the following, if there were an honest young children’s show, think Blue’s Clues, but in the 40k universe, what would your reaction be beyond laughter? It seems just like such a weird choice, why play in that universe if you’re not going to talk about any of the madness that makes it 40k.
I dunno, it feels like we’re taking an all ages adventure and trying to make it like everything else.
in the original trilogy billions of people were killed, tortured, enslaved and all of that; in the prequel trilogy, it’s just as bad… Star Wars was never “light hearted”, just silly at times
Would you call the Lion King or Land Before Time “serious” movies? Or, like Star Wars and most children’s movies, are they generally fun but with occasional serious moments?
I mean, in Lion King and Land Before Time do:
- people get slaughtered?
- limbs get cut?
- younglings get slayed?
- there is slavery
- there is a fascist regime
If yes, then yes they aren’t light-hearted movies. You consider SW a light hearted movie just cause you haven’t put much of a thought behind what things really are, but SW isn’t light hearted at all lol. Unless, that is, for you that stuff is light hearted, but then I dunno what you may consider not light hearted
Almost all of what you’re talking about happens in the prequels, where Lucas tried to make it a more serious thing. Lion King and Land Before Time have way more impactful family deaths. (Admittedly, it’s been dozens of years since I’ve seen Land Before Time.)
But if you put the same degree of thought into it, most children’s movies aren’t light hearted.
Suure, Aalderan is in the sequel; Death Star 1 and 2 is in the sequel; Obi Wan cut the limbs off a few aliens in the first half of A New Hope. Slavery is shown with Princess Leia in the third instalment of OT. There are more women in the same scene with basically no clothes that make you think they aren’t “just” slaves. And I almost forgot, Han gets tortured in Ep 5 as well
Like, the hell are you smoking lol
And for all of this gratuitous awful and in your face evil, none of the movies garnered a rating that would shield a delicate child…
I guess I’m smoking whatever the
censorsrating boards were smoking?Edit: not censors, rating board. Also, here’s the definition of PG 13, the rating ABOVE the ones given to the OG/good trilogy:
Parents Strongly Cautioned, Some Material May Be Inappropriate for Children Under 13.
In other words, in the entire trilogy, which according to you is brutal and grim, there weren’t scenes deemed inappropriate for children under 13.
How many burning corpses are there in the Lion King? How many of Simba’s friends die on screen? Does anyone get tortured in the Lion King?
I feel like you need to go back and watch A New Hope again. It’s a lot darker than you seem to be remembering. And empire strikes back is straight up tragic, it isn’t even a little light hearted.
How many burning corpses are there in the Lion King? How many of Simba’s friends die on screen? Does anyone get tortured in the Lion King?
Yet all of this stuff warranted a PG rating because the rating board, like most people, including George Lucas, understood that these were movies for children and that the violence was pretty minimal. "I wasn’t supposed to say this then, or now, but it’s a film for 12-year-olds,” he says. “In the real world … critics … certain fans. They’re not very nice.” https://ew.com/movies/2017/04/13/star-wars-40th-anniversary-celebration/
Now maybe myself, the ratings board and the writer/director/creator have no idea what constitutes a children’s movie but I’d be surprised.
I’d have no problem with my 5 year old watching the land before time or the lion king (which she’s already seen), but I haven’t let her watch empire or rotj yet because I’m pretty sure they’ll scare her.
You’re acting like these things are the same but they aren’t.
but I haven’t let her watch empire or rotj yet because I’m pretty sure they’ll scare her.
And this makes it a serious children’s movie? Even George Lucas has explained these are movies for 12 year olds.
"I wasn’t supposed to say this then, or now, but it’s a film for 12-year-olds,” he says. “In the real world … critics … certain fans. They’re not very nice.”
https://ew.com/movies/2017/04/13/star-wars-40th-anniversary-celebration/
I really don’t get why people are refusing to admit that these are children’s movies.
As a whole, the first 6 movies follow a gradual tonal shift. Phantom Menace is goofy as hell because it’s the start of the adventure, when everyone thought the galaxy was a little more innocent. It gradually gets darker through 2 and 3, goes up an down with 4 and 5, before ending on a high note. Each movie explores different emotions, and represent the growth of the characters and the audience.
Andor is probably the best star wars they’ve done. It has flaws, but it’s so much better than Obi-Wan and Ashoka.
To each their own!
I think the first Mandalorian struck a beautiful balance of silly, fun and blending familiar terrain in a new way.
Andor, I get that people love a more grounded/real/mature show, I just find that a complete tonal mismatch for the Star Wars universe. If I want something gritty and real, there are many quality choices that don’t have laser sword people or tech with insane gaps. Just much harder to suspend my disbelief for a gritty show and a grounded show that requires that suspension feels like cheating.
But that’s just me, like I say, to each their own! It works for some people
Andor is hardly gritty, it just doesn’t have light sabers. It does feature competent writing and characters that do things based on their characterization. The empire is largely competent, and nothing really destroyed the timeline set in the movies. It’s more than hey member Vader, member Anakin is Vader.
Hey member the emperor. He’s back and you’re not sure why, and neither are we.
Why does science fantasy intrinsically conflict with seriousness in your mind? As if you can’t have lightsabers and a gritty tone. Idk it’s just a weird mutual exclusion you’ve created.
I think there’s too much suspension of disbelief for it to be both silly and serious.
The logic gaps make it significantly less serious. We forgive those for a fun adventure but not in a serious film. (I just used “magic laser sword people” as a joking shorthand.)
I think there’s too much suspension of disbelief for it to be both silly and serious.
I disagree, suspension of disbelief is a one shot thing. As long as you establish the rules of the universe to do so and then remain consistent, you can have as crazy of a world as you want and the tone can still be dark and gritty.
I personally think the whole “Star Wars was always goofy silly laser sword nonsense!” Is mostly just retroactive damage control to explain why the sequels plotlines weren’t trash by people who liked them. Outside of that group it’s always been serious. Millions of people die in the opening few scenes of the first Star Wars, Vader chokes out multiple people, a lot of rebels lose their lives.
I just think you’re looking at it through rose tinted glasses and seeing the OT in a reductionist way to claim that Star Wars hasn’t been serious at times since the beginning.
Sure, you can have a crazy world as long as things are consistent (Malazan is probably my favourite series and is deadly serious about a world with dragon gods etc.) But, Star Wars is also just intrinsically silly with characters and choices not really working with any sort of logic. “Ahhhh, a hole at the end of an open trench. And we know where the hole is. But we’d better fly along the entire OPEN trench to get there!” “Yes, we can tell when craft have life signs except when we choose not to!” etc. These gaps totally work in a fun adventure movie, we don’t really question it. But if you want to be treated as a serious movie, then naw, that’s not really stuff you tend to get away with.
Personally, I think this whole “Star Wars is serious and political! For realsies!” Is because a bunch of us don’t want to admit that we’re grown ups who still enjoy our favourite childhood movies. It’s like when people argue that the grand plot and themes of Star Wars are why people like them instead of the simple truth that for decades, they were the absolute best looking all ages science fiction adventures and that almost every kid wanted to fly an X wing or play with lightsabers. Just reeks of rationalization.
At the very least, the retroactive damage control doesn’t work for me as I fully agree the prequels were trash (terribly written but still felt like the jaunty Star Wars of before albeit dumber but with better laser sword fights) and the sequels were a clone of the first trilogy, trash and then I never saw the last one.
The best part of Andor is that we know nothing any of them do will ever have any impact at all.
Stealing the plans to the Death Star so the rebellions new wizard wonder boy can one shot the thing has no impact?
Shame about Manny Bothans though, really starting to like that character
Well, that’s not in the series, is it?
The series is about those people coming together, fighting for years, dying like flies, and achieving nothing at all.
- Stole from the Empire emboldening further rebellion while funding it.
- Lead a prison break, setting back the construction of the Death Star.
- Inspired a city to revolt against occupation.
achieving nothing at all.
It is exactly what someone who grown up in the empire would say…
Just like the rest of us!
It is just more a function of having to explain more because there is more to explain. The original trilogy feels lived in, but they only explain a small part of it because they don’t have to. Eventually, you get enough world building that you have to start explaining the smaller bits.
And since the Star Wars universe has more stories including those with non-Jedi, it means having to create smaller enemies that the heroes can fight against.
Star Wars is one of those situations where it gets worse the more you learn about it. The original trilogy set off a trend but we see where it’s now at. Kind of like watching Lost.
I dig world building my specific gripe was trying to make a “gritty” or “real” Star Wars. It’s a silly, fun adventure trilogy with dwarf bears fighting evil soldiers etc. Making it gritty and real feels very off. I think because sin a silly adventure movie, we understand the suspension of disbelief but in a gritty/real series, a lot of the sillier aspects/choices are much more noticeable.
To each their own, I just find the juxtaposition of silly/fun setting and gritty/real thriller to be too jarring for me personally.
It can be both. It’s also a world with armored bounty hunters and political stakes, so saying it’s only for dwarf space bears is a little disingenuous.
Star Wars is able to encapsulate the inane with themes that struggle with in the real world, only limiting it to just one or the other is antithetical to the very inspirations that it draws from.
With the context of Andor, to make it lighthearted would be a disservice to the deaths of the rebels who made the events of Episode IV possible. Moreover the events and themes from Andor and Rogue One are tonally aligned (would be weird if they weren’t). It’s one of the few pieces of SW that actually did a strong job connecting three sequential events of a story over 40 years later (coming from someone who enjoys 98% of what we’ve gotten), I personally think the reason it was able to work was due to the efforts to remove that halo filter of the force. By Andor not having that tonally lighter feeling to it the measure of success has a different sense. There’s also the morally grey side of rebellion, which tons of SW games cover but rarely done in canon.
I think for all those reasons it’s more than Andor just “trying” to grittify something lighthearted. Rather it’s the highlight of a necessary ruthlessness that it can take to bring about rebellion and that successes aren’t always light.
That’s how I feel anyway, there’s a strong tonal theme for each faction of Star Wars and I think rebels not having the same extent of cushioning from the force that the Jedi do makes for a more compelling piece :)
It can be both. It’s also a world with armored bounty hunters and political stakes, so saying it’s only for dwarf space bears is a little disingenuous.
I mean, it has political stakes in the same way that Indiana Jones has political stakes.
Star Wars is able to encapsulate the inane with themes that struggle with in the real world
Like, I feel this is just mythologizing our childhood movie. The theme is the same as pretty so many other children’s action adventure movie, a small band of rebels vs a bad tyrannical emperor/overlord/dictator. That doesn’t make these political or statements unless you want to go incredibly broad with a “fight against the odds” story which is pretty much every movie.
With the context of Andor, to make it lighthearted would be a disservice to the deaths of the rebels who made the events of Episode IV possible.
I mean, episodes 1 - 6 are pretty lighthearted stuff and a lot of rebels, jedi and Nabooians etc die to make those happen.
I’m not saying Andor can’t accomplish certain goals, highlight something different or show another side of the story. All I’m saying is that to me, personally, it’s Star Wars minus the joy. What’s left is an attempt to be serious in a very unserious galaxy. Nothing wrong with enjoying it, it’s just not for me! To consider the opposite, I would also have trouble if the Wire also had wisecracking aliens or something.
I feel like you’re the one mythologizing your childhood, and the original movies only seem ‘lighthearted’ when viewed through a lens of nostalgia and time passed. The original movies really aren’t that lighthearted if you really think about them, stuff filmed in the 70s just has that Patina of age that makes it hard to take seriously.
I think I’ve mostly said silly and fun rather than lighthearted.
But the basic idea is that they are at the same level of adventure, stakes and seriousness as most children’s movies. You wouldn’t call the Lion King a serious film would you? Even though it’s probably not light-hearted if you think about it. (Same is true for most children’s movies, think Land Before Time, most big Disney/Pixar classics etc.)
A more serious film, for example, probably grapples with Alderaan’s destruction and mentions it outside of two immediate reactions.
This is quite the take you have laid out in this thread.
Yeah, honestly I’m a little surprised. In the wider community (or at least, my highly non scientific polling of a soccer team, volleyball group and movie friends) it seems pretty understood that Star Wars is a great kids movie that mostly works for all ages.
Heck, even George Lucas has said they were for kids "I wasn’t supposed to say this then, or now, but it’s a film for 12-year-olds,” he says. “In the real world … critics … certain fans. They’re not very nice.”
But damn are people riled up about that and instead insisting it’s a very serious series and definitely not for kids.
It’s kinda wild.
Do you remember how Indiana Jones had actual Nazis in it? I’d say that’s about on par with the empire who were also inspired by the Nazi regime. Sure, there’s a lot else going on but Star Wars has always clearly been political.
If you really want to call Indiana Jones a political movie, that’s uhhh, your call. That seems a pretty silly reading of it but to each their own.
But I’m saying that the world becomes more gritty because it is getting explored more and it isn’t resetting to the status quo.
Star Wars has the journey of a farm kid becoming a laser sword wizard by way of being a fighter pilot.
To explain the MacGuffin of the plans, you now have to explain rebel spies, how the Empire does R&D, and why that flaw exists.
To explain why one of the characters in the prequel became a rebel spy, you know how have to explain how he got radicalized.
There is no way you can keep it a jaunty adventure by drilling that deep.
To explain the MacGuffin of the plans, you now have to explain rebel spies, how the Empire does R&D, and why that flaw exists.
Ehhh, I don’t think so. You could have a pretty similar jaunty caper to episode 4 to get the plans and then just have some wiz kid engineer see a potential flaw.
You can expand the world without making it gritty, see the Mandalorian.
If you want detailed explanations behind everything, then that’s closer? But it really doesn’t seem a requirement. Scientist puts in flaw because they understand the film’s logic which is Emperor = bad, rebels = good. Spies become rebel spies for the same reason all the fighter pilots and soldiers are on the rebels side, because they understand the logic, again, emperor = bad, rebels = good.
Hopefully Luthen gets his magic laser sword working for season 2
Sure? (I found the idea kind of silly and joyless so only watched the first couple.)
If you only watched two, you’ve just watched the buildup and stopped before the payoff. The show is basically structured in three-episode arcs.
To each their own! I just found it as all of the silly but none of the fun with which I associate Star Wars.
I also don’t watch a lot of tv so I’m pretty careful with my limited time.
Rofl.
@WhoRoger@lemmy.world & @freamon@lemmy.world I think this wins [SWSW].
You weren’t reminded of a disturbed magic space clown every time they said “the emperor” or “papaltine”?
There’s nothing wrong with wanting a fantasy setting to adopt a more adult tone and intention. Having more complex plots and dialogue. I think a of of the people liking Andor are in that category. They want to see Star Wars grow up and put behind the camp and cheery kid show shit.
I want more Christmas Specials and Ewoks. I want Star Wars to embrace the camp and cheery kid show shit. I am getting so god damn sick of all the dark, super serious stuff across every genre of media that’s been trending for over a decade now.
I’m all for variety. But honestly Marvel got the kids. Let Star Wars shift to the generations that grew up on it so they can get good writing again, and maybe R rated Vader.
I guess, and this is going to go down as well as most things I’ve said in this thread, it just seems childish. “I want my childhood stuff to grow up with me and become adult just like me!”
Beyond that, Star Wars is a goofy universe and doesn’t super hold up when you try to take it seriously. (They have robots who are inexplicably terrible shots? They can move things at faster than light but only just realized that means you can fly a ship, or even just a cement block with jets, through another? Robots exist and are cheap but human manual labour seems preferable for no discernible reason?) And if you strip away the goofy fun, you’re just left with Star Wars minus the Star Wars elements.
There are MANY good sci fi universes where complex plots, moral dilemmas and good dialogue exist. Those universes have been crafted to make it all work.
Honestly I was very surprised by the success of Andor, as I really thought the early reviews back when the show only had a couple of episodes really nailed it’s with the criticism of the show is slow, boring, and not Star Wars.
It doesn’t even pretend to be anything resembling what I know is Star Wars until the Prison Arc and by then I’m too burned out on the terrible Heist to care.
Clearly the show has an audience, I will never understand why, and it’s not like I can’t handle a show with a slow burn. It’s just Andor feels less like a slow burn and more like trying to keep warm with a single match during a blizzard.
From what I’ve gathered in this thread these are wrong thoughts so watch out! (Even though I’m inclined to believe you.)
I was crucified so hard back on Reddit for saying this, that I loaded up Lego star wars, and set up Andor as the P2 character and just kept killing him for twenty minutes.
I don’t even hate the show. I just hate all the people trying to Gaslight me into believing that I’m some kind of moron who is incapable of understanding the Brilliance of the show when in reality I understand “Empire Bad” just fine… and also it’s not exactly new information… I merely find it incredibly boring. I don’t respect the show enough to hate it.
By that I mean it doesn’t stir half emotions within me for me to even bother thinking about it beyond my initial impression.
Meanwhile I can tell you on every level how book of Boba Fett was a grand disappointment that served no purpose outside of assassinating the character of Boba Fett and hyping up the third season to a show that ironically I didn’t watch because of how bad book of Boba Fett butchered every character not nicknamed Mando.
As for Andor, it’s not even bad.
I don’t mean that it’s not bad, it’s that I can’t give an opinion on the show that doesn’t also apply to watching paint dry, because that is also defined by the three fundemental remarks slow, boring, and not Star Wars.
set up Andor as the P2 character and just kept killing him for twenty minutes.
Ahahaha
As for Andor, it’s not even bad. I don’t mean that it’s not bad, it’s that I can’t give an opinion on the show that doesn’t also apply to watching paint dry, because that is also defined by the three fundemental remarks slow, boring, and not Star Wars.
Brutal! But, based on the handful of episodes I watched, on point. Just such a weird choice. “You know that universe, famous for laser sword fights, exciting space battles and dialogue that winks at the camera? Let’s strip out all that joy and make a not particularly well written serious drama there!”
I basically agree with you on Boba Fett but I have to admit, getting super baked and (spoilers) watching him destroy stuff while riding a goddamn rancor was like watching my childhood sandbox dreams come to life.
Brutal! But, based on the handful of episodes I watched, on point. Just such a weird choice. “You know that universe, famous for laser sword fights, exciting space battles and dialogue that winks at the camera? Let’s strip out all that joy and make a not particularly well written serious drama there!”
I get the feeling this was written by a guy who really wished he was writing a Game of Thrones knock-off, but somehow failed upward and now he has to do that beloved franchise that prints money… Apparently in interviews he admitted to not liking Star Wars… Given how long it took for Stormtroopers to show up instead of “Guys in generic military uniforms”, I could kind of tell.
Launchs my friend, you’re kind of alright.
Apparently in interviews he admitted to not liking Star Wars…
Ballsy thing to admit but you’re right, that absolutely tracks.
Launchs my friend, you’re kind of alright.
Awww, thanks, right back atchya Queen!
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